Irrefutable proof of the existence of God

[tonyrey]

Oh and also, I asked this before but no one replied, can you help me?

There are many people at my school who are non-christians (even though it is a catholic school) who say my religion is all lies. Someone at my school was recently arguing to me about it & said:
“You claim to be christian yet has clearly not read the bible in its entirety.
God telling his people how to purchase slaves (including children): Lev 25: 44
God telling people how to treat their slaves: Ex 21: 2
God telling people its okay to beat your slaves, so long as they dn’t die: Ex 21: 20
God telling slaves to obey their masters as they would Christ: Eph 6: 5”

I am in my ‘young’ teen years, getting ready for confirmation, and I have not yet read the whole bible. So, what is leviticus? I know these quotes are real but that doesn’t make sense… God would never say these things! I am so confused, if only someone here could help me, I would be so grateful! Thank you and God bless

The Old Testament is a collection of writings by Hebrews who were often inspired but far from being infallible! It should always be interpreted in the light of the New Testament, i.e. according the teaching of Jesus that God is a loving Father.

 

[itt23r]

To Orangebookbag and Absoultionbliss

it23r, I ordered the booklet and look forward to reading it.
A few preliminary questions:

Are you continuing your research on the subject of the 2/3 rule?

No. I intend to continually come out with newer additions of the book as others make further inroads into the theory but I honestly feel I have uncovered about as much as I can and that it is now time to pass the baton on to people who have spent their lives in the fields I merely touch upon in the book.

Are you considering any means of promoting your work besides the catholic answers forum?

If I was smart I would. Do you have some suggestions?

Have you read any other similar books that inspired you to pursue God through mathematical inquiry? You may be interested in Georg Cantor, Pascal, and Kurt Gödel to name a few.

The only inspiration I had to pursue a mathematical approach to finding God was our mother Mary, through a statement she made to the mystic Fr. Stephan Gobbi. I have since found that another researcher, Gerald Schroeder, proposed a similar theory in his 1997 book “The Science of God.” But his theory pertains only to the 6 Days of Creation and being that he is Jewish he was apparently incapable of seeing how all of Creation was focussed upon Christ’s death at Calvary. Had he seen that his book would have beaten mine by 14 years. As it is, his math is slightly off, and his theory really can’t get off the ground because of it.

And lastly, what was the atheist forum you posted on a few months ago? I would love to see the reaction from the skeptical community as well.

I can’t recall the name other than to say it was on a website newsletter run by the president of the Georgia chapter of American atheists (and I am not sure if that is the correct name of the organization either). My main memory is that I was not treated very well there and unlike here there was no one there who would stick up for me and my right to have an opinion. On that site they were incessantly brutal. And after just a few days i couldn’t take the oppression anymore and saw no end in sight so I ended by simply telling them my conversion story. I then knocked the dust off of my shoes and got out of there. I’ve not been back to see their reaction. A few days later I did end up selling four booklets, though and I assume it was to them. But oddly they all went to the same person.

Related to this, in the epilogue of my book, the 2/3rds Rule suggests we have just entered the decade of the atheist and we are all being charged by God to do battle on this front. They’re not pulling any punches anymore and neither can we. There is way too much at stake now.

Peace and thank you for the questions.

 

[itt23r]

To AbsolutionBliss

Oh and also, I asked this before but no one replied, can you help me?

There are many people at my school who are non-christians (even though it is a catholic school) who say my religion is all lies. Someone at my school was recently arguing to me about it & said:
“You claim to be christian yet has clearly not read the bible in its entirety.
God telling his people how to purchase slaves (including children): Lev 25: 44
God telling people how to treat their slaves: Ex 21: 2
God telling people its okay to beat your slaves, so long as they dn’t die: Ex 21: 20
God telling slaves to obey their masters as they would Christ: Eph 6: 5”

I am in my ‘young’ teen years, getting ready for confirmation, and I have not yet read the whole bible. So, what is leviticus? I know these quotes are real but that doesn’t make sense… God would never say these things! I am so confused, if only someone here could help me, I would be so grateful! Thank you and God bless

