Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[JosieElaine]

Dear andrewmoquin :
Read 1 Peter 4 :“For the time is come where judgement must begin at the house of God”.

 

[ron77nyc]

Statements of the “official” church are, in my opinion, becoming increasingly irrelevant and foolish. We have some wonderful clerics and religious, thank God, however I am increasingly cynical regarding (my) church in which children and First Nations people were, and continue to be exploited and their identity demeaned and devalued. Please don’t explain over and over, or whine about “guilt” - fix the problems. I have been a Catholic for 64 years and I am no longer gullible - or trusting. I love the people in my church and will not leave it, but I don’t want to die as a member of a self-serving institution of which I am ashamed.

This problem of absolute power was dealt with in the 12th century. Why does it keep coming back and why doesn’t anyone put a stop to it?

religionfacts.com/christianity/people/bernard_clairvaux.htm
St. Bernard of Clairvaux (Bernardus Clarevallis) is one of the most prominent personalities of the twelfth century, of the entire Middle Ages, and of church history in general. He gave a new impulse to monastic life, influenced ecclesiastical affairs outside of monasticism in the most effective manner, and contributed not a little toward awakening an inner piety in large circles.

The Church as organized, with its hierarchy, at whose head stands the Roman bishop, as successor of Peter and vicar of Christ, is to Bernard the exhibition of the kingdom of Christ on earth. On this account it must enjoy perfect autonomy, having a right of supervision over everything in Christendom, even over princes and states. It even has a right over the worldly sword (De consid., IV, 7; cf. Epist., cclvi, 1). Nevertheless Bernard is no blind adherent of the views of Gregory VII. In the first place Bernard demands a perfect separation between secular and spiritual affairs; the secular as such is to be left to the secular government, and only for spiritual purposes and in a spiritual sense is the pope to have supervision (De consid., i, 6). **But Bernard is also an opponent of the absolute papal power in the Church. **As certainly as he recognizes the papal authority as the highest in the Church, so decidedly does he reprove the effort to make it the only one. Even the middle and lower ranks of the Church have their right before God. To withdraw the bishops from the authority of the archbishops, the abbots from the authority of the bishops, **that all may become dependent on the curia, means to make the Church a monster **(De consid., iii, 8).

 

[pnewton]

Statements of the “official” church are, in my opinion, becoming increasingly irrelevant and foolish.

That has been the way the world has viewed the Church since the begining, as St. Paul pointed out. What I find equally foolish is how people continue to rely on the same sources for information that have proven false to the public year after year.

This problem of absolute power was dealt with in the 12th century. Why does it keep coming back and why doesn’t anyone put a stop to it?

As the Church has no temporal power in Ireland I do not know who this could apply to. The media perhaps? They seem to be in more control than any one else.

 

[ron77nyc]

As the Church has no temporal power in Ireland I do not know who this could apply to. The media perhaps? They seem to be in more control than any one else.

Victims were helpless because the Church was above the law.

cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/20/ireland.catholic.report.abuse/#cnnSTCVideo
The Department of Education comes under harsh criticism in the report, which calls the government agency “deferential and submissive” toward the religious orders that ran the institutions. Its inspection system “was fundamentally flawed and incapable of being effective.”

Police and parish priests, the Department of Education and the schools themselves fielded complaints about the abuse, with mixed results, the report says.

The turning point came in 1996, when state broadcaster RTE aired a documentary detailing abuse suffered by former pupils at St. Vincent’s Industrial School in Dublin. RTE followed that up with a documentary series three years later looking at the abuse suffered by children throughout the entire care system.

