Irish bishop urges end to celibacy in clergy

[holmj2674]

I think ConstantineTG is quite correct. The Eastern Orthodox Church has always had married clergy. I see no reason why Rome cannot do it like the Eastern Church 1) must be married before becoming a priest, 2) can only marry once, if spouse passes away etc. they may not remarry, 3) Only celibate clergy may become bishops. I don’t see what the big deal with this is. As many have pointed out, its doctrine not dogma. As I’m sure its been beaten to death that the founder of the Holy See, Peter himself was a married man. I would also like to point out that I think the teachings of the church on matters of sexual conduct would have more weight coming from married men who have some experience with these matters than celibate priests in the general Catholic community. We all how passionately the American Church clings to the Vatican’s teaching on contraception and abortion!

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

Celibacy is considered a higher estate in the Catholic Church. It’s a sacrifice. A shame if dioscesan clergy abandon it.

Celibacy is not a bar to men becoming priests. We hear reports that seminaries answerable to traditionalist Bishops do not want for vocations. We also hear of good men being turned away from other seminaries because of ‘rigidity’.

Here’s how I think it works. A heterosexual man attends Mass and sees heavy and lay female involvement and a tendency to sentiment. Not particularly attractive.

A pious young man applies to become a priest anyway and finds out that that is not what is wanted. What is wanted is a pastor and presider, which are not the same thing. He sees a Church-appointed psychologist, who might mark him down as having a ‘messiah complex’.

If he gets into the seminary he may find that wanting to wear a cassock, not say the Luminous Mysteries or being interested in tradition might be best hid if he wants to survive to ordination: a curious thing in a school for priests, n’est pas?

A pious man will consider whether he wants to be a lonely, celibate presider at a Mass with heavy lay involvement and focus and decide against it. Those who persevere may get filtered out anyway.

Thus you have a ‘vocations crisis’: Simple probabilty in action across a population.

I know one way to fix a problem is not to keep doing the same thing you’ve being doing for years and expect different results.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I really do not see why anything should change at all. No one is forcing these men to be priests. Frankly a lot of Catholics are taking a negative view toward celibacy that is absolutely shocking to say the least. If you want to be a Catholic priest in the Roman Rite then embrace everything that entails, As Christ said “He that can receive, let him receive it."–Matt 19:12

 

[Roy5]

Bravo for Bishop Daly! I’m sure that he has been in a position to see how the celibacy rule has injured the church.

A couple quick thoughts.

**Protestants do reasonably well with married clergy**. There are problems, of course, but not the shortage of clergy that Catholicism faces. Certainly they haven't faced the dimensions of the sex scandal which Catholicism has faced. Their major problem would likely be divorce among clergy. That usually gets handled, and they move on. 

**Marriage was established by God** for a variety of reasons, among them raising children, companionship, the joy of intimacy, etc. 

 **Scripture doesn't condemn marriage of clergy**. The New Testament says that a bishop should have only one wife. St. Peter apparently was married as the Bible refers to his mother-in-law. 

 **Sex. yes, sex**. The normal human being, certainly males, has a natural desire for sexual relations. Too often the Church seems to have sullied that, in part (I fear) because of the celibate clergy. They make so much out of virginity, starting with Mary. Is there anything more Christian, more beautiful, more important to the world than a husband and his wife, devoted to one another and raising children together? I don't think so.

 **The main thing is that there should be a choice,** as in Protestantism. While most ministers marry, some choose not to. That should be an option.

** One additional point which I hesitate to mention.** I think the priesthood attracts a high percentage of gays. Why? Many gays hoped and prayed that becoming a priest would help them overcome their same-sex attraction. Also, they wouldn't be urged by parents and others to marry and they would be in an all-male fraternity. I also have wondered if the ornate robes and beauty of the sanctuary and the drama character of the Mass doesn't attract gays. This is not to condemn all gays certainly, but may help explain (in my view) why the large majority of priestly sexual predators targeted teenage boys. 

God bless everybody - no exceptions.

 

[Warrior1979]

Actually, no, it wouldn’t be. The differences are huge. Protestants appear to have no restrictions, so it seems that a minister may marry at will, just like any non-minister. OTOH the Orthodox, along with the ECCs/OCCs (and this was also the case in the Latin Church until the discipline was changed), do not “allow priests to marry” but rather they can (and do) ordain married men to the priesthood. Another big difference.