Leviticus is a book of the Bible pertaining in part to the rules of conduct for the priestly class of the Israelites. And those rules can seem kind of confusing and uncharitable to us today unless they are viewed in full context with the superior rules of conduct presented in the New Testament that they prefigure. When the book, for instance, seems to show prejudice against people who have physical deformities (Leviticus 21:16-23), it sounds cruel but it is really to be understood in New Testament terms as a prejudice against those who have certain spiritual impediments. The same goes for much of the Pentateuch where concrete ideas often take on a more spiritual dimension through the life of Christ. Another example is the Ark of the Covenant (made of purest gold) which was just a prefigurement of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant and the immaculate mother of God.

But I do know from my own experience when I was your age that Leviticus is a tough book to get through. My advice to you then is to read the footnotes (if your Bible has them) as you go through it and bear with it. It does get easier once you get through Deuteronomy. And the blessings you receive from reading the entire Bible cannot be counted.

Regarding slavery, TonyRey has given you some very good reflections on this subject. Let me add a few of my own. I have been told (and the wrtings of the Pentateuch back this up) that there are two forms of slavery, a malevolent and a more benevolent form. When we think of slavery today we don’t generally make this disctinction. We think of only the malevolent form where people are treated worse than animals or as though they had no souls and we are shocked that God would say anything favorable about it, let alone provide rules of conduct for the institution.

Well the fact is God does not in any way condone the malevolent form of slavery and we see this clearly in His pulling his chosen people out of their bondage in Egypt where we hear in Exodus 1:12-14 they were treated terribly.

The more benevolent form of slavery is one that might be likened to another form of employment. And, back before we had governments and charitable institutions that could help out, it was not uncommon for the poor to sell themselves or their children into the benevolent form of slavery just to stave off starvation. Hence the need for God to step in to give us some rules on how to treat slaves benevolently until such time that public assistance programs for the poor would arise to a sufficient capacity that benevolent slavery could cease to exist.

In the western half of the globe that didn’t really happen until somewhere around the 19th century so that’s how long it took before slavery ended.

And I would further point out to your non-Christian friends that the eventual abolition of slavery in western civilization was also an act of God. It is not found in the Bible, but God’s interactions on this earth did not end with the writings of the New Testament. As Christians we continue to do God’s will on earth. And one of the greatest achievements God has accomplished through his Christians, to date, is the abolition of slavery (of which the Catholic Church was in the forefront). It wasn’t the atheists for all their bragging that brought down slavery. Nor was it any other non-Christian group. It was the Christians manifest as the mystical Body of Christ that did it.

That’s my take on it anyway, I hope it helps. And congratulations on your upcoming Confirmation

 

[jochoa]

I am in my ‘young’ teen years, getting ready for confirmation, and I have not yet read the whole bible. So, what is leviticus? I know these quotes are real but that doesn’t make sense… God would never say these things! I am so confused, if only someone here could help me, I would be so grateful! Thank you and God bless

My friend, you present many excellent questions, please consider the following simple justifications:
In my studies, I have found that the OT is based on the perspective of the authority (the Father). However, in order to understand the perspective of the Father, one must first understand the perspective of the Son. Since your schoolmates are not understanding the perspective of the Son or how His creation works, they will not be able to understand the perspective of the OT. The concept is: We must first dedicate our lives to being more like Jesus Christ, the Son. Once we are perfect at that, we can then learn how to be like Jesus Christ, the Father.

