Irish scandals, traditional Catholic culture, and the relation between Church and state

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lucybeebee

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The recent news about abuse in Church-run institutions in Ireland has caused me to think a lot about traditional Catholic teachings on the relations between Church and state. As most people here know, one of the statements condemned by Pius IX is, “The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.” The problem as I see it is that when there is no distinction between Church and State, the former becomes tainted with the inequities of the latter, as was the case in Franco’s Spain and with Argentina’s dirty war. While it is true that all sectors of society ought to proclaim Christ as King, a too cosy relationship between Church and State seems to simply put a superficial Christian veneer over immoral and dangerous activities. In the case of the situation in Ireland, I believe the Church ran these places at the behest of the government. This whole scandal seems to destroy the notion that Church institutions are inherently more compassionate, moral, and well-run than their secular equivilents. The fact that this scandal took place in a traditionally Catholic country where the Church had a lot of power and influence is particularly troubling. As the bulk of these abuse took place before Vatican II, they can’t be blamed on the council. Since abuse occurred at Catholic institutions in Canada and Australia, I’m really starting to wonder what was or is going on in the English-speaking Catholic world that causes these abuse scandals to keep happening.
 
I agree. Another good example is the Spanish Inquisition. Look what happened there. Of course, Christ should reign, and God’s laws should not be excluded from states, lest the world should fall into an even darker state of sin. Secularism in society shouldn’t come about due to the state either. But I agree, there should be some sort of separation of Church and state, so that the two don’t corrupt each other.

On what happened in Ireland, we should pray in atonement for these terrible terrible sins.
 
thunderballs75 said:
I agree. Another good example is the Spanish Inquisition. Look what happened there. Of course, Christ should reign, and God’s laws should not be excluded from states, lest the world should fall into an even darker state of sin. Secularism in society shouldn’t come about due to the state either. But I agree, there should be some sort of separation of Church and state, so that the two don’t corrupt each other.

On what happened in Ireland, we should pray in atonement for these terrible terrible sins.
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Yeah…

The Spanish Inquisition wasn’t as bad as it was described by later (Protestant) historians.

And, the State ran that one.
 
lucybeebee said:
The recent news about abuse in Church-run institutions in Ireland has caused me to think a lot about traditional Catholic teachings on the relations between Church and state. As most people here know, one of the statements condemned by Pius IX is, “The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.” The problem as I see it is that when there is no distinction between Church and State, the former becomes tainted with the inequities of the latter, as was the case in Franco’s Spain and with Argentina’s dirty war. While it is true that all sectors of society ought to proclaim Christ as King, a too cosy relationship between Church and State seems to simply put a superficial Christian veneer over immoral and dangerous activities. In the case of the situation in Ireland, I believe the Church ran these places at the behest of the government. This whole scandal seems to destroy the notion that Church institutions are inherently more compassionate, moral, and well-run than their secular equivilents. The fact that this scandal took place in a traditionally Catholic country where the Church had a lot of power and influence is particularly troubling. As the bulk of these abuse took place before Vatican II, they can’t be blamed on the council. Since abuse occurred at Catholic institutions in Canada and Australia, I’m really starting to wonder what was or is going on in the English-speaking Catholic world that causes these abuse scandals to keep happening.
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Two facts undermine your hypothesis.

You don’t mention the U.S. In the American abuse case, it’s really difficult to claim that the state somehow tainted the Church. (That’s not to say that abuse happened only within the church.)

In the Irish case, if similar abuse was happening in state institutions that were not administered by the Church, then you could claim the church abuse was part of a larger pattern.
 
The_Prodigal said:
Two facts undermine your hypothesis.

You don’t mention the U.S. In the American abuse case, it’s really difficult to claim that the state somehow tainted the Church. (That’s not to say that abuse happened only within the church.)

In the Irish case, if similar abuse was happening in state institutions that were not administered by the Church, then you could claim the church abuse was part of a larger pattern.
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Yes, that’s true. The state wasn’t involved in the U.S. case. I think I was accidently mixing two ideas together with that statement. What I was trying to express why abuse scandals have occurred in so many English-speaking countries. The relationship between the Church and state in each of these nations will be different depending on the laws of said country.
 
Here’s a thought that occurs to me - but it is really ugly to consider. Many Irish priests made their way to America in the 20th century; I don’t know if the same can be said of Canada and Australia, but especially in the case of Australia, it wouldn’t surprise me. So could the connection be the Irish church?
 
