Irish archbishop horrified by confirmation of unmarked babies' graves [CC]

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Children in those homes were very rarely taken to hospital or was a Doctor called in to treat them.
Not surprisingly the conditions in those homes would have been brought to public attention.
Bessborough in Blackrock had a very high mortality rate where children were only treated at the very last instance resulting in the child’s death.
There were also vaccine trials carried out in Bessborough without the childrens mothers consent or knowledge.
All this is well documented and records of this practice were altered to hide these trials.
 
Does anyone know with some certainty, what standard practice is around the western world for dealing with the remains of aborted babies?
The baby is disposed of in the medical waste bin, which is incinerated.

What is medical waste?
Medical waste is defined as waste consisting of:
a) a needle, syringe with needle, surgical instrument or other article that is discarded in the course of medical, dental or veterinary practice or research and has a sharp edge or point capable of inflicting a penetrating injury on a person who comes into contact with it; or
b) human tissue, bone, organ, body part or foetus; or
c) a vessel, bag or tube containing a liquid body substance; or
d) an animal carcass discarded in the course of veterinary research or medical practice or research; or
e) a specimen or culture discarded in the course of medical, dental or veterinary practice or research and any material that has come into contact with such a specimen or culture; or
f) any other article or matter that is discarded in the course of medical, dental or veterinary practice or research and that poses a significant risk to the health of a person who comes into contact with it.
 
I agree but the Irish media hate the church in Ireland and thats putting it mildly. Any chance they get at all they love to stir things and everytime people fall for everything the media say. Sadly I just read an article from an Irish website and the comments after it were showing enormous hatred for the church. One in particular comment which I see time and time again went something like ‘I’ll never darken a church again and anyone that still continues to support and attend such an organisation is a hypocrite’. I could almost feel their hatred but for me being an Irish Catholic I love Jesus and His church though to be honest I’m very fearful for the church in Ireland. Please pray for her. Thank you.
I too read similar kind of comments. Yes, none of the commenters have ever sinned. :tsktsk:

MJ
 
THIS IS NOT FAKE NEWS! I am Irish. It is true. I despise the term fake news, it now gets slapped onto any news that an individual doesn’t like.
I don’t think Bill Donohue, President of the Catholic League would stoop that low to print on news just because he didn’t like it. Get a copy of the Commission’s report and compare it with the media hype.

Bill Donohue comments on accusations made on March 7 by Ireland’s Prime Minister, Enda Kenny:

The insanity over the “mass grave” story in Tuam has now reached a fever pitch. The Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, says that the Bon Secours Sisters took the babies of unwed mothers and “sold them, trafficked them [and] starved them.”

That is a serious charge, and serious accusations demand serious evidence. He provided none. Kenny offered not one scintilla of evidence to back up his fantastic story. Not surprisingly, he found a kindred soul in the U.S. in Niall O’Dowd of Irish Central; he quoted his remarks with relish the next day.

Here is what Kenny said on March 7: “No nuns broke into our homes to kidnap our children. We gave them up to what we convinced ourselves was the nuns’ care.” That is all true. But then he goes on to say that the nuns sold the children, trafficked them, and starved them.

The nuns did not sell children to bidders. They placed abandoned and often abused children—abandoned and abused by their mothers and/or fathers—up for adoption. Customarily, as one would expect, the adopting parents would make a donation to the nuns. That’s what people do as a demonstration of their gratitude. But from the Kenny-O’Dowd account, they would have us believe that the nuns ran some kind of auction, selling the kids off to the highest bidder.

Children were “trafficked”? That conjures up images of slave labor. This is a new charge. Kenny and O’Dowd need to share their evidence with the rest of us. Otherwise, we might conclude they are liars.

Children were “starved” to death? This is the most damning of the accusations. Kenny just throws this charge out there hoping it will stick. O’Dowd is more specific, claiming that some of the children in the care of the nuns died of “marasmus,” or malnutrition.

The following explanation of why the children died in the Mother and Baby Home operated by the Bon Secours Sisters was given by an Irish student of this subject.

“For the years 1925-1926, 57 children, aged between one month and three years, (plus two, aged six and eight years) died in the Children’s Home. Of this number, 21 died of measles, other causes were convulsions, gastroenteritis, bronchitis, tuberculosis, meningitis, and pneumonia.”