To help your friends fall in love with Jesus Christ, have them consider the following:
As God, the Creator, Jesus Christ wanted other people to freely choose to be as perfectly patient and kind as he is. The reason he wanted/wants this is because when someone freely choose to be a perfectly patient and kind as he is, not only will that person have the same unbreakable peace and perfect happiness Jesus Christ has, the relationship between Jesus Christ and the person who freely chooses to be patient and kind, can now experience a limitless happiness.
The key and challenging concept in this is creating a free-willed person. An incredibly advanced creation filled with infinitely perceivable connections is necessary to establish free-will in creations. In other words, try to imagine, if you were the Creator, what all would it take just to get one person to not know they were created? Now try to recognize how many other creations and events it would take to ensure that not a single creation/creature could definitively know they were not created by you. And since you want a person to freely choose to love as you do, and you will make certain you get what you want, try to imagine how complex the plan has to be in order to ensure that the creations/creatures will not definitively know they are being guided by you throughout the process. And recognize that you must ensure that every person has the same right to your love. If they want it, they can be guided by you. As well as if they don’t want it, and do not seek how to love as you love, you cannot guide them for that would break free-will.

In the end, the answers are very simple: Every single person wants happiness.
In order to have happiness, there must be desires and actions of kindness. Without the desire, any act of kindness would yield unhappiness in the actor. Without the kindness, no level of happiness, greater than peace, can be attained.
In order to have happiness, there must be peace.
In order to have peace, there must be patience. The instance there is impatience, peace is lost.
Which is why Jesus Christ says to Love, where Love is patient and Love is kind.

Now recognize that your schoolmates do not know Jesus Christ is Truth. Therefore, it can be said that Jesus Christ achieved the first objective of creating free-willed humans. The greater question becomes, will they choose to strive to be as patient and kind as he is, so our society can grow in peace and happiness. If they choose to, embrace them fully as a dear friend who will help guide them and you to see the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church. If they choose not to, always pray for them as a loving neighbor to have a change of heart, so they and their relationships can experience the unbreakable peace and limitless happiness of living in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Thank you very much for the challenging questions. I thoroughly enjoyed pondering them. I look forward to learning from you as to where my reasoning is limited or inaccurate.

Please ask as many questions as you need answered to help realize the Absolute Truth in Jesus Christ and His Holy Catholic Church, for your questions help me grow in understanding and faith.

Thoughts?

 

[tonyrey]

To AbsolutionBliss

Leviticus is a book of the Bible pertaining in part to the rules of conduct for the priestly class of the Israelites. And those rules can seem kind of confusing and uncharitable to us today unless they are viewed in full context with the superior rules of conduct presented in the New Testament that they prefigure. When the book, for instance, seems to show prejudice against people who have physical deformities (Leviticus 21:16-23), it sounds cruel but it is really to be understood in New Testament terms as a prejudice against those who have certain spiritual impediments. The same goes for much of the Pentateuch where concrete ideas often take on a more spiritual dimension through the life of Christ. Another example is the Ark of the Covenant (made of purest gold) which was just a prefigurement of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant and the immaculate mother of God.

But I do know from my own experience when I was your age that Leviticus is a tough book to get through. My advice to you then is to read the footnotes (if your Bible has them) as you go through it and bear with it. It does get easier once you get through Deuteronomy. And the blessings you receive from reading the entire Bible cannot be counted.

…I have been told (and the wrtings of the Pentateuch back this up) that there are two forms of slavery, a malevolent and a more benevolent form. When we think of slavery today we don’t generally make this disctinction. We think of only the malevolent form where people are treated worse than animals or as though they had no souls and we are shocked that God would say anything favorable about it, let alone provide rules of conduct for the institution.

Well the fact is God does not in any way condone the malevolent form of slavery and we see this clearly in His pulling his chosen people out of their bondage in Egypt where we hear in Exodus 1:12-14 they were treated terribly.

The more benevolent form of slavery is one that might be likened to another form of employment. And, back before we had governments and charitable institutions that could help out, it was not uncommon for the poor to sell themselves or their children into the benevolent form of slavery just to stave off starvation. Hence the need for God to step in to give us some rules on how to treat slaves benevolently until such time that public assistance programs for the poor would arise to a sufficient capacity that benevolent slavery could cease to exist.

In the western half of the globe that didn’t really happen until somewhere around the 19th century so that’s how long it took before slavery ended.

