Irrefutable proof of the existence of God

[itt23r]

To Dandingo

He is stating that he has figured out that Jesus Christ is the one true Messiah and that The Catholic Church is the one true Church. .

Thanks for restating that too. That, as you so succinctly put it, is the only reason I am here. And though I may not enjoy it, I do not believe it is a cause for shame to be called a fool for trying to get that message out, no matter how unorthodox the method might appear. I actually think it kind of goes with the territory. My guage for preaching has always been, if you’re not making any enemies you’re probably not doing it right.

Peace friend. Sorry you had to experience some of that negativity though just for taking my side.

 

[empther]

To Dandingo

Thanks for restating that too. That, as you so succinctly put it, is the only reason I am here. And though I may not enjoy it, I do not believe it is a cause for shame to be called a fool for trying to get that message out, no matter how unorthodox the method might appear. I actually think it kind of goes with the territory. My guage for preaching has always been, if you’re not making any enemies you’re probably not doing it right.

Peace friend. Sorry you had to experience some of that negativity though just for taking my side.

The usual diversionay tactic.

itt23r wants to draw your attention away from the obvious impossibility of his claims for what the 23rds rule reveals:

http://gospelofcreation.com/reveal23rds.php

the exact age of the Universe.
the age of our solar system.

the rationale behind the creation of dinosaurs.
whether or not our hominid ancestors ever lived in water.

why the neanderthals disappeared.

And it also gives us its own versions of the periodic table and the grand unification theorem.

the true length of each Day of the 6 Days of Creation
what happened to the lost tribes of Israel.
what happened during Jesus’ hidden years

Along the way it also provides us (believe it or not) the exact dates of Jesus’ conception, birth, baptism, death, resurrection and ascension, John the Baptist’s conception birth, death and the onset of his ministry and Mother Mary’s conception, birth and dormition and the Holidays associated with all of them.

 

[itt23r]

To Empther

Finally some good legitimate arguments from you. (Not your last post but the one just before it). And since Dandingo hasn’t read the book I will field these questions for him.

If you change anything about what is believed about Jesus, such as what he was doing during the “hidden years”, or any details about other people in the Bible,
you change who they are,
because what they do reveals who they are./QUOTE]

Simply knowing someone better doesn’t change who they are. It changes who we are. Sure I can understand how there might be some initial fear that the 2/3rds Rule’s augmented vision of Christ might not be the same as the one found in the Gospels. And that is a very, very, good argument. Maybe the best I have heard so far. And to that all I can do at this time is offer my testimony that the Christ we all know from the Gospels is not altered in any way by observing that He operated on a time schedule. And to me it actually endears Him more because it provides some further explanations of Scriptures that I’d previously been confused by. i would also add that Christology is a very delicate matter with the Church and there is no way four or even one Priest would have given the book any accolades if there were any manipulations being done to alter our perception of Christ. I know I certainly wouldn’t have had anything to do with it if that is what it was saying. So from my studies the 2/3rds Rule augments what we already know of Christ, endears Him to us even more.but it does not alter nor contradict anything already stated of Him in the four Gospels and throughout the Bible.
empther;8709538:

And so, the Popes are silent about the “hidden years” and other such matters, but itt23r knows better than the Popes! /QUOTE]

The Popes are silent on the hidden years of Christ because they don’t know what may have happened. No one knows anything for sure. But we can all speculate on a few things that may have happened simply from what we know from Scripture - beofer and after. And this speculation is not new. Many Church fathers have offered opinions on this time and the 2/3rds Rule simply sides in favor of some of these specualtions. But even then you are free to accept or reject what it is saying. Or come up with your own solution given the evidence. All I can say of what the book discloses is that it is not heretical, nor does it stray from currently held beliefs.
empther;8709538:

What God wants us to know about Jesus and the other Biblical matters mentioned above
have already been revealed to us by God,
and God doesn’t need Saint iit23r’s help.

I will ignore the sarcasm and respond to this last point with a question. And it’s for everyone to give an answer to if they want. Why should God have given us the Jewish Holidays if we were to just forget the meaning of all of them but Passover and Pentecost once the Christian Era began?

 

[itt23r]

On that last question just posed to Empther, I will provide my own opinion tomorrow.

 

[empther]

itt23r blabbered:

Sure I can understand how there might be some initial fear that the 2/3rds Rule’s augmented vision of Christ might not be the same as the one found in the Gospels. And that is a very, very, good argument.