 

[JosieElaine]

In the province of Quebec in Canada, there was no such thing as a Department of Education in the government. All and I mean ALL schools, colleges and universities for the francophones were under the total control of the Catholic church until the mid-1960, for administration, for programming, for curriculum etc. All hospitals for francophones were also under the control of the church. This “privilege” was given to them by the British after the conquest in 1759, so it lasted for more than 200 years.
In New-Bruswick, Canada, schools, hospitals, colleges, universities, and social services programs were also under the control of the church until the early 1970. I do not know about the other provinces. The abuse that happened in the school where I was teaching in 1974 was in a diocese-owned and operated catholic school.
This to say that, although we have to remember that tremendous good was done by those priests, nuns, monks and friars who owned and operated these institutions, tremendous power was given to them and “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

 

[pnewton]

Victims were helpless because the Church was above the law.

cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/20/ireland.catholic.report.abuse/#cnnSTCVideo

I guess you and CNN have a different opinion of “absolute power.” But thanks for the link. It reaffirms my opinion.

 

[ron77nyc]

I guess you and CNN have a different opinion of “absolute power.” But thanks for the link. It reaffirms my opinion.

Well can also say anything less than absolute power also corrupts. CNN is only reporting what the Ryan Commision found. Do you have some information that proves otherwise?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

No, I was never physically or sexually abused by anyone. I do not think I want to read about “hurt feelings” by Father Groeschel.

I am experiencing righteous indignation and vexation at gross atrocities committed agains “the least of these”.

I cannot understand why I am reading so many weak excuses and rationalizations in this thread.

The CC made some very poor decisions many decades ago in how to handle these infractions by their religious order members. Then the deceptions built upon the former ones and we have the situation we now have.

and those choices also created a climate for fraud. If the CC had not hidden what was going on, moved these offenders around like chess pieces and paid victims off-they wouldn’t have such a lack of credibility now.

I grieve for these victims, and for the good Priests and Sisters who get tarred with the large brush of “abuser” by an unthinking public.

I spent my entire childhood in Catholic school and never saw a child struck in anger.

 

[JosieElaine]

I did and some of what I saw was done in front of a full church.
My eight year-old brother had what we would now call attention deficit disorder. He was also an altar boy (1952). When at High Mass on Sunday morning, he would be looking somewhere else and not bring the large prayer-book the priest was using to say Mass right on time, he would get whacked loudly on the side of the head and called “stupid”. I still remember the sound of it. Not one person witnessing that ever said a word, not even my mother and my father. And my parents forced him to go serve Mass until he was 14, became taller and stronger than my father, and said No, NO more! Of course, in the 1950, whacking and spanking children was part of the culture. But sexual abuse was a sin from the beginning, was it not ? it stands on a different level than strict discipline and corporal punishement. My brother is still a practicing catholic, by the way.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I did and some of what I saw was done in front of a full church.
My eight year-old brother had what we would now call attention deficit disorder. He was also an altar boy (1952). When at High Mass on Sunday morning, he would be looking somewhere else and not bring the large prayer-book the priest was using to say Mass right on time, he would get whacked loudly on the side of the head and called “stupid”. I still remember the sound of it. Not one person witnessing that ever said a word, not even my mother and my father. And my parents forced him to go serve Mass until he was 14, became taller and stronger than my father, and said No, NO more! Of course, in the 1950, whacking and spanking children was part of the culture. But sexual abuse was a sin from the beginning, was it not ? it stands on a different level than strict discipline and corporal punishement. My brother is still a practicing catholic, by the way.

It’s a sign of Grace that he is after being treated so badly.

 

[pnewton]

Do you have some information that proves otherwise?

*Proves *otherwise? I think proof is not something present or sought in this situation. However, everyone ought to read the report itself. It was linked earlier. I did. I do not know that any reporters did from the stories I have read. There is a blurring of the term “abuse” and some definite methodology issues. It would not stand up either in a court of law or as a scientific analysis.

 

[JosieElaine]

I personnally think than even worse than the abuse that happened in the past is the fact that some people in the present are trying either to deny or minimize it. Being believed and validated in your suffering goes a long way towards healing and forgiving. Why are some people who have themselves not been sexually abused have so much difficulty in believing those who have is beyond me. How is it possible to forgive when there is no recognition, regret, remorse or repentance from the sins of the institution one belongs to ?