And I would further point out to your non-Christian friends that the eventual abolition of slavery in western civilization was also an act of God. It is not found in the Bible, but God’s interactions on this earth did not end with the writings of the New Testament. As Christians we continue to do God’s will on earth. And one of the greatest achievements God has accomplished through his Christians, to date, is the abolition of slavery (of which the Catholic Church was in the forefront). It wasn’t the atheists for all their bragging that brought down slavery. Nor was it any other non-Christian group. It was the Christians manifest as the mystical Body of Christ that did it…

Bravo! You have stated facts which are irrefutable.

The principles of liberty, equality and fraternity are based on Christ’s teaching that we are all made in the image of one Father in heaven - and not sparks in the dark which exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever…

 

[AbsolutionBliss]

@itt23r Thank you so much! That is a lot to take in, many beautiful points that will with no doubt help me in persuading my friends!
@jochoa Thank you so much as well! Your guide to helping my nonchristian friends into falling for Jesus’ love was truly beautiful. I bet you, no doubt, they will struggle for words of denial, as there is no way to oppose the Lord’s strong love. You have reminded me just how pleasant and warm the feeling of God beside me can be, I will be sure to mention that!
@tonyrey Thank you, that wraps this up very well!

All of you have no idea how much I appreciate your guidance & time to help me with this! There are many people who do not even take the time to understand how beautiful & pure God really is & only look on anit-christian groups for points to prove the word of God wrong.

This will help me so much and pray that I may be as wise & confident as all of you in my actions to defend my beautiful religion!

God bless, Merry Christmas, and I will be sure to come here again if I need spiritual guidance or questions!

 

[AbsolutionBliss]

Alright, well I told her almost all of what you guys said/what I have learnt, but she says this:
“The fact that you defend the ownership of another human being, no matter the circumstances, says a lot about you. Particularly considering this “benevolent” slavery still allows for the beating of slaves (Ex 21 : 20). And people say I have no morals because I’m atheist!
He led the hebrews out of Egypt because they were his “chosen” people. Your god, aside from being cruel enough to condone owning and beating a human being, is also rather ethnocentric.”

I told her that God is obviously strictly against the ownership of another human being & everything else you told me, she was quiet for a while, but then she just repeated the verses again & said what she said up there in quotes ^

EDIT:
the reason I am asking for help on this is that I don’t want to tell her something that doesn’t make sense or just sounds stupid, I really want to give her a wonderful perspective on the Catholic faith. It almost scares me when she says such things about God.
I am not fully prepared (as am I not yet confirmed) to defend my faith & so I would really love to see/know how devout, wise Catholics handle these situations. Which, usually when I see them argue, it is not only with powerful bible versus, but mostly great understanding/perspective of Christ’s love & knowledge of truth.

 

[dandingo]

Alright, well I told her almost all of what you guys said/what I have learnt, but she says this:
“The fact that you defend the ownership of another human being, no matter the circumstances, says a lot about you. Particularly considering this “benevolent” slavery still allows for the beating of slaves (Ex 21 : 20). And people say I have no morals because I’m atheist!
He led the hebrews out of Egypt because they were his “chosen” people. Your god, aside from being cruel enough to condone owning and beating a human being, is also rather ethnocentric.”

I told her that God is obviously strictly against the ownership of another human being & everything else you told me, she was quiet for a while, but then she just repeated the verses again & said what she said up there in quotes ^

EDIT:
the reason I am asking for help on this is that I don’t want to tell her something that doesn’t make sense or just sounds stupid, I really want to give her a wonderful perspective on the Catholic faith. It almost scares me when she says such things about God.
I am not fully prepared (as am I not yet confirmed) to defend my faith & so I would really love to see/know how devout, wise Catholics handle these situations. Which, usually when I see them argue, it is not only with powerful bible versus, but mostly great understanding/perspective of Christ’s love & knowledge of truth.

Just as itt23r said, much of the reason for someone going into slavery was to avoid the starvation of themselves and their family. Not only that, but ‘slavery’ had a different meaning than we understand it today. And what they were doing was something like a baseball player going into a contract. There are many baseball players, from 3rd world countries, who go into contracts with baseball teams and the owners and managers have, in the contract, certain ways that the player is to be treated. These players do this in order to save their families, and sometimes their whole towns, from starvation.