The_Prodigal said:
Here’s a thought that occurs to me - but it is really ugly to consider. Many Irish priests made their way to America in the 20th century; I don’t know if the same can be said of Canada and Australia, but especially in the case of Australia, it wouldn’t surprise me. So could the connection be the Irish church?
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I suppose it’s a possibility, but could you expand on the how of it?
Irish Catholicism in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s was orthodox and traditional. How would that have produced priests, brothers and nuns in religious congregations who would stray so far from the charisms of their founders?
 
Note: this is pure speculation prompted by the OP and the idea that there is some common feature of the abuse scandals in the English-speaking world.

Perhaps a culture of abuse existed in the Irish church and spread to the other countries with priests and religious from Ireland. (In no way would that idea absolve the Church and its hierarchy in those other countries from responsibility.) Let’s not forget that Catholicism is a cosmopolitan religion; maybe it’s a mistake to think that all these cases are isolated from one another.
 
Yellow_Belle said:
I suppose it’s a possibility, but could you expand on the how of it?
Irish Catholicism in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s was orthodox and traditional. How would that have produced priests, brothers and nuns in religious congregations who would stray so far from the charisms of their founders?
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According to news items about the Irish report, the abuse is traced back to the 30s.
 
The_Prodigal said:
Note: this is pure speculation prompted by the OP and the idea that there some common feature of the abuse scandals in the English-speaking world.

Perhaps a culture of abuse existed in the Irish church and spread to the other countries with priests and religious from Ireland. (In no way would that idea absolve the Church and its hierarchy in those other countries from responsibility.) Let’s not forget that Catholicism is a cosmopolitan religion; maybe it’s a mistake to think that all these cases are isolated from one another.
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But how would a ‘culture of abuse’ come about in an orthodox, traditional setting?
 
The_Prodigal said:
According to news items about the Irish report, the abuse is traced back to the 30s.
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I know. I live in Ireland and have read the report. I’m interested in your opinions on how a traditional, orthodox Catholic Church could have produced ordained and religious members who abused children?
 
Yellow_Belle said:
But how would a ‘culture of abuse’ come about in an orthodox, traditional setting?
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People are sinners?

Adam and Eve sinned in the most perfect place on Earth. lol.

Also, for those who are casting this huge assumption on the Irish Church - be wary. It could be very offensive to MANY people. And, last I checked, being offensive on this board isn’t taken kindly.

Plus, the abuse cases, numerically, were very small, when compared to the general Catholic population (and secular institutions).
 
I can’t explain what happened in Ireland from the 30’s to the 90’s. I’m just speculating about the possibility that abuse spread to other countries from Ireland.
 
The_Prodigal said:
I can’t explain what happened in Ireland from the 30’s to the 90’s. I’m just speculating about the possibility that abuse spread to other countries from Ireland.
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People are sinners, it isnt a rash thats spread from person to person.

we shouldnt judge our religion on the conduct of its members, but whether or not it teaches truth in accordance with Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

May the Lord have mercy on those who do such terrible things.

God bless
Stephen<3
 
OraProNobisIHM said:
People are sinners? **👍 Undoubtedly, but it doesn’t explain why so many ordained and religious abused children in their care. **
Adam and Eve sinned in the most perfect place on Earth. lol.

Also, for those who are casting this huge assumption on the Irish Church - be wary. It could be very offensive to MANY people. And, last I checked, being offensive on this board isn’t taken kindly.**Thank you for this. I’m sure many people would be offended but The Prodigal is just speculating, on the why and how of what to so many people is a baffling occurrence. The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin had this to say to the religious congregations:
What happened that you drifted so far from your charism? I believe that you owe it to your good members to try to answer that question. Your credibility and the credibility and survival of your charism depend on the honesty with which you go about that soul searching. This may be a painful task, but it is unavoidable if it is to be possible for your charism to survive…What was lost was more than just a charism. Somehow along the way the most essential dimension of the life of the followers of Christ got lost by many. The Christian message is a message of love. What the Ryan Commission recounts is sadly so very far removed from that. In Jesus’ eyes the poor deserve the best and they did not receive it here
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Yellow_Belle:
where is your evidence to prove your assumption that the catholic church produces more abuses than the secular world?
 
FWIW my grandparents were Irish. It gives me no satisfaction whatsoever to even suggest that an abusive church culture originated in and spread from Ireland.

To return to the OP’s point, perhaps religious in Canada and Australia were all too willing to embrace the culture of abuse in the interest of and with the connivance of the state. In the US, the sexually perverse aspect predominated and the state was not involved.
 
Fact: 97% of abuse in Ireland, takes place within the extended family.
 
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