Irish bishop urges end to celibacy in clergy

[Credo_in_Deum]

In light of some of the other posts here, and some other things I’ve been thinking about, maybe a married priesthood is still not a good idea. I mean, yes, we need more vocations, definitely. And allowing married men would definitely fill the void.

I am definitely NOT saying this applies to everyone, but… it seems to me marriage is ever more becoming a worldly issue, and not a holy one. People seem to marry for the sex and the money (gov’t benefits) and the emotional love they feel at first. It seems they don’t consider it a spiritual vocation, where husband and wife draw each other closer to God, along with each other.

Consider the divorce rate - even among Catholics. Can you imagine the scandal of a priest divorcing his wife?

Perhaps married priests should wait until marriage once again becomes a holy vocation ,where God is a third party, and not just a partnership between people “in love”.

O Lord, come soon.

I think you make a good point regarding marriage being under attack by society. I think society is also to blame for the negative outlook towards celibacy as well. The devil is trying to ruin all things holy that it for sure.

 

[WetCatechumen]

I think the best reason is always the pursuit of the authentic spirituality of the East, as something that will grow your own spirituality.

I must say I have a very Latin viewpoint on the married priesthood prior to my switch. But my eyes have been opened. A lot of stereotypes thrown around here is simply not true. For one thing the wife participates in the ministry of the husband. Its not like the wife lives a life contrary to the life of the husband. I have yet to see a wife of a priest in the East who is not involved deeply in the ministry of the husband. As noted by an earlier poster that St. Paul commented that a married one would seek to satisfy their spouse first before God. I would say this is true for secular people like myself. I do volunteer a lot of my time to the Church, but when my wife demands it, she is priority 1 for me. But for priests, both the priest and his wife devote their lives to God. That is why wives of priests are called “presbyteria”. It literally means “female priests”, its an honorific title but while they do not receive any ordination nor perform Liturgical priestly duties, they are heavily involved in the ministry of the husband. Our presbyteria for example leads singing during Liturgy. Also if there are special events in the parish, she helps runs. There are those who would clean the parish, wash the linens, etc. And even the wife of our presbyteria embroidered the cloth for our tables (the altar or Holy Table, table of preparation, and tetrapod) which we started using Easter this year.

I feel like a married priest deserves two salaries because his wife will usually end up doing as much for the parish as him - it’s how it happens in Protestant churches.

 

[choliks]

I think the best reason is always the pursuit of the authentic spirituality of the East, as something that will grow your own spirituality.

I must say I have a very Latin viewpoint on the married priesthood prior to my switch. But my eyes have been opened. A lot of stereotypes thrown around here is simply not true. ***For one thing the wife participates in the ministry of the husband. Its not like the wife lives a life contrary to the life of the husband. *** I have yet to see a wife of a priest in the East who is not involved deeply in the ministry of the husband. As noted by an earlier poster that St. Paul commented that a married one would seek to satisfy their spouse first before God. I would say this is true for secular people like myself. I do volunteer a lot of my time to the Church, but when my wife demands it, she is priority 1 for me. But for priests, both the priest and his wife devote their lives to God. That is why wives of priests are called “presbyteria”. It literally means “female priests”, its an honorific title but while they do not receive any ordination nor perform Liturgical priestly duties, they are heavily involved in the ministry of the husband. Our presbyteria for example leads singing during Liturgy. Also if there are special events in the parish, she helps runs. There are those who would clean the parish, wash the linens, etc. And even the wife of our presbyteria embroidered the cloth for our tables (the altar or Holy Table, table of preparation, and tetrapod) which we started using Easter this year.

If indeed in marriage, the groom and the bride become one, then this makes sense.

 

[ProVobis]

I feel like a married priest deserves two salaries because his wife will usually end up doing as much for the parish as him - it’s how it happens in Protestant churches.

In the end, since it’s not doctrinal, it looks like it will all come down to simple economics.

 

[ProVobis]

I feel like a married priest deserves two salaries because his wife will usually end up doing as much for the parish as him - it’s how it happens in Protestant churches.