The researcher also listed other factors. “Other causes of death were as follows: pertussis (otherwise known as whooping cough), anaemia, influenza, nephritis (kidney inflammation), laryngitis, congenital heart disease, enteritis, epilepsy, spinal bifida, chicken pox, general oedema (dropsy), coeliac disease, birth injury, sudden circulatory failure, and fit.”

A total of 22 diseases is cited, but there is no mention of marasmus. Why not? This takes on greater significance when we consider the author of this description: it was none other than Catherine Corless, hero of the “mass grave” fame. It can be found on the last two pages of her 2012 journal article, “The Home.”

Let’s say Corless is wrong about this; perhaps she overlooked the marasmus. The real issue here is not whether kids died of malnutrition—let’s assume they did—the real issue is O’Dowd’s intellectual inability to conceive of any reason other than intentional starvation.

Dr. Jacky Jones worked for the Irish health services for 37 years in the field of health education and health promotion. She says that “high infant mortality rates were normal for certain groups of people in Ireland until the 1970s.” She further notes that “Children from poor families were four times more likely to die before their first birthday.”

Now ask yourself this: Were the children of indigent unmarried mothers in the early twentieth century more likely or less likely to be part of that segment of the population as described by Dr. Jones?

Those children who were dropped off at the convents were not the sons and daughters of the rich. They were the abandoned and often abused offspring of parents who could not, or would not, care for them. That some of the children may have been suffering from malnutrition when they were acquired by the nuns would hardly be surprising, and it is just as unsurprising to think that some died “before their first birthday,” as Dr. Jones said.

If this is too hard for O’Dowd to understand, then perhaps he thinks that the reason why more people die in hospitals than in hotels is because hospitals are known for killing people. It would never occur to him that the sick and dying are more likely to check themselves into a hospital than a hotel. Get the point, Niall?

It is malicious to accuse anyone of intentionally starving children to death without proof, and it is even worse when an entire order of nuns is charged with doing so. That is what the Prime Minister of Ireland has done, and that is what the founder of Irish Central has done.

One more thing. Children who suffer from marasmus are typically emaciated. Click here to see pictures taken of children in the care of the Bon Secours Sisters. Do they look emaciated? The pictures, by the way, are posted on Irish Central!
Catholic League
 
Now we have the news of similar deeds of darkness at at least 9 other homes.

And the anger is righteous and wide and deep.

It is too much; and I join others in severing my ties with the Church here.

How can we do otherwise? In all faith and conscience? We are facing a holocaust scenario .
Many thousands in other “graves” Massacre of the Innocents.

The baby and children’s deaths and illegal burials decade after being starved to death and neglected .

No church dignitary here is denying it as the evidence and fact are crystal clear.
The Church did this. Everyone in charge knew of it. They have admitted it openly in sermons at cathedrals, especially at Tuam.

When Bon Secours sold that house and moved, they exhumed the Sisters they had buried there in proper graves and reburied them with a monument. Leaving the 800 babies hidden like so much rubbish

The historian did a wonderful work.

It has made me ill. Longing to leave this world and this country that has been so appallingly treated.
 
What gets me is CatholicCulture.org and Vatican Radio is printing this fake news as if it were true.
IRELAND’S “MASS GRAVES” STORY IS FAKE NEWS
It IS true. period. I have seen this with my own eyes living near Tuam as I do.

So to you the Archbishop and Bishops who admit freely the truth of this in churches and cathedrals here are what? Lying?

Hard to face but truth.

I am sick to my inner being with what was done.

Please, honour the dead babies.
 
It wasn’t a septic tank, it was a pit grave. Rather common in Europe to this day. They built caskets.

The government was running an unmarked grave for kids nearby too, but that’s okay for some reasons.

And, yes, some died of malnutrition and many other old timey childhood diseases because, as much as they don’t like to admit it, Ireland was practically a third world country for a long time. There’s a reason lots of people left the place. That combined with the poor prenatal care of women in crisis pregnancies and these things happen. The infant mortality rate for the unwed mothers the nuns cared for was very high.

It’s not like the nuns were intentionally murdering people.

This whole story just seems like another excuse to whine about the Church.
This is an unbelievable comment.

These children died mostly from malnutrition; they had no hope of surviving any of the then common childhood illnesses because they were so malnourished by the nuns taking ‘care’ of them. They were seen as ‘children of sin’ as though we are not all born with original sin!
http://www.thejournal.ie/pj-haverty-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-3270398-Mar2017/

There are still survivors of these ‘homes’ alive today and giving testament to their experiences at the hands of those who claim to follow Christ ** Don’t you get it? What happened to ‘Whatever you do to the least ofd these my children, you do unto me?’

