Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Yellow Belle:

Thanks again. I would be glad to read your thoughts on the issue by PM or otherwise. However, I think many would benefit by reading them as well on the forum. but that’s up to you, of course.

I admire your ancestors’ fortitude in the time of the great tribulation. I was in the U.S. Navy and actually being at sea was just about the only part of the service I did enjoy!

Best,

Don

 

[pnewton]

Yellow Belle;5306498:

Could it be that paedophiles chose the priesthood to gain access to children?

There is not much doubt that this is part of the problem. I remember a stat I heard in a child abuse class of the increase of pedophiles in scouting groups. When the Boy Scouts instituted background checks and put policies in place to prevent child sexual abuse, the level of child sexual abuse in other scouting groups unrelated to the Boy Scouts grew.

Seminaries will never be able to always tell who is the predator and who is not.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Cinette:

You wrote:

“Could it be that pedophiles chose the priesthood to gain access to children?”

As I responded to this assertion on another thread, it is difficult to believe that many, if any, sexual pedophiles actually become priests or lay brothers for that reason. If that were their goal, there are far more expedient, less arduous and more certain ways to accomplish such through numerous youth organizations or as lay teachers. I seriously doubt that a man would actually undergo years of academic and theological training in a seminary in the hope that he might land a position that gives him explainable access to kids.

I believe that such individuals actually have a sincere interest in the religion and that through some psychological trick of the mind they compartmentalize their minds so that “part” of them genuinely condemns what the other “part” does.

I’m not a professional psychologist, so this is just my instinct.

Aside from the tragedy of the abuse itself, a side issue is the equal tragedy that inevitably some people are going to be wrongfully accused. Even if they escape prosecution and losing their positions, they wrongfully live under a cloud of suspicion brought to fruition by others. Thus, the ramifications of the evil that such sinners inflict are ponderous…

 

[ron77nyc]

Could it be that paedophiles chose the priesthood to gain access to children?

I believe that such individuals actually have a sincere interest in the religion and that through some psychological trick of the mind they compartmentalize their minds so that “part” of them genuinely condemns what the other “part” does.

I’m not a professional psychologist, so this is just my instinct.

Here is an interesting article from the National Catholic Reporter.

ncronline.org/news/accountability/disagreement-why-abuse-warnings-were-ignored

I enjoyed Don’s story: Pride’s Prison. I think pride has a lot to contribute to the problem.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Ron,

Thanks much for the link. I’m printing it out to read over. It looks extraordinarily interesting.

Thank you so much for reading “Pride’s Prison.” A professional Hollywood screenwriter (with numerous credits) read it and said he had seriously considered adapting it for a TV film. However, he ultimately decided against it because he thought that the juvenile part would be very difficult to cast due to its demanding nature, and that being by necessity a period piece that would add to production costs. I was just thrilled that he even seriously considered it. Moreover, he was kind enough to forward it to a friend of his who is an editor with a major publication house which publishes (among a great many other things) short story anthologies. It’s only been a week since the editor read it, so perhaps there’s still a change they will buy it.

I’m not concerned about the money, just the story’s message. So many kids who are victims of severe school bullying react to it exactly as I had done at the time, and as reflected in the story. Times have changed greatly from those days and the once unthinkable phenomenon of childhood suicide has become tragically less rare. All too often, parents’ reactions to such a family tragedy is: “We never saw it coming.” My story answers the question why in over fifty percent of bullying cases—according to State of Nevada statistics—that is.

Thanks again.

Don

 

[Cinette]

I came across a website about the persecution of innocent priests. It is lucrative business for so-called “victims” and their lawyers who made it their speciality.

This is shocking and sad that in our times such injustice can take place. It has saddened me so much.

We really need to keep praying for all priests everywhere. I have started a thread to pay tribute to all good and holy priests. I hope you will visit the thread :

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=345858&goto=newpost

Cinette

 

[Don_Schneider]

Yes, Cinette, I shall. What a wonderful idea and suggestion. I have a memory of one special priest to share as well and shall do so ASAP. Thank you.