I understand this. But the term “Protestant” applies to a whole host of situations that have little in common with the Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox are far more similar, and allow married priests in certain circumstances. I believe that would be a reasonable starting point if marriage of priests were allowed in the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I really do not see why anything should change at all. No one is forcing these men to be priests. Frankly a lot of Catholics are taking a negative view toward celibacy that is absolutely shocking to say the least. If you want to be a Catholic priest in the Roman Rite then embrace everything that entails, As Christ said “He that can receive, let him receive it."–Matt 19:12

Christ also didn’t force his disciples to be celibate. There are those who answered this higher calling, and there are those who didn’t. But they were all called the same. Its not a negative view on celibacy, but rather opening the doors to otherwise good men to become priests, and also answer the call of marriage.

I think most Latin Rite Catholics have a negative view on marriage, as if its something dirty that would diminish the holy duties of a priest.

 

[malphono]

I understand this. But the term “Protestant” applies to a whole host of situations that have little in common with the Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox are far more similar, and allow married priests in certain circumstances. I believe that would be a reasonable starting point if marriage of priests were allowed in the Roman Catholic Church.

The point is, though, that neither the Orthodox nor the ECCs/OCCs allow priests to marry. What we have are priest who are married before ordination (to the diaconate). It’s not the same thing.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Certainly they haven’t faced the dimensions of the sex scandal which Catholicism has faced.

There isnt a Protestant Church that is as big as the Catholic Church so no wonder.

Their major problem would likely be divorce among clergy. That usually gets handled, and they move on.

Oh divorce is fine I guess. We can just exchange one sin for another.

Also please note I’m not saying every divorce is a sin, but most of them are.

for a variety of reasons, among them raising children, companionship, the joy of intimacy, etc.

Priests have families, they are called parishes and contrary to popular belief there is much joy to be had and much work to be done.

The New Testament says that a bishop should have only one wife. St. Peter apparently was married as the Bible refers to his mother-in-law.

Paul was addressing the men that were becoming Bishops but were already married to begin with. He was also speaking to the Bishops who were widowers before they became Bishops.

Sex. yes, sex. The normal human being, certainly males, has a natural desire for sexual relations. Too often the Church seems to have sullied that, in part (I fear) because of the celibate clergy. They make so much out of virginity, starting with Mary. Is there anything more Christian, more beautiful, more important to the world than a husband and his wife, devoted to one another and raising children together? I don’t think so.

There is nothing more Christian than denying ones self good things for the glory of God. In fact there is nothing more Christ like than being a virgin since Christ was a virgin. Furthermore sex, yes, sex is not the primary reason for why Christians get married fyi.

Is there anything more beautiful than a man sacrificing his wants and desires to fully devote 100% of his being to labor in the Masters vineyard for the salvation of souls? I mean who comes to mind when you picture such a man?

Jesus?

The main thing is that there should be a choice

Oh but there is, you either become a priest accepting the Church’s position on celibacy or you dont.

One additional point which I hesitate to mention. I think the priesthood attracts a high percentage of gays. Why? Many gays hoped and prayed that becoming a priest would help them overcome their same-sex attraction. Also, they wouldn’t be urged by parents and others to marry and they would be in an all-male fraternity. I also have wondered if the ornate robes and beauty of the sanctuary and the drama character of the Mass doesn’t attract gays. This is not to condemn all gays certainly, but may help explain (in my view) why the large majority of priestly sexual predators targeted teenage boys.

This is not only ridiculous but insulting.

Plus I would be happy to hear the causes for why there are married pedophiles? Could we conclude that marriage drove them to being pedophiles? How about married men that are also secretly gay? Did their wives collection of lace doilies and drapes attract them also?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I think most Latin Rite Catholics have a negative view on marriage, as if its something dirty that would diminish the holy duties of a priest.

I think most Latin Rite Catholics hold this view:

[bibledrb]1 Cor. 7:32-33[/bibledrb]

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Daly accepted he might be out of step with current Vatican thinking but said he was “not engaged in a popularity contest”.

He said that during his time as a bishop he found it “heartbreaking” that so many priests or prospective priests were forced to resign or were unable to get ordained because of the celibacy issue. Many young men who had once considered joining the priesthood turned away because of the rule, the cleric said.