‘Whine about the church’? Oh, Irish people should just accept that these poor children didn’t deserve food or care, didn’t deserve a Christian burial, could be taken without permission from their mothers and sold to Americans - yes, child trafficking - for adoption, and used as guinea pigs for untested vaccines?? See links below.

We are not ‘whining’ about the church. We are horrified, appalled, heartbroken and betrayed by the church that claims to be the true church of God. It seems perfectly clear that the people carrying out these atrocities ( and don’t get me started on the sexual abuse of children in Ireland by the clergy) do not know God and do not know Jesus Christ.

http://www.thejournal.ie/baby-deaths-mother-baby-homes-1506811-Jun2014/

https://perceptionsofpregnancy.com/2014/09/18/irelands-lost-babies-bbc-documentar/
 
There’s no denying, and mere words can never fully describe what our hearts are screaming concerning the 796 remains.

But there’s just something that’s gnawing at my stomach!
And that’s the doings and the deeds that LED UP TO placing (not ‘dumping’) the babies and toddlers in the mass grave.

Baby trafficking? Selling them to the highest bidder? Deliberate starvation or malnutrition? Etc etc etc. REALLY??? I’m having one bloody hell of a hard time believing the sisters committed such indescribable atrocities!
And there’s that “pathological component” that’s somehow being (conveniently?) left out of the picture.

Friends, you want to make such serious accusations against the sisters, you better have some serious PROOF that such atrocious crimes were committed by them.
THAT’S the issue.

Rosebud77, you said, “It is too much; and I join others in severing my ties with the Church here.”
Sever ties huh? To whom then shall you go.
I ask you Rosebud77 (and everybody else who feel that way) to please read epostle’s beautifully written post right before your 2 posts here, and please scroll up 4 posts to read mine. Please read them now?

Finally just for the record, Christ, the founder of the Catholic Church in fulfillment of the old order, promised that his Church will not teach erroneous doctrines. He did NOT promise good Catholics. (Didn’t He Himself select Judas? Weren’t the others knuckleheads at times?)

"When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.“This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself” (extracted from the CCC 891)

To whom shall we go?
 
There’s no denying, and mere words can never fully describe what our hearts are screaming concerning the 796 remains.

But there’s just something that’s gnawing at my stomach!
And that’s the doings and the deeds that LED UP TO placing (not ‘dumping’) the babies and toddlers in the mass grave.

Baby trafficking? Selling them to the highest bidder? Deliberate starvation or malnutrition? Etc etc etc. REALLY??? I’m having one bloody hell of a hard time believing the sisters committed such indescribable atrocities!
And there’s that “pathological component” that’s somehow being (conveniently?) left out of the picture.

Friends, you want to make such serious accusations against the sisters, you better have some serious PROOF that such atrocious crimes were committed by them.
THAT’S the issue.

Rosebud77, you said, “It is too much; and I join others in severing my ties with the Church here.”
Sever ties huh? To whom then shall you go.
I ask you Rosebud77 (and everybody else who feel that way) to please read epostle’s beautifully written post right before your 2 posts here, and please scroll up 4 posts to read mine. Please read them now?

Finally just for the record, Christ, the founder of the Catholic Church in fulfillment of the old order, promised that his Church will not teach erroneous doctrines. He did NOT promise good Catholics. (Didn’t He Himself select Judas? Weren’t the others knuckleheads at times?)

"When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.“This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself” (extracted from the CCC 891)

To whom shall we go?
To the Orthodox church.
 
To the Orthodox church.
They have their own scandals, as does evey organization and institution that has at least one human present. Don’t base your faith on the scandals of the Church. You should be Catholic because of the Faith that has been handed down, not because of how other people act.

As for this mass grave business, I would like to know the circumstances. Were the babies murdered and cast away like trash by evil nuns? Or did they unfortunately die due to uncontrollable circumstances like poverty or sickness? Perhaps they were buried there because there was no where else to bury them? Come on people, don’t be lead by emotions. Although, however they ended up buried there it is still a very sad tale. R.I.P. to those innocent ones.
 
They have their own scandals, as does evey organization and institution that has at least one human present. Don’t base your faith on the scandals of the Church. You should be Catholic because of the Faith that has been handed down, not because of how other people act.

