(Irish) Archbishop urges lapsed Catholics to leave the faith

[Yellow_Belle]

How exactly does one leave at all? There is no longer a formal defection process, and getting one’s self excommunicated hardly seems worth the trouble.

 

[CMatt25]

Incidentally, how is it even possible for a lapsed Catholic to just “come back for a wedding?” Even if you’re baptized you still have to go through some pretty protracted marriage prep, right?

I have no idea how that is possible. And as far as Baptism, in the territorial parish for Catholics in my neighborhood, I know there is even a policy that Catholics can not have their children baptized unless they not only are registered but they also must be using the parish envelope system for at least 6 mos. As far as funerals, I suppose if the Church wanted to deny funerals for more of the dead, could they do that?

 

[saveusfromhell]

How exactly does one leave without erasing the permanent indelible character placed upon one’s soul which made them a member of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, in the first place?

maybe you misunderstand, what the bishop is saying is those that have left, leave,
just because you want a white wedding does not mean you can be catholic for a day.
we all want to see everyone return, but that does not mean that the church should allow disdain be shown towards Jesus in the eucharist.

there con not be people seriously trying to say that only practising catholics are getting married in the church.

 

[CMatt25]

How exactly does one leave at all? There is no longer a formal defection process, and getting one’s self excommunicated hardly seems worth the trouble.

Yellow Belle, since you’re in Ireland, has the archbishop explained how? I thought even excommunicated Catholics were Catholic and while unable to receive Christ in the Eucharist or to have a parish role, they have nevertheless been encouraged to be reconciled. Perhaps even encouraged to attend Mass in the meantime.

 

[Dale_M]

Did any of our Irish members watch the documentary, which aired Sunday night, in which Archbishop Martin made the statements quoted in the news article?

I am wondering if the article is accurately presenting his views, or if they are being taken out of context. And I wonder if the documentary might have offered any other viewpoints.

 

[CMatt25]

maybe you misunderstand, what the bishop is saying is those that have left, leave,
just because you want a white wedding does not mean you can be catholic for a day.
we all want to see everyone return, but that does not mean that the church should allow disdain be shown towards Jesus in the eucharist.

there con not be people seriously trying to say that only practising catholics are getting married in the church.

Thanks. Maybe I am. So basically all the bishop is saying is if someone has left the practice of the faith, they just can’t expect for instance to just walk in and be married without going thru any prep and so forth to meet requirements? So he’s not actually saying they should completely somehow leave the Church then as the thread title suggests?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Yellow Belle, since you’re in Ireland, has the archbishop explained how? I thought even excommunicated Catholics were Catholic and while unable to receive Christ in the Eucharist or to have a parish role, they have nevertheless been encouraged to be reconciled. Perhaps even encouraged to attend Mass in the meantime.

I only saw part of the documentary shown tonight and I didn’t see the Archbishop’s (name removed by moderator)ut at all so I’m not in a position to answer your question, CMatt25. Knowing the Archbishop, though, I’d be surprised if he said quite what people here are taking from it.

 

[saveusfromhell]

Thanks. Maybe I am. So basically all the bishop is saying is if someone has left the practice of the faith, they just can’t expect for instance to just walk in and be married without going thru any prep and so forth to meet requirements? So he’s not actually saying they should completely somehow leave the Church then as the thread title suggests?

yes, if you now consider yourself an atheist, well then unless you have a change of heart, you should be honest and say maybe a catholic wedding is not for me.etc
i would doubt if this bishop who has proved himself to be a good man takes any joy in seeing people abondon the faith.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Did any of our Irish members watch the documentary, which aired Sunday night, in which Archbishop Martin made the statements quoted in the news article?

I am wondering if the article is accurately presenting his views, or if they are being taken out of context. And I wonder if the documentary might have offered any other viewpoints.

The documentary was in two parts, one shown December 4, the other tonight. Its purpose was to ask questions about what kind of future the Church has in Ireland, what would it look like, who would be considered members, etc.

The first part is available at rte.ie/tv/wouldyoubelieve/ The second part should be available early next week.

 

[markomalley]

How exactly does one leave at all? There is no longer a formal defection process, and getting one’s self excommunicated hardly seems worth the trouble.

Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica

The Apostolic Letter “Motu Proprio data” Omnium in mentem (modifying some canons of the Code of Canon Law) modified some of the provisions of canon law that impacted those who formally defected from the Church (saying that they were still liable for canon law in regards to marriage).

But yes, there is still a formal defection process.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica

The Apostolic Letter “Motu Proprio data” Omnium in mentem (modifying some canons of the Code of Canon Law) modified some of the provisions of canon law that impacted those who formally defected from the Church (saying that they were still liable for canon law in regards to marriage).

But yes, there is still a formal defection process.

Perhaps you can point me to this then, because Archbishop Martin is already on record as saying that there is no longer such a process.

This from the countmeout website - a site that used to help people process their defections:

In April of this year [2010] the Catholic Church modified the Code of Canon Law to remove all references to the act of formal defection, the process used by those who wish to formally renounce their membership of the Church.

Since then, the Catholic Church in Ireland has been reflecting on the implications of this change for those who wish to leave the Catholic Church. Despite our requests for clarification, the Church have yet to reach a firm position on how or whether they will continue to accept requests for the annotation of the baptismal register.

In recent weeks we have been contacted by an increasing number of people whose defections have not been processed, due to the limbo created by this canon law amendment.

Because of this uncertainty, we have taken the decision to suspend the creation of declarations of defection via CountMeOut.ie from today (12th October 2010).

In response to this, the Church in Ireland released the following statement to RTE News:

**** The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process. This is a change that will affect the Church throughout the world. The Archdiocese of Dublin plans to maintain a register to note the expressed desire of those who wish to defect. Details will be communicated to those involved in the process when they are finalised. Last year 229 people formally defected from the Church through the Archdiocese of Dublin. 312 have done so, so far this year. ****

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Assuming that the article is not taking the Archbishop out of context, what he’s quoted as saying in the article had nothing to do with so-called “cafeteria” Catholics but more so do with those who use the Church as a cultural rather than faith identity:

He said: “It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say ‘I don’t believe in God and I really shouldn’t be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don’t really believe in it’.”

The article mentions nothing of Catholics who love and regularly make use of the sacraments and the faith but have erroneous opinions on the Church’s moral teachings.

 

[stanczyk]

I hope he’s not simply saying that Catholics should leave the Church if they’re struggling with doubt.

 

[markomalley]

Perhaps you can point me to this then, because Archbishop Martin is already on record as saying that there is no longer such a process.

This from the countmeout website - a site that used to help people process their defections:

What happened was that the Motu Proprio removed the canonical rationale for defecting in regards to the Sacrament of Marriage. The canons that were changed were can. 1086 § 1, can. 1117, and can. 1124 (all of which pertain to marriage).

However, there is no indication that the Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica directive coming from the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts has been rescinded in any fashion. It is still published on the Vatican web site, despite the fact that the Holy Father’s Motu Proprio has been published for over 2 years.

It is true the the Irish Bishops have suspended the recording of defections in the baptismal records of defectors because of their belief that the Holy See has stopped allowing people to defect. But I see no indication from the Holy See that this is the case. In fact, the only place where I see that is from the Archdiocese of Dublin. And, with due respect to the Dublin chancery, if the Holy See is making a major policy change that impacts the entire Church, I would expect to see that policy published by the Holy See, not in a little press release from one, and only one, archdiocese.

Furthermore, the concept of defecting from the Church is still actually listed in Canon Law. Please note Canon 194:

Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself:

1/ a person who has lost the clerical state;

2/ a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;

That canon was not changed by the Motu Proprio, Omnium in mentem. So there still is direct canonical reference to defections.

Do you have a reference directly from the Holy See that you can point me towards?

Alternatively, have you personally gotten direction from your Ordinary to not record defections in your parish’s baptismal registry, in accordance with the direction of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts? (Not that posting defections is an exactly commonplace event)

 

[chris62]

“priests reveal they will expect a firmer commitment from their flock in the future”

I like that line.

 

[Darryl1958]

Certainly all should be welcome to attend Mass, but priests do have the authority to restrict access to the sacraments to those who are really no longer active members of the faith community.