It would seem these young men that once “considered” priesthood were more concerned about their own preferences than serving God. However, as a discipline, it can be removed but I don’t think removing celibacy will resolve the problem.

 

[JM3]

This is as old as the Church.

Ancyra (314) [LOCAL]

Canon 10. They who have been made deacons, declaring when they were ordained that they must marry, because they were not able to abide so, and who afterwards have married, shall continue in their ministry, because it was conceded to them by the bishop. But if any were silent on this matter, undertaking at their ordination to abide as they were, and afterwards proceeded to marriage, these shall cease from the diaconate.

I see no reason for the Church to change just because people refuse to be continent.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

CHAPTER XXIX – CONTINENCE OF CHRISTIANS.

And again [we fear to expose children], lest some of them be not picked up, but die, and we become murderers. But whether we marry, it is only that we may bring up children; or whether we decline marriage, we live continently.

 

[Roy5]

Credo in Deum

We both believe in God and seek to follow Christ, and that should be a good start.

 Protestants in the USA number about twice as many as Catholics. This is not that important but in response to your first comment. The major difference, I think, is that most Protestant groups don't have the tight hierarchy that Catholicism has. The main indictment of Catholicism in many minds is that Bishops and others in high office did their best to shield the priests and/or seek to defend the church by hiding the sexual predators, instead of handing them over to the police. St. Thomas Aquinas argued thet heretics should be handed by the Church over to the civil authorities to be executed. No, no execution. But sexual exploitation of children and youth is criminal.

 True, most Protestant churches tend to regard divorce and remarriage somewhat differently. It is a sadness and often a sin, but not unforgiveable according to Jesus. So, many Protestant churches (not all) permit divorce and remarriage, depending upon circumstances. Many Protestant ministers note that their churches receive many divorced Catholics into their churches because of the condemnation they feel from the Catholic Church.

 No, people should not marry for sex, of course, but sex is a basic God-given impulse, not to be somehow viewed as inferior to the virginal state. None of us would be here without it. God's first commandment was "Be fruitful and multiply." This elevation of virginity as 'chaste' always struck me as a holdover from puritanism, which has existed in both its Catholic and Protestant guises. A healthy sex life is a source of great joy, sharing, romance, tension-release and excitement in millions of marriages, as it should be. I find that Catholics generally ignore the Church when it comes to artificial birth control if they already have as many children as they believe they can provide for well. 

 God bless everybody - no exceptions. I'm grateful for the opportunity to dialogue and urge reforms upon the Church. John XXIII got things going, but momentum has stalled along the way. No wonder the second largest 'denomination' in the USA are the ex-Catholics. 30 million of them.

 

[m134e5]

I think if more married men became deacons, it would solve some of the problem

Deacons can witness marriages, do counseling, teach catechism classes, handle many administrative responsibilities of the parish, be an official representative of the parish for civic functions (community improvement organizations in which the church participates). Having a deacon do these things would obviously significantly free up the priests, so in a one sense, it would solve a lot of the problems.

One big problem remains, however: a priest isn’t just a special man who can celebrate Mass- a priest is so much more than that. A priest stands in persona Christi. There is power in the Mass- if there wasn’t, priests would just celebrate it once a week and consecrate enough hosts to have communion services all throughout the week (whether or not there were enough priests to go around for daily Mass to be possible), and there is power in confession- things which only priests and bishops can do.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

The main indictment of Catholicism in many minds is that Bishops and others in high office did their best to shield the priests and/or seek to defend the church by hiding the sexual predators, instead of handing them over to the police. St. Thomas Aquinas argued thet heretics should be handed by the Church over to the civil authorities to be executed. No, no execution. But sexual exploitation of children and youth is criminal.

I for one do not agree with the way some Bishops have handled the priest guilty of sex abuse. Much is being changed to fix this but those inside the Church and outside the Church will try to use such a scandal to attack the credibility of Christ’s Church. Oddly enough if one really looks at the history of the Church in the Bible they would see that Christ’s Church has been attacked with scandal from the vary beginning; Judas betraying Christ, and Peter denying Christ. How about when Peter, Andrew, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James, Jude, and Simon all left our Lord during His Passion? How about when the Church had the audacity to make a Bishop out of Saul, I mean this guy persecuted Christians! What was that saying, nothing new under the sun.