It should be enough to stop any wise Catholic from persuing your junk.

Maybe the best I have heard so far.

Thanks, itt23r.
I am being inspired by God.
Wait 'til you read my book! You can’t buy it yet. Even I can’t buy it. Haven’t found a publisher.

And to that all I can do at this time is offer my testimony that the Christ we all know from the Gospels is not altered in any way by observing that He operated on a time schedule.

I see.
Your claim on your website is:

what happened during Jesus’ hidden years

… which of course you need to sell the book to the naive, knowing that my next remark about it will be soon buried and forgotten on this thread,
… ( the next remark ) but here you try to change the idea to deflect my objections to your outrageous claims by introducing the word timetable which sounds harmless.

You’re a clever rhetoritician, itt23r, but you’re a charlatan and full of lies.

 

[itt23r]

to empther

Since you prefer to fall back on uninformed arguments rather than having a civil discussion there is nothing I can say to you. Your irational behavior makes my case far better than anything I might say.

 

[Abba]

You’re a clever rhetoritician

I agree with you. :yup:

It is as though the play has been written and the stage is set up and we are the puppets playing pre-planned roles.
+++

itt23r, you are getting exactly what you wanted. Of course, you may have overlooked that Rudolf Steiner called his presentation 'The Fifth Gospel" exactly because one of his objectives was to distance himself from the Catholic Church. He states in the five lecture series that there have been rumors that he may be connected/corresponding/influenced whatever, by some Catholics. This was not good at all for him, hence the title of his speeches. What do you expect? You want to play with people to call attention to your book. It is very unpleasant.

Einstein came up with a nice theory too and he did not believe in a personal God. Period. He did not try to dress his theory up and present it in such a way as to prove that God is not personal etc… If you have something really valid it will stand on it’s own. People will not have to adopt you as the Translator of the Word or demigod. Btw, how is it that you can ‘fix it’ and make ‘adjustments’ to get a Nihil Obstat?

+++

My forty days internet retreat will be starting in a few minutes. It is a tradition I have started for myself. It is really good. I recommend it. I want to let each and everyone of you know that you are all in my humble prayers.

Peace,

Abba

 

[itt23r]

To Abba

You’ve said nothing of the response I gave to your last post. I’m guessing then we are good on those.

With regard to your first argument on this latest post, if i am succeeding here in winning some people over, it is not rhetoric that is allowing it. It is the truth. Without it I would have been eaten alive on this thread a long time ago. And without it I never would have had the courage to come here to begin with.

With regard to your second argument on this latest post, you keep repeating something here that simply is not true. Nowhere do I call my book or anytning else I have written a gospel. What I have written is about a gospel also known as the created work of God. I agree with you that it would be exxremely presumptuous, arrogant and irreverent, to call my work a gospel and I do not now nor would I ever refer to my writing as a gospel.

And to your last argument

If you have something really valid it will stand on it’s own. People will not have to adopt you as the Translator of the Word or demigod.

I agree. And the 2/3rds Rule does stand on its own without any help from me. But that doesn’t get people to look at it objectively. The sad truth is sometimes, when you know something really good that people are going to want to know, you have to allow yourself to be perceived a fool by them, ridiculed, scorned, called a blasphener, even crucified before you can get them to pay attention.

 

[jochoa]

Sharing other critiques of the introduction to the rule:

I shared the introduction with my mother. She is a very faithful woman. She does not require any more proof to know Jesus Christ and Catholicism is the Fullness of Truth. Her response to the rule was very supportive and interested. She read more of the book than me and shared understandings which enlightened me. She found the alignment of the national calendars more interesting than the alignment of the history of the creation of the world.

I also shared the intro with an uncle of mine. He has yet to accept Catholicism as the Fullness of Truth, but is currently studying, researching, and evaluating many of the practices of the Faith. He is more of a historian. Prior to sharing the alignment of the rule with creation with him, he was already aware that a Greek interpretation of day could mean period, and therefore he had no reaction other than to agree that the alignment is valid.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Does anybody around here have the ability to think?
Doesn’t look like it.

You do realize this includes you, right? And I would agree with the inclusion of you. And as a point of ferocious sarcasm (as you have directed to your own brothers and sisters), you are the only one to which your statement applies. I will let you think about why that is true. If you need some help, I would be glad to, but it’s a nice little pop quiz for you.