In regard to the matter you mentioned regarding false allegations against priests, this is a tragedy as heinous as what spawned it. We must continue to pray for both victims and those falsely accused of complicity.

Don

 

[Cinette]

Yes, Cinette, I shall. What a wonderful idea and suggestion. I have a memory of one special priest to share as well and shall do so ASAP. Thank you.

In regard to the matter you mentioned regarding false allegations against priests, this is a tragedy as heinous as what spawned it. We must continue to pray for both victims and those falsely accused of complicity.

Don

Hi Don - I have copied your story on my Desktop to read later.

In that website about priests in crisis, I came across a letter written by a man advancing old age I think who was abused as a child by a family member and later by a priest. It was difficult but he managed to sort himself out over the years. He appears to understand human nature and is able to analise the situation and came to the conclusion that, because of the injustice that is being perpetrated against priests, he would never reveal his story. What a generous soul! I was touched. Although mind you I am all for transparancy and justice. The whole scandal has led to greed and injustice. It is a tragedy all round.

Cinette

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Ron, Yellow Belle and Cinette,

Ron, thanks for posting this illuminating link from the National Catholic Reporter. Although it doesn’t directly address the reason why people would on one hand devote their entire lives to God and then on the other sexually abuse children, it does most definitely attest to the validity of Yellow Belle’s contention that this problem antedates Vat II. As I told YB, I’m educable.

Cinette, thanks for intending to read my story when time allows. It’s most appreciated. The beginning might seem ominous to you, but please keep reading and you will understand. The beginning is peripherally intended as social commentary. By the time you begin the second half, you’ll see the point of the piece.

Please share it with friends if you feel it has merit. I know of one man who would give everything he has in material possessions to have read it shortly before the tragedy that has ever since clouded his family’s life. He’s a great man to have carried on as he has.

I agree that the man of whom you write is very noble. If only there were more such people in the world.

Thanks again.

Don

 

[ron77nyc]

Abuse is learned behavior that has been passed on from previous generations. It becomes part of the person the same way a stain becomes part of a fabric. Whatever occupation or vocation one chooses we bring those stains along with us because they don’t come out easily. We can hide them but only Jesus can wash them out. Until we encounter Christ we are only wearing the mask of religion. A good example of this would be Saint Paul.

Below is a website that covers the subject of abuse very thoroughly.
helium.com/knowledge/64260-breaking-the-cycle-of-abuse
1/40 helium.com/items/1423170-abuse
By Marea E. Johnson
Few things in life are more difficult than trying to break the cycle of abuse in families. Typically, these behaviors have been going on for several generations, and with most family members “sweeping everything under the rug”, the chances of breaking the cycle once and for all can look pretty dismal. That being said, it IS something that can realistically be done if family members can be brave enough to admit the truth, stop making excuses for the abusers, and take deliberate steps to ensure they do not repeat the same behaviors.

helium.com/items/765732-family-patterns-the-abused-that-become-abusers
Family patterns: The abused that becomes the abusers
I’m 39 years old, never to have children in my life. I know if I had children I would beat them with physical abuse to every extent. I was abused in my youth with physical and mental abuse by the parents. I guess once you went through fist and hand punch blows or setting at a dinner table and not asking for the butter, got a butter knife across the face. This was not your usual family, or is it the regular family gone unreported.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Jhareck:

You write extraordinarily well. Perhaps you should consider being a reporter, as your style of writing is reminiscent of such.

Ireland has pretty much been the last bastion of Christianity within “Post-Christian” Western Europe. I think the trend towards secular humanism would have ultimately reached your shores, abuse scandal or not. Some will simply use this as an excuse to say “See!” and advance their agenda.