As for this mass grave business, I would like to know the circumstances. Were the babies murdered and cast away like trash by evil nuns? Or did they unfortunately die due to uncontrollable circumstances like poverty or sickness? Perhaps they were buried there because there was no where else to bury them? Come on people, don’t be lead by emotions. Although, however they ended up buried there it is still a very sad tale. R.I.P. to those innocent ones.
I base my faith on Jesus Christ.

Anyway, St Patrick and St Brigid and all the other great saints of ancient Ireland were at one with Orthodoxy. It actually views itself as ‘the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church’. Funny that, if it’s the Roman Catholic who were wrong all along, since the Great Schism of the 11th century.

Come on, if you were part of any other organisation that was exposed for (world wide, not just in Ireland) sexual abuse of children and then this treatment of the most vulnerable members of society, you would run away as fast as your legs could carry you. You would want nothing to do with it, you would be rightly shocked, horrified and appalled.

Ireland is about to have a referendum on abortion. How do you suggest the church in Ireland preaches to the people about the sanctity of life when they treated babies, small children and their mothers like this?

‘By their fruits shall ye know them’.
 
I base my faith on Jesus Christ.

Anyway, St Patrick and St Brigid and all the other great saints of ancient Ireland were at one with Orthodoxy. It actually views itself as ‘the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church’. Funny that, if it’s the Roman Catholic who were wrong all along, since the Great Schism of the 11th century.

Come on, if you were part of any other organisation that was exposed for (world wide, not just in Ireland) sexual abuse of children and then this treatment of the most vulnerable members of society, you would run away as fast as your legs could carry you. You would want nothing to do with it, you would be rightly shocked, horrified and appalled.

Ireland is about to have a referendum on abortion. How do you suggest the church in Ireland preaches to the people about the sanctity of life when they treated babies, small children and their mothers like this?

‘By their fruits shall ye know them’.
The education system has child abuse scandals, yet I still completed high school and am going to college in August, God willing. The police departments have lots of scandals yet I still call them when I’m in trouble. The medical industry, food industry, etc…you know what I’m trying to say. If you base your faith on Jesus Christ, then why do you let man’s actions disturb your faith? And you say the bishops ‘treated babies, children and mothers like this’ like what? Again, what were the circumstances of the mass burials? Were the babies treated cruelly and killed? Or did they die due to uncontrollable circumstances like poverty, sickness, etc? What if there was no other way to bury them, except in mass graves? And know that I am NOT trying to defend unjust people. If they were treated evilly by religious or clergy, then yes justice must be definitely served. But I will not despair because of hypocritical and evil Church members, regardless of their rank.
 
The education system has child abuse scandals, yet I still completed high school and am going to college in August, God willing. The police departments have lots of scandals yet I still call them when I’m in trouble. The medical industry, food industry, etc…you know what I’m trying to say. If you base your faith on Jesus Christ, then why do you let man’s actions disturb your faith? And you say the bishops ‘treated babies, children and mothers like this’ like what? Again, what were the circumstances of the mass burials? Were the babies treated cruelly and killed? Or did they die due to uncontrollable circumstances like poverty, sickness, etc? What if there was no other way to bury them, except in mass graves? And know that I am NOT trying to defend unjust people. If they were treated evilly by religious or clergy, then yes justice must be definitely served. But I will not despair because of hypocritical and evil Church members, regardless of their rank.
👍
 
I base my faith on Jesus Christ.

Anyway, St Patrick and St Brigid and all the other great saints of ancient Ireland were at one with Orthodoxy. It actually views itself as ‘the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church’. Funny that, if it’s the Roman Catholic who were wrong all along, since the Great Schism of the 11th century.

Come on, if you were part of any other organisation that was exposed for (world wide, not just in Ireland) sexual abuse of children and then this treatment of the most vulnerable members of society, you would run away as fast as your legs could carry you. You would want nothing to do with it, you would be rightly shocked, horrified and appalled.

Ireland is about to have a referendum on abortion. How do you suggest the church in Ireland preaches to the people about the sanctity of life when they treated babies, small children and their mothers like this?

‘By their fruits shall ye know them’.
You are the sign that the devil is quite efficient by turning people away from the Truth, by a combination of lies, shame and moral pressure.
 