Thank the Lord that these contracts were enforced at all. In secular, atheist countries like North Korea, Nazi Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union, there are and were no contracts. People simply were born and died under what the totalitarian regime, in which the dictator decided what was deemed moral that was it.

Is it appropriate for a parent to discipline their child with force if the situation requires it? Absolutely? In fact, I would say that it’s immoral to not in certain situations. But is it OK for a person to beat their child so badly that it inflicts permanent harm or even death? Of course not! Has your atheist friend ever been in boot camp in the military? Soldiers are forced to do things that practically put them on the brink of death. I think she’s grasping for straws at this point.

Disclaimer: This is just one man’s opinions.

 

[AbsolutionBliss]

@dandingo Thank you for your help ! I think I got her this time xD

I really need an answer to these two questions though:

“this “benevolent” slavery still allows for the beating of slaves (Ex 21 : 20).”
and
“He led the hebrews out of Egypt because they were his “chosen” people.”

 

[dandingo]

@dandingo Thank you for your help ! I think I got her this time xD

I really need an answer to these two questions though:

“this “benevolent” slavery still allows for the beating of slaves (Ex 21 : 20).”
and
“He led the hebrews out of Egypt because they were his “chosen” people.”

Here is a good explanation for Exodus 21:20 …

rationalchristianity.net/slavery_ot.html

Here’s the beginning …

*The law protected slaves from being abused by their masters:

Killing a slave merited punishment.1 (Ex 21:20)
**Permanently injured slaves had to be set free (Ex 21:26-27)**
Slaves who ran away from oppressive masters were effectively freed (Dt 23:15-16)*

Your friend took 21:20 and singled it out. If a master had to set a slave free early because of permanent, do you really think that that master would go hard on any of his slaves? I would even deduce that the master may steer clear from it altogether to avoid that.

As for the second point, I have no problem with God leading the Hebrews out of Egypt because they were the chosen people. I’m not a Hebrew and yet I still love and believe in God. What is her objection?

 

[Thaelros]

@dandingo Thank you for your help ! I think I got her this time xD

I really need an answer to these two questions though:

“this “benevolent” slavery still allows for the beating of slaves (Ex 21 : 20).” - It’s quite possible that slavery (both malignant and benevolent) was so intertwined into ancient society that changing the established norms would lead to drastic consequences. The Founding Fathers didn’t outlaw slavery because the consequences would have decimated the economy of a fragile, newborn nation. They figured the future generations would work it out. So one could assume that God was thinking similarly.
and
“He led the hebrews out of Egypt because they were his “chosen” people.” - God chose the Jews because they were the most qualified people to bring about the establishment of the Catholic Church (in other words, to bring about the birth of Christ). The Jews of ancient time were extremely familial, so it is only fitting that God chose them out of all others.

 

[AbsolutionBliss]

Thanks again That website will really help and clear this whole thing up

Her point about God & the hebrews was “God only chose the ‘hebrews’ to save”

Alright now this conversation first started about homosexuality, the act of which as a Catholic I am strictly against, that will explain what she said just now:

“So you acknowledge that christians, over the centuries, have had to change their ideas regarding slavery, as the cultural shifted around it. Why can the same not be said for homosexuality? How do you choose which teachings still need to be abided, and which are no longer culturally relevant?
And do you really think it’s okay to beat another human being, even if it takes them “a day or two” to recover? (Ex 20 : 21) Since when are athletes severely beaten?”

she also just said this… xD:

“So people had to do what was necessary to survive. Ok. So why is slavery okay, but prostitution is not? Both are contracts, according to you. Both are done in to survive.
“There is nothing in the bible that says slavery is right, where did you hear this?”
This statement of yours above already proves you don’t know the bible for beans. Then OOPS someone actually has READ the bible, so you had to modify your original statement to include “benevolent” slavery.”