I’ve often wondered what exactly was behind Ireland’s traditional, steadfast loyalty to the Church; more so than in any other country, including Italy (and sometimes I think Vatican City as well!). Sometimes I actually wonder that had England remained Catholic would Ireland have gone Protestant after the “Reformation” out of sheer perversity, such was the Irishman’s (understandable) hatred for the Brits.

My grasp of Irish history is not all that I would like it to be, I confess. Were there ever any native Irish figures analogous to Knox, for example, who attempted to lead the Irish away from the Church? If not, why do you think that was?

Thanks,

Don

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Ron:

You wrote:

“Abuse is learned behavior that has been passed on from previous generations. It becomes part of the person the same way a stain becomes part of a fabric”

In regard to physical abuse, this might well be so. People do indeed inherit rash tempers which, when combined with a societal ethos that readily accepts corporal punishment of children by parents and other authority figures, readily foster excesses in regard to punishment. However, in regard to sexual abuse of youngsters, in my mind that is more difficult to explain along such lines.

Has there ever been an admitted child sexual abuser who hasn’t claimed he had been so abused himself as a kid? Anyone can make such a claim, which in most cases is impossible to prove or disprove.

What I’m trying to say is that while it is easy to understand religious figures getting carried away—perhaps little by little as time progresses—with hitting when given authority over children with little or no oversight, and not really seeing an inner conflict with their religious values under the “spare the rod and spoil the child” mentality so prevalent for so many years, it’s decidedly more difficult to rationalize away sexual abuse.

For a man to maintain the façade of being deeply religious while committing heinous sexual sins in the eyes of man and the Church, that is difficult to comprehend.

Don

 

[ron77nyc]

For a man to maintain the façade of being deeply religious while committing heinous sexual sins in the eyes of man and the Church, that is difficult to comprehend.

Don

Any type of abuse, physical, sexual or brainwashing, is done to establish domination and control. Look at some of these stories.

religionnewsblog.com/19228/religious-cult
The Californian People’s Temple group is widely regarded as the “cultus classicus”. In 1978, 900 of its members committed mass suicide at their settlement in Guyana, on the orders of their American leader.

In 1981, the Moonies, led by Korean-born businessman Sun Myung Moon, were branded by the ‘Daily Mail’ as “the church that breaks up families” and accused them of brainwashing. The Moonies sued for libel, but lost heavily. A jury awarded the ‘Mail’ a record-breaking £750,000 in costs.

In 1984, 10 salad bars in Oregon were contaminated with salmonella typhimurium by the Bhagwan Shree Ramjeesh/Osho group. 751 people were affected, but none were killed.

The Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995 was carried out by members of the religious group Aum Shinrikyo.

Today, radical terrorist groups are the most recent example of organisations operating like cults to recruit members, according to Ian Haworth. He says, “Radicalisation means exactly the same as brainwashing,” and, “those in Muslim communities in particular need to be made very aware of this while the threat of terrorism continues.”

 

[EAndrew]

This may well have been mentioned. I don’t think these abuses are sins of
sensuality (except of sick minds), but of authority. That some of this was also common to other religious frameworks or even non-sectarian schools doesn’t go far to justify
anything. Remember the adage “Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely”?
It is just this, to use power with the intent of harm, to prove their moral
ascendency. God, regardless, has no need for either church or worshippers. The church
presumably cannot do without God, or a god. By their actions you can tell who they
worship. As Mother Teresa said “I show you my grace by what I do, how do you
show yours?”

Once the excuses started, I realized more than ever these were people of the lie.

 

[josie_L]

This is just the tip of the Iceberg. I am a Historian by vocation and so therefore I have a grasp of the sweep of History. The truth is there if you are willing to see it. The Roman Church has a consistent history as an abusive system. Starting in 1200 until 1800 the Roman Church has abused, tortured, and killed thousands of people who disagreed with its teachings. It has sanctioned slavery, mistreatment of indigenous peoples by Spain, Portugal, and other Catholic European powers. It has opposed Science by choking freedom of inquiry and has silenced those who challenged Rome in the field of the intellect. Starting in the 1800s it has opposed Democratic principles and social democratic principles which most of us take for granted today. The Roman Church has fought tooth and nail against freedom of Religion and freedom of conscience.