My point is to stop making specious claims, useless assertions and fallacious statements. Overall, you have had about 10% of your posts as having reasonable objections. The other 90% have been based on presuppositions that require being backed up by claims in the book, which you haven’t read, aren’t reading and probably will never read based on the idea that it is wrong (which it may be or may not be). But as Dandingo rightly pointed out (and you still couldn’t see what he was pointing to), even if something is wrong, that shouldn’t make you not read it. The fact that one may read this, or the Bible, or the God Delusion, or St. Theresa’s Life, or God Is NOT Great, or The Everlasting Man, or The Moral Landscape, etc… doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with it.

Anyway, I hope you understand what I’m saying here. I doubt you will have any rational response, though. Prove my doubts wrong.

And before you criticize my relationship with itt23r, it would behoove you to actually read my posts to him and see that I have more doubt than you about this. I will eventually read it, though, but on my own time and not his.

I do have a question:

Why are you vehemently criticizng your own brothers and sisters by saying that anyone who is interested or in the least bit curious is an idiot?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Some people are so gullible, they’ll believe absolutely anything if the guru keeps repeating it.
:hey_bud: :hey_bud: :banghead::hey_bud: :hey_bud:

I imagine your statement is directed to those on this thread. Care to name some names empther? That is, who has believed itt23r’s statement by him merely repeating it?

The only one on this thread who has accepted some (if not all) of the claims of the book is jochoa. And from what I understand, he actually READ the book (or at least part of it). So, he is exempt from your statement. And everybody else participating in the discussion is still skeptical or indifferent.

So, I ask again. Who believes itt23r based on him repeating it? (And he is hardly a guru.)

 

[empther]

According to legend it took Mohammed forty years to win his first convert.
Itt23r has beaten that record by light years. He already has two people defending him: his brother-in-law dandingo, and his truck driving partner GreggAlvarez.

Sadly, my dear brother in Christ jochoa is in danger of falling in this camp, having purchased the “2/3rd rule” booklet and passed it around to the family. Pray for him, folks.

Dandingo and GreggAlvarez, of course, taking itt23r’s lead, avoid calling your attention to the obviously impossible claims on itt23r’s thread, lest Catholics of sound mind run for the hills:

Itt23r’s claims to fame webpage is presented here in its entirety without editing, exactly as the charlatan wrote it………………………

http://gospelofcreation.com/reveal23rds.php
What does the 2/3rds Rule reveal?
Or maybe an easier question is what doesn’t it reveal?
Of the great mysteries of science it can tell us (among many other things) …

the exact age of the Universe.
the age of our solar system.
conjectures on when, where, and how life began.
the rationale behind the creation of dinosaurs.
whether or not our hominid ancestors ever lived in water.
when humans first began to talk and the motivational forces that made us smart.
why the neanderthals disappeared.
when the first humans came to North and South America.

And it also gives us its own versions of the periodic table and the grand unification theorem.

Of the great mysteries of the Old Testament it can tell us (among other things) …

the true length of each Day of the 6 Days of Creation.
when Adam and Eve and all the early patriarchs lived.
the time of the great Flood and the primary message of Noah’s Ark.
when the first draft of the Bible was put to print and when it was completed.
what happened to the lost tribes of Israel.
which OT books belong in the Bible
and which text of the Old Testament is superior to all the others.

And of the great mysteries of the New Testament it can tell us (among other things) …

beyond doubt that Jesus Christ really is the promised messiah (the Word made flesh).
whether He was always destined to come to us or whether it was our sin that brought Him.
whether there is one branch of Christianity that is superior to all the others.
what happened during Jesus’ hidden years
and why did He have to die for our sins.

Along the way it also provides us (believe it or not) the exact dates of Jesus’ conception, birth, baptism, death, resurrection and ascension, John the Baptist’s conception birth, death and the onset of his ministry and Mother Mary’s conception, birth and dormition and the Holidays associated with all of them.

But it doesn’t stop there. The 2/3rds Rule also has an enormous amount to tell us in the area of moral theology by giving us God’s perspective on pretty much every controversial subject debated today, such as …

abortion,
American exceptionalism,
contraception,
cloning,
embryonic stem cell research,
capital punishment,
gay marriage,
environmentalism,
and hedonism,
just to name a few.

And if this was not enough for a finale it also takes on the great eschatological questions …

Are we living in the end times?
and is Jesus’ return imminent?