 

[pnewton]

I personnally think than even worse than the abuse that happened in the past is the fact that some people in the present are trying either to deny or minimize it. Being believed and validated in your suffering goes a long way towards healing and forgiving. Why are some people who have themselves not been sexually abused have so much difficulty in believing those who have is beyond me. How is it possible to forgive when there is no recognition, regret, remorse or repentance from the sins of the institution one belongs to ?

I have seen no one try to deny that such things happened. However, even your own post shows a problem in the way we approach this issue. You switch twice from talking about abuse and then sexual abuse. If we are to address the problem of child sexual abuse, we need to stop broadening the term and focus on the problem. We also do not need to open our eyes by blinding ourselves. Yes, child sexual abuse occurs. Yet also, sometimes are people are falsely accused, both by children and overzealous child advocates. The older the child and the more sophisticated the child, the more likely an accusation could be untruthful. When one is dealing with teenage delinquents, the problem is very difficult. We must protect the innocent, but we do not always know who is innocent.

Our hands are far from tied, though. We have learned how to set rules that make predation difficult and will lend evidence against the violator when he is found out. We have raised awareness in the Churches and even run background checks on all that deal with children. While we can not go back and time and know who is telling the truth fifty years ago, we can set boundries that make lying today difficult.

BTW, you know Baptist are next in line. As the second biggest group of Christians the SBC has already had to address the issue. Independent Churches will always fly under the radar of the media because of their lack of centralized records.

I implore all Christians, instead of rallying around the detractors of Catholicism, learn what we have learned and act before scandal rocks your world. After all, as we make it difficult for child predators to seek the priesthood, like any other predator they will seek new hunting grounds.

 

[JosieElaine]

Yes, I read that about the Baptists . Shame on them too. In my teaching career, I have worked almost exclusively with age 5-7 pupils. The ones who divulged that they were abused, it was determined by the courts that they were efffectively abused. On the other hand , I have heard that some students aged 14-15 sometimes accuse their teachers of abuse when they have failed too many tests. And some at that age are trying to seduce their teachers. So, you are right, things are complicated. But I know that many school systems in Canada have put in place programs where two or more teachers are in the classrooms at the same time, or parent volunteers, or older students; it is more difficult to abuse a child when you have an audience. That would cover physical or verbal abuse at least. It should be the same for Bible camps, religious studies, etc. My Pastor never closes his office door when someone is with him; it is a protection for him. And our Sunday-school teachers work in teams and also the law requires that everyone working with children goes through a police check. Unfortunately, this police check only covers the past five years.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

[There is a blurring of the term “abuse” and some definite methodology issues. It would not stand up either in a court of law or as a scientific analysis.

You keep criticising the methodology of the report in a way that makes it clear you understand nothing of the purpose or scope of the Commission that produced it. The report cannot be used in criminal proceedings partly because the Irish Christian Brothers successfully sued the Commission in 2004 to prevent publication of the real names of their members. Although the commission heard evidence under oath, and lawyers representing all sides were present, admissions made to it cannot be used as a basis for criminal cases. Believe it or not, the concepts of ‘privilege against self-incrimination’ and ‘innocent until proven guilty’ are not unknown in Ireland.

Neither was the report ever intended to be a scientific analysis. The Commission was established on 23 May, 2000, pursuant to the “Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse Act 2000” and given three primary functions:

**to hear evidence of abuse from persons who allege they suffered abuse in childhood, in institutions, during the period from 1940 or earlier, to the present day;

to conduct an inquiry into abuse of children in institutions during that period and, where satisfied that abuse occurred, to determine the causes, nature, circumstances and extent of such abuse;

and to prepare and publish reports on the results of the inquiry and on its recommendations in relation to dealing with the effects of such abuse.**

Further information on the structure of the Commission, its functions, its confidential and investigation committees and its statutory powers can be found here. childabusecommission.ie/about/index.html
[/quote]

 

[ron77nyc]

*Proves *otherwise? I think proof is not something present or sought in this situation. However, everyone ought to read the report itself. It was linked earlier. I did. I do not know that any reporters did from the stories I have read. There is a blurring of the term “abuse” and some definite methodology issues. It would not stand up either in a court of law or as a scientific analysis.