 

[Cathy]

I’m not Catholic or Christian, but I still have an opinion on this matter. I feel it somewhat inappropriate for a leader of the Church (or synagogue, mosque, etc.) to encourage any of their flock to leave the Church. It seems to me they would do better to help their parishioners understand and grow in the faith while encouraging them to stay in the Church. In fact, I’ve never heard of this attitude before. Has any other Catholic bishop or archbishop ever expressed similar views?

I like your response best so far. I hope the archbishop is encouraging the priests to teach the Faith more clearly. The Word of God,charitably and faithfully taught, will automatically promote the desired cleansing.

 

[CMatt25]

I like your response best so far. I hope the archbishop is encouraging the priests to teach the Faith more clearly. The Word of God,charitably and faithfully taught, will automatically promote the desired cleansing.

The desired cleansing of what? The cleansing of the individual or the cleansing of His Church to make it smaller?

 

[BlueSapphire]

I missed the programme last night, but I intend to catch it later on RTE player.

rte.ie/player/#!v=1126327

I would imagine the Archbishop means to leave the Church (building?), and not the faith, until such time that one can participate worthily - I could be wrong!

 

[Yellow_Belle]

What happened was that the Motu Proprio removed the canonical rationale for defecting in regards to the Sacrament of Marriage. The canons that were changed were can. 1086 § 1, can. 1117, and can. 1124 (all of which pertain to marriage).

However, there is no indication that the Actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica directive coming from the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts has been rescinded in any fashion. It is still published on the Vatican web site, despite the fact that the Holy Father’s Motu Proprio has been published for over 2 years.

It is true the the Irish Bishops have suspended the recording of defections in the baptismal records of defectors because of their belief that the Holy See has stopped allowing people to defect. But I see no indication from the Holy See that this is the case. In fact, the only place where I see that is from the Archdiocese of Dublin. And, with due respect to the Dublin chancery, if the Holy See is making a major policy change that impacts the entire Church, I would expect to see that policy published by the Holy See, not in a little press release from one, and only one, archdiocese.

Furthermore, the concept of defecting from the Church is still actually listed in Canon Law. Please note Canon 194:

Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself:

1/ a person who has lost the clerical state;

2/ a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;

That canon was not changed by the Motu Proprio, Omnium in mentem. So there still is direct canonical reference to defections.

Do you have a reference directly from the Holy See that you can point me towards?

Alternatively, have you personally gotten direction from your Ordinary to not record defections in your parish’s baptismal registry, in accordance with the direction of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts? (Not that posting defections is an exactly commonplace event)

I think you are missing the point. The process of formal defection from the Catholic Church no longer pertains and this is universal for the Church. There remains informal defection and notorious or public defection (through publicly declared heresy or apostasy)

The problem with informal defection is obvious: there is no formal record of a person’s defection, it is practically unenforceable and a person can still avail of the privileges of being Catholic (including the sacraments and a Catholic funeral, and in Ireland having your child enrolled in most schools).

The problem with notorious defection (at least in Ireland) is that those who ‘leave’ the Church rarely leave for another faith/denomination/religion, and even more rarely are they public heretics (in the generally accepted view of heretic).

Before 2010, the preferred process in Ireland for those who wanted nothing more to do with the Church was that of formal defection, by which the person’s baptismal record was annotated to indicate that they had defected and were no longer entitled to the privileges of being Catholic. It is significant that even though the formal process is defunct, the Dublin archdiocese continues to keep a register of those who want their defection formally recorded.

The Archbishop appears to be asking those who have ‘informally’ defected to ‘leave the faith’. But how are they practically to do that in the current situation in Ireland? It is very difficult to be anything other than culturally Catholic here. Catholicism pervades our history, our folklore, our place names, our landscape, our music, our language. Our Catholic parishes are the basis for the vast majority of our schools, local organisations, and sports clubs. The Angelus is still rung twice daily on state TV and radio. State radio and tv broadcasts Mass on Sundays and all the ceremonies at Easter and Christmas. I could go on, but you get the picture.

And there are practical issues: for example, the Church controls 90% of the primary schools here despite the fact that they are state funded, state administered and the state pays the teachers’ salaries. Yet those children with a Catholic baptismal certificate are given preference on enrolment. Why wouldn’t non-believer/non-practising parents have their children baptised when their access to primary education virtually depends on it?