So it is really not an overstatement to say that the 2/3rds Rule really delivers. And the answers it provides for most of these questions are definitive, leaving little room for further debate. The potential then for world wide evangelization is obvious. And all that remains is getting the word out.

 

[itt23r]

To Gregg Alvarez

The fact that one may read this, or the Bible, or the God Delusion, or St. Theresa’s Life, or God Is NOT Great, or The Everlasting Man, or The Moral Landscape, etc… doesn’t necessarily mean they agree with it.

Excellent point Gregg. Do you have any other questions for me? We covered a lot last time. If not I have one for you. I originally posed it in a response to Empther (#201) that she didn’t respond to. In fact I hardly ever see her responding directly to anybody’s questions, but that is beside the point.

The question is actually for anyone who is reading this thread. here it is again:

Why should God have given us the Jewish Holidays if we were to just forget the meaning of all of them but Passover and Pentecost once the Christian Era began?

If no one wants to take this further with their own opinions I’ll just give my opinion on it tonight. If however this question piques some interest amongst you all I’ll wait until everyone seems to have gotten in.

 

[itt23r]

And I think this post deserves repeating

Sharing other critiques of the introduction to the rule:

I shared the introduction with my mother. She is a very faithful woman. She does not require any more proof to know Jesus Christ and Catholicism is the Fullness of Truth. Her response to the rule was very supportive and interested. She read more of the book than me and shared understandings which enlightened me. She found the alignment of the national calendars more interesting than the alignment of the history of the creation of the world.

I also shared the intro with an uncle of mine. He has yet to accept Catholicism as the Fullness of Truth, but is currently studying, researching, and evaluating many of the practices of the Faith. He is more of a historian. Prior to sharing the alignment of the rule with creation with him, he was already aware that a Greek interpretation of day could mean period, and therefore he had no reaction other than to agree that the alignment is valid.

 

[empther]

Perfect Master itt23r wrote:

The question is actually for anyone who is reading this thread. here it is again:

Why should God have given us the Jewish Holidays if we were to just forget the meaning of all of them but Passover and Pentecost once the Christian Era began?

God didn’t give us the Jewish Holidays. The Jews did.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China, anyways?

Drawing people’s attention away from your obviously impossible claims webpage, oh Perfect Master?

I quote my own everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-human-dynamics novel:

“A woman who puts her trust in a higher power will be unchanged.”

I’ll stick with the Bible and the Church, thank you, oh Perfect Master.

 

[itt23r]

To Empther

God didn’t give us the Jewish Holidays. The Jews did.

I respectfully disagree. They were merely called Hebrews (or Israelites) at the time but the Pentateuch (in Chapter 23 of Leviticus and other places) specifically tells us God gave many of their observances to us through Moses. And many of the later observances are often mentioned by the prophets (Zechariah 8:18, for instance) which tells us God’s acknowledges and honors them too.

 

[empther]

Originally Posted by empther

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
God didn’t give us the Jewish Holidays. The Jews did.
I respectfully disagree. They were merely called Hebrews (or Israelites) at the time but the Pentateuch (in Chapter 23 of Leviticus and other places) specifically tells us God gave many of their observances to us through Moses. And many of the later observances are often mentioned by the prophets (Zechariah 8:18, for instance) which tells us God’s acknowledges and honors them too.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” – Matthew 5:17

Isn’t the Catholic Church doing things correctly, itt23r? What are you saying?

Oh yeah.
You’re trying to draw people’s attention away from your obviously impossible claims on your website.

 

[itt23r]

To Empther

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” – Matthew 5:17

Isn’t the Catholic Church doing things correctly, itt23r? What are you saying?

Exactly. That is a great scriptural citation, Empther and it is very pertinent to the question being raised. How is it that the Catholic Church has allowed us to seemingly forget the traditions of the Old Testament without any understanding of how Jesus fulfilled them? I mean we know how Jesus’ death on Calvary made sense of the Holiday of Passover and we also know how when the apostles were baptised by the Holy Spirit it gave us a new dimension of understanding on the Holiday of Pentecost. But what about all the other Holidays? Are we to see them all fulfilled at the Second Coming? If so why has the Church allowed us to forget them and completely miss the full meaning of some of the events of the Second Coming. And if Jesus actually did fulfill all of the Hoidays when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago, how is it nobody reported it? Did the Holy Spirit mess up in not inspiring the Gospel writers to tell us about it? This is a piuzzle is it not? And I’d like to hear your answer for it

 

[empther]

To Empther

Quote:

Originally Posted by empther

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” – Matthew 5:17

Isn’t the Catholic Church doing things correctly, itt23r? What are you saying?