This is exactly what Bill Donahue of the Catholic League said. “It would not stand up in a court of law” is usually what the lawyer of a guilty man says on all the cop shows.

 

[JosieElaine]

Father Charles, a very close friend of my family, abused boys, aged 5-7, in four different parishes, and in my own school, between 1974-1981. When the bomb exploded, he had the decency to admit his guilt to the judge. His rationale : “I am guilty and I do not want to submit those boys to painfully re-live what has happened.” For that, I have some respect left for him. I have none for those Irish Christian brothers who are still trying to protect themselves.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Father Charles, a very close friend of my family, abused boys, aged 5-7, in four different parishes, and in my own school, between 1974-1981. When the bomb exploded, he had the decency to admit his guilt to the judge. His rationale : “I am guilty and I do not want to submit those boys to painfully re-live what has happened.” For that, I have some respect left for him. I have none for those Irish Christian brothers who are still trying to protect themselves.

Sadly, the Irish victims may have to rely on their abusers’ ‘better natures’ to get justice through the court system:

The Christian Brothers and Dermot Ahern, the Irish justice minister, have both called on members of religious orders who sexually and physically abused children in their care to contact the gardai and confess to their crimes.

They said anyone guilty of abuse should be prepared to face the legal consequences. Admissions made to the Ryan Commission cannot be used by gardai as evidence.

“If they have any conscience they should come forward now,” Ahern said yesterday. “It should not be necessary in the light of those dark days for the authorities in the state to have to bring them kicking and screaming into the criminal justice system. I would appeal to them to hand themselves over.

“There are undoubtedly many out there who have not come before the courts, either because of lack of evidence, or shame or fear on the part of their victims to come forward and make a complaint. But these religious orders have a responsibility, even at this late stage, to their victims.”

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6396390.ece

 

[pnewton]

“It would not stand up in a court of law” is usually what the lawyer of a guilty man says on all the cop shows.

It is also what the lawyer of an innocent man would say. How do you know the difference? Telepathy?

This is the problem with this crime. Often it is not possible to know which is the guilty party and which is the innocent party. Do we punish everyone or no one? This is why it is so critical to prevent as much as possible interaction between children and adult caretakers out of sight and sound of all others, especially one on one.

As far as the Christian brothers, if they are guilty, their behavior is abominable. For one was not guilty and falsely accused, one would find their behavior understandable.

Just like one can not understand what it is like to be a victim of child sexual abuse without having been there, one can not understand what it is like to be falsely accused of child sexual abuse without having been there. How I wish in either case there was a way to know. I have no sympathy for either such criminal.

 

[Joe_Brown]

My response to the recent news about sexual abuse in Irish schools: “There will be no greater suffering then a fallen priest on judgement day.”

“And all men are ready to pass judgment on the priest as if he was not a being clothed with flesh, or one who inherited a human nature.” – Saint John Chrysostom

The Church is run by men, and men sin.

Look at the Twelve Apostles. Judas Iscariot betrayed Christ then hung himself… Read More

Peter betrayed Christ by denying him three times, and the rest abandoned him when he needed them most.

The only one who didn’t betray Jesus was John – he was the only Apostle at cavalry. Ironically he was the only one to die a natural death.

Now most priests that do perform sexual abuse have sexual complexes, that most likely existed in some form before there ordination. 99% of the priests in the world handle celibacy fine, and have been handling it fine for around 1500 years.

Celibacy is a really good thing, and if you would talk to any seminaries who are strongly discerning celibacy they will attest to how great it is. It certainly is not for everyone, the vast majority of people should get married – sex is a good thing.

From Aaron