 

[dandingo]

Thanks again That website will really help and clear this whole thing up

Her point about God & the hebrews was “God only chose the ‘hebrews’ to save”

So what? Why not complain that we weren’t born with wings or gills? This is a pointless argument against the existence of God.

Alright now this conversation first started about homosexuality, the act of which as a Catholic I am strictly against, that will explain what she said just now:

“So you acknowledge that christians, over the centuries, have had to change their ideas regarding slavery, as the cultural shifted around it. Why can the same not be said for homosexuality? How do you choose which teachings still need to be abided, and which are no longer culturally relevant?
And do you really think it’s okay to beat another human being, even if it takes them “a day or two” to recover? (Ex 20 : 21) Since when are athletes severely beaten?”

The Catholic view on homosexuality is that the homesexual act is a sin, not the homosexual. The Catholic Church asks that the homosexual abstain from sex just as the priest and the single, non-married Catholic must. Being a homosexual is not a sin. Acting on it is.

Christians haven’t changed their ideas regarding slavery. Slavery has not only existed as long as we have records, but has also been accepted. Christians are the ones that ABOLISHED slavery.

Someone with more knowledge can chime in here. I don’t fully know the answer to the second part but I would say that if your child is doing something that is either going to endanger themselves or another and had complete disregard, would it be OK to give them a good smack, even if it made it uncomfortable to sit down for a day?

From that link:

“Most likely, this law was intended to distinguish between cases where a slave died as a direct result of their master’s mistreatment and where they died of natural causes. It could of course be the case that a slave was severely beaten but didn’t succumb to their injuries for a few days. In that situation, the case could have been brought before the priests and they could have used common sense and ruled that it was murder (cf. Dt 17:8-11). One should keep in mind that the laws given in the OT are examples, not legalese. For instance, Ex. 21:33-34 mentions only an ox or donkey falling into a pit, but that hardly means that if another animal fell into someone’s pit the owner wouldn’t receive compensation.”

she also just said this… xD:

“So people had to do what was necessary to survive. Ok. So why is slavery okay, but prostitution is not? Both are contracts, according to you. Both are done in to survive.
“There is nothing in the bible that says slavery is right, where did you hear this?”
This statement of yours above already proves you don’t know the bible for beans. Then OOPS someone actually has READ the bible, so you had to modify your original statement to include “benevolent” slavery.”

What I find interesting is that this person enjoys debating with a teenager who has probably studied the bible as much as any teenager. Why doesn’t she start a debate with someone that has studied the bible immensely? From what I’ve gathered, once you give her an answer she’s just going to move on to the next thing and try to avoid acknowledging the response. You’re only going to go in circles with her.

I’d highly recommend starting a new thread with all of the questions you have. You’ll get many more responses and probably much better than mine.

 

[AbsolutionBliss]

Again, I don’t know how to thank you, I couldn’t really have stood up to this person without all your help. And yes, that is a good idea, I put a new thread in the “Moral theology” forum
God bless

 

[itt23r]

To all

Wow; looks like I missed a lot by being away for the night. And I agree with the conclusion that the subjects being discussed are probably best carried over to a new or different thread. But I do want to acknowledge that there seem to be some exceptionally good Catholic apologists viewing this thread. And to their comments I would like to add my own parting advice and an observation if AbsolutionBliss is still tuning in.

To AbsolutionBliss

Debating with an atheist especially one who was brought up an atheist (and is still living with their parents) can be very difficult because in order that you succeed they not only have to discard everything they believe in, they also have to accept something that is contrary to everything their parents believe. A double whammy.

My advice then is to not approach it with the idea of winning. Approach it with the idea of simply standing up for your faith. You do have the Truth on your side and so your friend’s exposure to it will have an effect. Whether or not it will result in your friend’s immediate conversion is hard to say. But conversion is most often the cumulative effect of exposure to many Christians (like yourself) who are not afraid to learn about their Faith and testify to it when called to. So just do what you can do and leave the converting part of it in the hands of the Holy Spirit and you will likely see a lot of miracles in your life because of it. And I am not saying that you are not already proceeding in this way. i’m just throwing it out there.