The education system has child abuse scandals, yet I still completed high school and am going to college in August, God willing. The police departments have lots of scandals yet I still call them when I’m in trouble. The medical industry, food industry, etc…you know what I’m trying to say. If you base your faith on Jesus Christ, then why do you let man’s actions disturb your faith? And you say the bishops ‘treated babies, children and mothers like this’ like what? Again, what were the circumstances of the mass burials? Were the babies treated cruelly and killed? Or did they die due to uncontrollable circumstances like poverty, sickness, etc? What if there was no other way to bury them, except in mass graves? And know that I am NOT trying to defend unjust people. If they were treated evilly by religious or clergy, then yes justice must be definitely served. But I will not despair because of hypocritical and evil Church members, regardless of their rank.
Amen!

In the UK we have come to understand and with great shame to accept that abuse of children has been systematic and pervasive throughout all levels of our society.

Read this article in The Telegraph by British Prime Minister Theresa May:

telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/05/child-abuse-in-the-uk-runs-far-deeper-than-you-know/
**Child abuse in the UK runs far deeper than you know
By THERESA MAY
We already know the trail will lead into our schools and hospitals, our churches, our youth clubs and many other institutions that should have been places of safety but instead became the setting for the most appalling abuse. However, what the country doesn’t yet appreciate is the true scale of that abuse.
And that is quite understandable. I have only learnt about the extent and breadth of the problem since I first announced an overarching inquiry into whether public bodies and other non-state institutions had failed in their duty of care towards children…
In my discussions with older victims and survivors and their representatives, I began to realise how abuse is woven, covertly, into the fabric of our society.
During one of my first meetings with survivors, one lady said to me: “Get this inquiry right and it will be like a stick of Blackpool rock. You will see abuse going through every level of society.” I fear she is right. I have said before and I shall say again, that what we have seen so far is only the tip of iceberg…
In recent years, we have watched the slow trickle of allegations become a flood. Yet, incredibly, some people still question whether we need an inquiry. “What’s the point?” they say. “It’s so long ago and we know it all now. Leave it in the past where it belongs.” But how on earth are we to learn lessons for the future if we don’t address the wrongs of the past?
The victims and survivors who have had the courage to speak out are clear that they have done so for one common reason – to save the next generation of children from the abuse they suffered**
There must be a reckoning from society in general, at least in Britain. Perhaps Ireland is different, I only know about the UK.

But I do know that Ireland is not alone. This is a global crime and the Catholic Church is not the only institution to have been a perpetrator, far from it. (Over here, there was a paedophile ring at the heart of the UK government in Westminster). It is part of a much wider system of abuse that we are only beginning to fully come to terms with.
 
Britain is a secular, Protestant nation and yet the message from our own Prime Minister Theresa May is that “abuse is woven, covertly, into the fabric of our society” in such a manner that we “do not yet appreciate the true scale of that abuse”.

So to those from Ireland, who are particularly hurting from the horror, shame and betrayal of trust on the part of those in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and religious orders who were tasked with caring for the most vulnerable and either failed to do so out of wanton neglect/disregard for human life or who deliberately took advantage of the vulnerable under their charge, I would urge that you take a deep breath and a step back, so as to look at the wider picture in context and recognise that abuse of children has been a pervasive, covert crime in our societies both within and without the Church.

The Church must look to its past involvement in child abuse and concurrent cover-ups with due shame, sincere contrition, a resolve to do everything in its power to help the victims of these horrific crimes to rebuild their lives and a concerted desire for systematic reform in the future so that it does not take place again.

But that does not, in my case, lead me to question the theological convictions that have led me to regard the Deposit of Faith as divinely revealed. Rather, it leads me to believe that the Church has failed miserably in the institutional sense in the recent past to abide by it as Christ commanded.

Reform can only come from taking a stand within the Church, not from abandoning Her.
 
Britain is a secular, Protestant nation and yet the message from our own Prime Minister Theresa May is that “abuse is woven, covertly, into the fabric of our society” in such a manner that we “do not yet appreciate the true scale of that abuse”.

So to those from Ireland, who are particularly hurting from the horror, shame and betrayal of trust on the part of those in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and religious orders who were tasked with caring for the most vulnerable and either failed to do so out of wanton neglect/disregard for human life or who deliberately took advantage of the vulnerable under their charge, I would urge that you take a deep breath and a step back, so as to look at the wider picture in context and recognise that abuse of children has been a pervasive, covert crime in our societies both within and without the Church.
Thanks, I found this helpful.
 
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