Who knows? In the end, since it’s not doctrinal, it may come down to simple economics.

 

[Credendum]

This isn’t about celibacy vs. marriage.
There is a contagious spiritual malaise in the world that would rid the Church of her call to holiness, whether by scandals or by lack of priests. In this sex-crazed world, celibacy is looked down upon no matter what. If priests have the option to marry, there will most likely be no celibate priests, and over time, celibacy may be disparaged altogether. It’s the way of human nature. Another poster said that sex is part of human nature. Sure it is, but we also have been given a spiritual nature, and we have to caution against pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Since the 1960s sex revolution, the world has borne more lovers of pleasure. There is a very fine line between sex for procreation and love of pleasure. Pope Paul VI addressed this further in Humanae Vitae.
Having said all this, I’m not saying that marriage is a lesser state than celibacy. In either state, there are chances of moving toward sin, so trading one set of problems for another does no good. It’s about being faithful to one’s calling in Holy Mother Church.

 

[hawkeye]

Good for him for speaking out about this!
How are we going to improve things if smart people high up do not give us their views on these topics? I think many people are afraid to say something they feel strongly about for fear they will just be shot down…but he is brave to say what he thinks.
There may be many who agree with him on this, but are silent.

And let us not forget…he has had daily dealings with hundreds of priests in his life so far. He knows better than us what challenges and tortures they go through. They may confide in him. He has more personal experience and wisdom than just the lay person on such matters.
What he says may help. There is only one way to find out…

Yes let him speak, but do it in Rome, no use barking up the media tree feeding it to a frenzy of vultures and their gutter press who are waiting in the wings to pounce at the first sneeze of this.
Candidates for the priesthood know what they are signing up for when they sign up, or they should, and if they don’t, then that’s going to create a problem…heat, kitchen, stay out.

Luke 9:[61] And another said: I will follow thee, Lord; but let me first take my leave of them that are at my house. [62] Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

[Irish_Pride]

The Catholic church has a lot more problems than just allowing priests to marry.Personally ,changes need to be made ,I am not sure how to address them.

 

[OraLabora]

This isn’t about celibacy vs. marriage.
There is a contagious spiritual malaise in the world that would rid the Church of her call to holiness, whether by scandals or by lack of priests. In this sex-crazed world, celibacy is looked down upon no matter what. If priests have the option to marry, there will most likely be no celibate priests, and over time, celibacy may be disparaged altogether. It’s the way of human nature. Another poster said that sex is part of human nature. Sure it is, but we also have been given a spiritual nature, and we have to caution against pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Since the 1960s sex revolution, the world has borne more lovers of pleasure. There is a very fine line between sex for procreation and love of pleasure. Pope Paul VI addressed this further in Humanae Vitae.
Having said all this, I’m not saying that marriage is a lesser state than celibacy. In either state, there are chances of moving toward sin, so trading one set of problems for another does no good. It’s about being faithful to one’s calling in Holy Mother Church.

There will always be celibates in the religious orders (monastics, clerical orders, mendicant orders, etc). Married clergy would necessarily be limited to diocesan priests and deacons and perhaps but not likely bishops.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

Yes let him speak, but do it in Rome, no use barking up the media tree feeding it to a frenzy of vultures and their gutter press who are waiting in the wings to pounce at the first sneeze of this.
Candidates for the priesthood know what they are signing up for when they sign up, or they should, and if they don’t, then that’s going to create a problem…heat, kitchen, stay out.

Luke 9:[61] And another said: I will follow thee, Lord; but let me first take my leave of them that are at my house. [62] Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I agree completely. What good does it to bring secular society into the problems of the Church? I might agree with what this priest has to say, but to bring in the media is a slap in the face to the Church in my opinion. Things of this nature should be done tactfully, period.

 

[barb_finnegan]

I think if more married men became deacons, it would solve some of the problem

Are you referring to ‘transitional deacons’? Permanent deacons can be married, but they can’t marry if they are single at the time of their ordination.