As to the observation: when I first converted back from atheism there were some issues I still had with Church teaching. My particular difficulty was the Trinity. I couldn’t see why it was so necessary that all churches see Jesus Christ as God. I couldn’t even say with certainty that I could see it. So what did God do in my formation process? He brought a Jehovah’s Witness and a Church of God member into my life. And both of them attacked me because of the Catholic Church’s stance on the Trinity which they thought idiotic. So I took them on, answering one by one all of their objections and in the process of teaching them (converting one actually) I learned myself that Jesus Christ really is God. But I did not find this out by prayer or by study - though both certainly helped. In my frustration (after poring through all the literature, through the Scriptures and through all the writings of the early Church fathers on the subject and not finding anything conclusive) I finally just threw my arms up and accepted it by faith that it was true. The Chruch had not steered me wrong on the matter of whether Christ is truly present in the Eucharist (the basis of my conversion) and so I thought she would not steer me wrong on this. And sure enough once I accepted this Dogma, simply by faith, the scales fell from my eyes and I started to see evidence of the Trinity everywhere I looked. It was just as St. Augustine had said. “Credo ut intelligam. - I believe, that I might understand.” In some situations that is just what you have to do. And once you’ve done this enough without getting burnt you will come to accept everything that the Church teaches with confidence and your debating skills will increase 1,000 fold. Because, as you’ve no doubt been told many times, in matters of Faith and Morals.you really do have the Truth on your side. Armed with that knowledge you can walk into a lion’s den without being bruised?

But what I am mainly trying to point out to you AbsolutionBliss is that there are two sides to your debate going on and one of them is your own formation. God is preparing you to be one of his soldiers in the battle against evil, maybe one of his generals How far you go all depends on how much you are willing to study about your faith for the sake of helping others. So read the Bible, read the Chatechism, read the writings of the early Church Fathers. Read everything you can get your hands on (pro and con). At your age you have the potential to do some really great things for God in this world, and He will most certainly make good use of your service if you allow Him. Let me also add that He’s a great boss. Lotsa perks.

So blessings to you again on your upcoming Confirmation. It sounds as though God has already commenced in forming you into one of his warriors.

 

[Neildown]

To all

Wow; looks like I missed a lot by being away for the night. And I agree with the conclusion that the subjects being discussed are probably best carried over to a new or different thread. But I do want to acknowledge that there seem to be some exceptionally good Catholic apologists viewing this thread. And to their comments I would like to add my own parting advice and an observation if AbsolutionBliss is still tuning in.

To AbsolutionBliss

Debating with an atheist especially one who was brought up an atheist (and is still living with their parents) can be very difficult because in order that you succeed they not only have to discard everything they believe in, they also have to accept something that is contrary to everything their parents believe. A double whammy.

My advice then is to not approach it with the idea of winning. Approach it with the idea of simply standing up for your faith. You do have the Truth on your side and so your friend’s exposure to it will have an effect. Whether or not it will result in your friend’s immediate conversion is hard to say. But conversion is most often the cumulative effect of exposure to many Christians (like yourself) who are not afraid to learn about their Faith and testify to it when called to. So just do what you can do and leave the converting part of it in the hands of the Holy Spirit and you will likely see a lot of miracles in your life because of it. And I am not saying that you are not already proceeding in this way. i’m just throwing it out there.