I have been surfing the web and going to different Catholic forums and what I see there is what I see here, Catholics trying to make excuses for and downplay and cast doubt on the victims of this scandal Ireland. I find such behaviour sickening and morally repulsive.

I left the Roman Church not long ago over Doctrinal issues. If I hadn’t done it then this scandal certainly would have caused me to leave. Because this is just yet another expose in what has become an endemic institutional behaviour, IE the Roman System with its combination of wrong Dogmas, Clerical Celibacy, and Hierarchical Pope who has absolute authority to the point of allegedly being infallible are the actual causes of this long train of abuses and institutional behaviour, from the 600 year reign of terror of the Inquisition, the enslaving of native peoples, opposition to Science, freedom of Religion, liberty of Conscience, Social Democratic principles,and the silencing of Scientific and academic inquiry.

This latest scandal is the last straw for me. I really don’t care what Roman Catholic Apologists say now. As far as I am concerned, based on the behaviour of the Roman Church in this and other scandals and its barbarous callous behaviour, I know that these “Apologists” are distorters of truth and in some cases have been liars whose only interest is to justify Rome and “prove” the Roman Church right at the expense of facts and truth.

When Lech Walesa in Poland started “Solidarity” and the Polish shipyard workers went on strike the Communist government sent negotiators to talk it out. Lech Walesa climbed up a scaffolding with a bullhorn and shouted

“We don’t believe your lies anymore”

to the government representatives.

I say now

to the Popes

to the Hierarchy and Magisterium of the Roman Church

to all the Roman Catholic Apologists and “Catholic Answers”

I Don’t Believe Your Lies Anymore

Please go throw your tantrums somewhere else.

 

[Tybourne]

Please go throw your tantrums somewhere else.

I disagree- the comments on this thread do seem a little defensive or to downplay what happened in Ireland instead of focussing on the culture of clericalism that enabled the abuse. We should not be afraid to hear criticism even if it’s voiced harshly or in an unbalanced way.

 

[Archie]

“criticism even if it’s voiced harshly or in an unbalanced way”

How is it possible to express too much “harsh” “unbalanced” outrage at the mass abuse and murder of the innocents over and over again?

I thank God I am not desensitized to these atrocities and still understand that we are to pursue truth.

 

[pnewton]

“criticism even if it’s voiced harshly or in an unbalanced way”

How is it possible to express too much “harsh” “unbalanced” outrage at the mass abuse and murder of the innocents over and over again?

Then perhaps instead of unbalanced or harsh we should say blind, ignorant and illogical outrage. One is not balanced by blindly accepting every report and story as gospel. Should we all still hate England for its atrocities? Or the Presbyterian Church for its wrongs? No. It is better to be balanced than blind. If we are too sensitive to the wrongs, then the pursuit of truth is not possible.

 

[Archie]

"we should say blind, ignorant and illogical outrage. One is not balanced by blindly accepting every report and story as gospel. Should we all still hate England for its atrocities? Or the Presbyterian Church for its wrongs? No. It is better to be balanced than blind. If we are too sensitive to the wrongs, then the pursuit of truth is not possible. "

I am not ignorant or blind or illogical. When there are mountains of data and evidence for us to look at and certain people continue to try to get everyone to not look at that evidence, then those certain people are the ones promoting willfull blindness, or looking the other way.

We are called to expose deeds of unrighteousness by finding facts and data and evidence to the best of our ability.

 

[ron77nyc]

We are called to expose deeds of unrighteousness by finding facts and data and evidence to the best of our ability.

I suppose the most important thing to do is make sure we don’t accept Luther’s doctrine of faith alone. If we get that straight we’ll be OK.