What’s with this crazy Bishop, wanting priests to get married? Does he think that financially hard-pressed parishioners will want to support a priest’s wife and kiddies? Will a priest’s wife and kiddies like the prospect of being uprooted every six to twelve years when he gets transferred to a new parish? [Yeah, I know that Protestant ministers have to go through this, but I talking about Catholic priests here]

THE PRIEST IS ALREADY ‘MARRIED’-TO THE CHURCH! THE CHURCH IS HIS ‘BRIDE’! THE PEOPLE UNDER HIS CARE ARE HIS ‘CHILDREN’!

And one more thing: THE PRIEST IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ‘ALTER CHRISTUS’ (Another Christ), AND .OUR. LORD .WAS. NOT. MARRIED!!! EVER!!! :banghead:

I’LL KEEP ON SAYING THE ABOVE THINGS TILL I’M BLUE IN THE FACE!!!

Sheesh-how clear can I make it?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I feel like a married priest deserves two salaries because his wife will usually end up doing as much for the parish as him - it’s how it happens in Protestant churches.

Deserve, yes. But wives are not paid unless they actually are employed by the Eparchy in some capacity. They could work as the Bishop’s secretary or accountant or whatever. But being part and parcel of parish life comes with the territory of marrying an eventual priest.

If indeed in marriage, the groom and the bride become one, then this makes sense.

It is important that the wife knows the husband when he’s already on his way to becoming a priest or deacon. I think its more difficult if its a married couple of 10 years living a secular life, then the husband decides to answer his calling. The wife may not agree to that. But also the Bishop would ask for the wife’s ascent on the matter. If the wife does not want the husband to be ordained, the Bishop will not ordain. I believe in the Latin Rite, a similar process for Deacons is in place.

 

[Roy5]

Just this morning, in reading the Our Sunday Visitor that arrived today, I read that of the 26 million Catholics in Germany only 3 million attend mass (I hope I cite those statistics correctly).

I attribute that situation, which exists in various other countries, too, in large part to a rigid church that doesn't want to even consider such major reforms as the marriage of priests. The Church needs to recognize that the world has changed. It can hide her head in the sand and insist that the traditional ways are the only valid ways, but no good will come out of this. 

Over the years I have read that when the Church has gone to Africa, for example, it has managed to accommodate many of the traditions there in the Mass. Maybe the beating of drums, and even certain ceremonial dances. If this is okay, why resist so adamantly other changes in line with our changing world? I was especially disturbed when the Pope - was it JPII? - said, in effect, that the marriage of clergy couldn't even be discussed. Isn't that what he said?

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

I don’t care what Protestants do. They can, in fact, they can pretty much do whatever they want. That’s what being a Protestant means: a sect for everyone. In fact, you can be your own Pope; a sect of one. It’s sad if Catholics are looking to them as any kind of example.

The orthodox only ordain celibate men to be bishops. A married orthodox priest, whose wife dies, cannot marry again. This means they value celibacy above the married status in their clergy.

Catholic religious are celibate. Catholic clergy too, save the oft-touted example of some few converts. It’s just the last hurrah of what I’ll call the Tinkering Tendency to call for celibacy to be abandoned. And I believe I can see the hand of the Devil in it, given the manufactured vocations crisis we now have.

Let’s try the proposition out:

“It will be a great boost towards our striving for sanctity if we let our priests marry”.

What does your gut say?

I think it’s sad the idea is even discussed seriously. Have a look at an old missal. “Feast of So and So, Virgin and Martyr”. I think it was at Fatima that the Virgin Mary lamented that there would be so few virgin souls in the world.

Very sad.

 

[m134e5]

Celibacy is considered a higher estate in the Catholic Church. It’s a sacrifice. A shame if dioscesan clergy abandon it.

Celibacy is not a bar to men becoming priests. We hear reports that seminaries answerable to traditionalist Bishops do not want for vocations. We also hear of good men being turned away from other seminaries because of ‘rigidity’.

Here’s how I think it works. A heterosexual man attends Mass and sees heavy and lay female involvement and a tendency to sentiment. Not particularly attractive.