As to the observation: when I first converted back from atheism there were some issues I still had with Church teaching. My particular difficulty was the Trinity. I couldn’t see why it was so necessary that all churches see Jesus Christ as God. I couldn’t even say with certainty that I could see it. So what did God do in my formation process? He brought a Jehovah’s Witness and a Church of God member into my life. And both of them attacked me because of the Catholic Church’s stance on the Trinity which they thought idiotic. So I took them on, answering one by one all of their objections and in the process of teaching them (converting one actually) I learned myself that Jesus Christ really is God. But I did not find this out by prayer or by study - though both certainly helped. In my frustration (after poring through all the literature, through the Scriptures and through all the writings of the early Church fathers on the subject and not finding anything conclusive) I finally just threw my arms up and accepted it by faith that it was true. The Chruch had not steered me wrong on the matter of whether Christ is truly present in the Eucharist (the basis of my conversion) and so I thought she would not steer me wrong on this. And sure enough once I accepted this Dogma, simply by faith, the scales fell from my eyes and I started to see evidence of the Trinity everywhere I looked. It was just as St. Augustine had said. “Credo ut intelligam. - I believe, that I might understand.” In some situations that is just what you have to do. And once you’ve done this enough without getting burnt you will come to accept everything that the Church teaches with confidence and your debating skills will increase 1,000 fold. Because, as you’ve no doubt been told many times, in matters of Faith and Morals.you really do have the Truth on your side. Armed with that knowledge you can walk into a lion’s den without being bruised?

But what I am mainly trying to point out to you AbsolutionBliss is that there are two sides to your debate going on and one of them is your own formation. God is preparing you to be one of his soldiers in the battle against evil, maybe one of his generals How far you go all depends on how much you are willing to study about your faith for the sake of helping others. So read the Bible, read the Chatechism, read the writings of the early Church Fathers. Read everything you can get your hands on (pro and con). At your age you have the potential to do some really great things for God in this world, and He will most certainly make good use of your service if you allow Him. Let me also add that He’s a great boss. Lotsa perks.

So blessings to you again on your upcoming Confirmation. It sounds as though God has already commenced in forming you into one of his warriors.

I haven’t had the time to look over much of this debate or the context but that was an extremely good post. I took note of what you said about the Trinity and of Jesus Christ and I couldn’t help but remember an article I read in “Love One Another” magazine recently. They had an article about a professor who has reasoned out that the only possible God is a triune God. Idk if you get it or not, but if you’re interested in the one I’m speaking of, it’s the 20/2011 issue.

 

[dandingo]

I agree, itt23r’s last post ^^^ was extremely well written. I find it awesome that not only are his parents atheists, but he lives with them and probably has to defend his faith to them everyday. That is how a true apologist is formed.

I also agree that the more we are attacked, the more God is molding us. I have learned so much in the past few months on here because of atheists attacking the faith on other religions. At first, I was very disconcerted and even had a hard time sleeping, wondering what the next response was going to be and fretting over certain things that they would say. But little by little, I learned that there really is no good argument against God, Jesus or the Church. Thank the Lord for this forum and all of you.

 

[itt23r]

To Neildown

I took note of what you said about the Trinity and of Jesus Christ and I couldn’t help but remember an article I read in “Love One Another” magazine recently. They had an article about a professor who has reasoned out that the only possible God is a triune God. Idk if you get it or not, but if you’re interested in the one I’m speaking of, it’s the 20/2011 issue.

The article sounds interesting and if it’s available on the web I’ll take a look. Thanks. As for me and the Holy Trinity, right after I’d taken the leap of Faith I found the proof text I was looking for in finally grasping the magnitude of Jesus’ final argument to the Pharisees in chapter 10 of John’s Gospel. After reading it (with the lights on this time) I realized that Jesus was telling them (and us, through John) that He really is God. And I could find no other way of interpretting it. (Still can’t).

Anyone else find God through this particular Scripture (or others)? Just wondering.

 

[itt23r]

To Dandingo;

Thank you too for your extraordinary contribution to this conversation.

 

[dandingo]

I agree, itt23r’s last post ^^^ was extremely well written. I find it awesome that not only are his parents atheists, but he lives with them and probably has to defend his faith to them everyday. That is how a true apologist is formed.

I also agree that the more we are attacked, the more God is molding us. I have learned so much in the past few months on here because of atheists attacking the faith and religion. At first, I was very disconcerted and even had a hard time sleeping, wondering what the next response was going to be and fretting over certain things that they would say. But little by little, I learned that there really is no good argument against God, Jesus or the Church. Thank the Lord for this forum and all of you.