The devil is very busy attacking to the True Church because it is a threat to his work.

Many Protestant ministers note that their churches receive many divorced Catholics into their churches because of the condemnation they feel from the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry but I do not buy this, nor do I see it as just reason to leave the Catholic Church.

No, people should not marry for sex, of course, but sex is a basic God-given impulse, not to be somehow viewed as inferior to the virginal state.

It’s not, and likewise the virginal state should not be viewed as inferoir either.

None of us would be here without it. God’s first commandment was “Be fruitful and multiply.”

Not everyone is called to be fruitful and mulitply thats the mistake in your thinking.
[bibledrb]Jer. 16:1-2[/bibledrb]

A healthy sex life is a source of great joy, sharing, romance, tension-release and excitement in millions of marriages, as it should be.

A life of perpetual virginity is also a life of great joy, with all of those things being found in other forms. I’m sorry but you’re making it sound like people who are celibate are lonely, upset and sad souls which I’m sad to say I have met a ton of married people who fit that exact description.

I find that Catholics generally ignore the Church when it comes to artificial birth control if they already have as many children as they believe they can provide for well.

Well that’s the thing about free will; you see you can’t make anyone do anything. You can only ask them nicely, warn them of the consequences of their decisions and hope they are wise enough to choose the correct path.

No wonder the second largest ‘denomination’ in the USA are the ex-Catholics. 30 million of them

I will pray the find their way back to the Fathers House, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

God bless.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is as old as the Church.

Ancyra (314) [LOCAL]

I see no reason for the Church to change just because people refuse to be continent.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Ancyra Canon 10 only confirms what we today already hold on to, that no one can marry AFTER receiving ordination.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think most Latin Rite Catholics hold this view:

[bibledrb]1 Cor. 7:32-33[/bibledrb]

I agree with that. But it seems that most see sex as something dirty, even if used for its intended purpose (procreation between a man and his wife). What you have here is correct, but having this view doesn’t mean that the opposite (a married priesthood) is bad. No one disagrees, even in the East, that celibacy is a higher calling. What is wrong that I am pointing out is the view by most that a married priest is a bad thing. It isn’t. Jesus called for celibacy as a higher calling as well, but didn’t think twice in handing over the keys of His Church to a married man. Just because one is higher doesn’t mean the other is lower. Its a case of good and better, not a good and bad.

 

[JM3]

Ancyra Canon 10 only confirms what we today already hold on to, that no one can marry AFTER receiving ordination.

because they were not able to abide so, and who afterwards have married, shall continue in their ministry, because it was conceded to them by the bishop.

Actually, this suggests that marriage before is not the norm.

but didn’t think twice in handing over the keys of His Church to a married man.

Source?

That St. Peter was married is understood. That he is married when given the keys is not.

 

[hawkeye]

With all due respect to this Bishop I (just a humble layman) think he is sowing division. Given his perceived authority I don’t see this public airing of his personal beliefs as helpful at all.

Agreed, many don’t seem to care if they abuse the key-holder, and the one who give the key-holder the keys…Jesus Christ.

I don’t agree with the Archbishop of Vienna, such naivety, since married men abuse children, and why does Edward Daly & the like think it’s ok to post this into the public forum, like his opinion or the public’s is going to change Rome ?

The sheep are being further scattered by those that don’t want to accept the authority of Rome…but accept we must, before a man is fire and water, whichever he chooses shall be given to him…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Actually, this suggests that marriage before is not the norm.

Read again:

because they were not able to abide so, and who afterwards have married, shall continue in their ministry, because it was conceded to them by the bishop.

It talks about those who marry after ordination.

Source?

That St. Peter was married is understood. That he is married when given the keys is not.

Tradition is that Peter was martyred together with his wife in Rome. Besides, why does that even matter. Peter is not the last Pope who was married. There’s a long list of married Popes until the Ecumenical Council agreed to ordain only celibate men to the episcopate.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Actually, this suggests that marriage before is not the norm.

Source?

That St. Peter was married is understood. That he is married when given the keys is not.

I’ve always assumed Peter was married, even during the time Jesus handed him the keys.