A pious young man applies to become a priest anyway and finds out that that is not what is wanted. What is wanted is a pastor and presider, which are not the same thing. He sees a Church-appointed psychologist, who might mark him down as having a ‘messiah complex’.

If he gets into the seminary he may find that wanting to wear a cassock, not say the Luminous Mysteries or being interested in tradition might be best hid if he wants to survive to ordination: a curious thing in a school for priests, n’est pas?

A pious man will consider whether he wants to be a lonely, celibate presider at a Mass with heavy lay involvement and focus and decide against it. Those who persevere may get filtered out anyway.

Thus you have a ‘vocations crisis’: Simple probabilty in action across a population.

I know one way to fix a problem is not to keep doing the same thing you’ve being doing for years and expect different results.

Well said.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t care what Protestants do. They can, in fact, they can pretty much do whatever they want. That’s what being a Protestant means: a sect for everyone. In fact, you can be your own Pope; a sect of one. It’s sad if Catholics are looking to them as any kind of example.

The orthodox only ordain celibate men to be bishops. A married orthodox priest, whose wife dies, cannot marry again. This means they value celibacy above the married status in their clergy.

A few points here:

a. The celibacy of Bishops has been agreed by Ecumenical Council, which is followed by all East and West Churches until today
b. The rule that there are no marriages after ordination. So when the wife dies the ordained husband cannot marry because of that rule, not because he’s being forced into celibacy.
c. The Eastern view of marriage is different. A second marriage is a second marriage, even if the first wife has passed away. This goes from what St. Paul is talking about the bishop being a man of one wife. This has been extended to all ordained, and of course what happened later that a married man is not admitted to the episcopate (although I believe an ecclesiastical divorce can be done to admit a man into the episcopate, provided that the man and the wife become monastics after the divorce)

Also as I mentioned in a previous post here, celibacy is seen as a higher regard. But that doesn’t mean its the only way to become a clergy in the East. Like I said, married or celibate is a comparison of good or better, not bad or good.

Catholic religious are celibate. Catholic clergy too, save the oft-touted example of some few converts. It’s just the last hurrah of what I’ll call the Tinkering Tendency to call for celibacy to be abandoned. And I believe I can see the hand of the Devil in it, given the manufactured vocations crisis we now have.

Let’s try the proposition out:

“It will be a great boost towards our striving for sanctity if we let our priests marry”.

What does your gut say?

We shouldn’t let our priests marry. However, I believe married men should be admitted to the presbyteriate.

Virgin

Mary lamented that there would be so few virgin souls in the world.

Very sad.

Why is it sad? Are there no holy married men and women? I think the world sorely lacks role models of married life. Most of our saints are celibates. Where do we, who answered the call of married life, look for inspiration?

 

[Credendum]

THE PRIEST IS ALREADY ‘MARRIED’-TO THE CHURCH! THE CHURCH IS HIS ‘BRIDE’! THE PEOPLE UNDER HIS CARE ARE HIS ‘CHILDREN’!

And one more thing: THE PRIEST IS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ‘ALTER CHRISTUS’ (Another Christ), AND .OUR. LORD .WAS. NOT. MARRIED!!! EVER!!! :banghead:

I’LL KEEP ON SAYING THE ABOVE THINGS TILL I’M BLUE IN THE FACE!!!

Sheesh-how clear can I make it?

Amen x infinity!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Amen x infinity!

The Church is the bride of Christ, not the priest. Priests are not married to the Church.

 

[Credendum]

There will always be celibates in the religious orders (monastics, clerical orders, mendicant orders, etc). Married clergy would necessarily be limited to diocesan priests and deacons and perhaps but not likely bishops.

I must not have been clear enough. What I meant is that marriage in the priesthood opens the door for another kind of sin to creep in, namely, recreational sex. Of course that’s not the purpose of marriage, and that’s not to say priests will do that, but the chances of it happening will be greater than they are now, excluding church scandals.

 

[StAnastasia]

I must not have been clear enough. What I meant is that marriage in the priesthood opens the door for another kind of sin to creep in, namely, recreational sex.

And your objection to this is what?