Exactly. That is a great scriptural citation, Empther and it is very pertinent to the question being raised. How is it that the Catholic Church has allowed us to seemingly forget the traditions of the Old Testament without any understanding of how Jesus fulfilled them? I mean we know how Jesus’ death on Calvary made sense of the Holiday of Passover and we also know how when the apostles were baptised by the Holy Spirit it gave us a new dimension of understanding on the Holiday of Pentecost. But what about all the other Holidays? Are we to see them all fulfilled at the Second Coming? If so why has the Church allowed us to forget them and completely miss the full meaning of some of the events of the Second Coming. And if Jesus actually did fulfill all of the Hoidays when He walked the earth 2,000 years ago, how is it nobody reported it? Did the Holy Spirit mess up in not inspiring the Gospel writers to tell us about it? This is a piuzzle is it not? And I’d like to hear your answer for it

Here’s my answer:

You are very confused and I feel sorry for you. :imsorry: :bighanky::sad_bye:

 

[GreggAlvarez]

According to legend it took Mohammed forty years to win his first convert.
Itt23r has beaten that record by light years. He already has two people defending him: his brother-in-law dandingo, and his truck driving partner GreggAlvarez.

You have some substantiating to do here, as well as some thinking in general.

1. Light-years is a measure of distance through space, not time.
2. What converts does itt23r have? How ami among the converts? Because I’m interested in reading books… Gotcha.
3. There is a major difference between defending a person and defending the claims of the person.
4. Where is your justification that I drive trucks? I drive a car, actually.
5. Is dandingo really itt23r’s brother-in-law or are you just as much a liar as you assert itt is?

Do you have anything rational to offer? Or are you just going to claim that everybody besides you is a heretic? How about this? Pick up a book on being logical.

Sadly, my dear brother in Christ jochoa is in danger of falling in this camp, having purchased the “2/3rd rule” booklet and passed it around to the family. Pray for him, folks.

That’s not a sincere plea to ask everybody to pray for him.

If I ever went back to being an Atheist or agnostic, it would be because of the absurdity of people who call themselves Christian, but act unloving towards anybody.

I mean, come on dude (or dudette). We are curious to read a book. This is interest. By no means do we agree with the contents.

Dandingo and GreggAlvarez, of course, taking itt23r’s lead, avoid calling your attention to the obviously impossible claims on itt23r’s thread, lest Catholics of sound mind run for the hills

Well, it is pretty clear you are not a Catholic of sound mind. And it is certain that you are not even acting like a Catholic. I am a Catholic of sound mind that’s interested in all sides of the God Debate.

So, you tell me. Who would a person rather trust in this scenario: someone genuinely interested and asking general question OR someone who lashes out at his so-called brothers sisters based on their sincere interest? Yes, they would trust people like me over people like you.

Go read your posts and ask for some forgiveness from the people on this thread that you have heartlessly insulted because of their interest. It is people like you that give us a bad name.

You can complain all you wish and send out insults of various kinds, but everybody reading this thread knows that YOU are the flesh-eating virus that just doesn’t go away. “Oh, look at me! I can be unreasonable and talk trash even though I am terrible at it and can’t seem to at least be coherent or cogent in my lashings!” Yeah, I don’t care what you think of me, dandingo, itt23r, or other various Catholics that are genuinely interested in read any books, especially seemingly heretical books.

Have you read non-Catholic or even anti-Catholic books? What’s that? Yes? You are just as much an ignoramus as you claim other people (other than yourself, of course) are.

I will remain skeptic of itt23r’s claims until his own works prove my doubts wrong (IF they do). But until then, let the big boys handle anything that requires reason, rationality, or logic, which is… EVERYTHING (in this discussion)!

I’m just as much a skeptic as ABBA and have been discussing just like him/her, so why do you attack me? Oh, is it because ABBA responded one or two times agreeing with you? But at least, ABBA has been bringing good questions and/or arguments. You can’t even do that much.

So, I suggest you get off your high horse and come to the world of sanity.

Mmmkay, pumpkin?

If this gets me a warning or even suspended/banned, then so be it. You need to see how much nobody really gives a **** about your illogic and irrationale and unreasoning.