Irregular Liturgy, possible abuses?

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If it’s not a liturgical abuse for an openly homosexual to provide the music for mass on Christmas and on a weekly basis, perhaps it should be. It certainly is scandalous. Is there any more anti-church militant than the homosexual lobby? I wonder how people would feel if an abortionist who had performed thousands of abortions were leading the mass in song? The fact of the matter is that the presense of these young men in the church, before the eyes of people who know of their homosexuality, is a scandal and it is a blasphemy! It is an insult to God. People cannot simply allow people to stand and insult the Lord. Homosexuality is not simply another lifestyle separate but equal. It is a lifestyle that is wrong. These people by their presense and the priest who stands silently, unwilling to rebuke, is saying that God is wrong and that they know better than God. What I witnessed Christmas morning was not a mass. It was a tragic comedy. I am good with my conscience that I did not attend it. As I see it, I had two choices, walk out, or verbally disrupt the mass to rebuke the priest right there and then. I chose the more discretionary.
 
woodland_poet said:
An openly homosexual person is singing the words of the Liturgy in the course of a Catholic Mass. This is not abuse? Omitting parts of the Mass itself? This is not abuse?
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Imho it is not for any lay man to judge about the sexual orientation of anyone.

However omitting parts of the mass, or adding parts or words is serious abuse.

My advise: look for a Church where the Mass is reverent worship of our Lord, and go there. Being scandalized leads to nowhere, we shall define ourselves by our values, not by the deficiencies of others.
 
woodland_poet said:
If it’s not a liturgical abuse for an openly homosexual to provide the music for mass on Christmas and on a weekly basis, perhaps it should be. It certainly is scandalous.
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It is certainly more proper to have Catholics of fine moral character in liturgical positions, and I would agree with you about the scandal-factor, but that does not make it liturgical abuse.

Perhaps we should require every liturgical minister to go to Confession immediately prior to Mass? 😉
woodland_poet said:
What I witnessed Christmas morning was not a mass. … As I see it, I had two choices, walk out, or verbally disrupt the mass to rebuke the priest right there and then. I chose the more discretionary.
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Actually, despite the sinners present (among whose number I count you, of course), it was a Mass. I certainly hope you did attend a Christmas Mass; otherwise, you have something serious to confess.
 
What amount of evil content would then enter the mass before it ceased to be a mass?
 
woodland_poet said:
What amount of evil content would then enter the mass before it ceased to be a mass?
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For a Mass to be valid, the following must be present:
  1. valid matter (pure wheat bread and pure grape wine)
  2. a valid minister (a validly ordained priest or bishop)
  3. the valid form (the words of consecration – “this is my body” and “this is … my blood”)
  4. valid intent (the priest must intend to do what the Church does, in consecrating the bread and wine)
A priest in mortal sin does not make the Mass invalid. A Mass where the Eucharist is treated irreverently does not make the Mass invalid. The priest ad-libbing everything except the words of consecration does not make the Mass invalid. The priest wishing women could be ordained as priests does not make the Mass invalid.

Isn’t God good? Look at the extent to which He goes to ensure that, despite our sinfulness, a pure offering can be made to the glory of His name, and we can then be fed with the Bread of Angels?
 
laszlo said:
Imho it is not for any lay man to judge about the sexual orientation of anyone.

However omitting parts of the mass, or adding parts or words is serious abuse.

My advise: look for a Church where the Mass is reverent worship of our Lord, and go there. Being scandalized leads to nowhere, we shall define ourselves by our values, not by the deficiencies of others.
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We can not judge the state of the soul, but we can and MUST judge behavior, and provide fraternal correction.

God help us all.
 
laszlo said:
Imho it is not for any lay man to judge about the sexual orientation of anyone.
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Isn’t that partly how we got into this mess in the first place? You don’t really think judging is bad, do you? What iyho is the judgment of a layman good for?
 
What this thread is doing in this particular forum (other than taking up space) is beyond me. It belongs in Moral Theology or Social Justice or, better still, the Back Fence. It certainly doesn’t belong here.
 
japhy said:
For a Mass to be valid, the following must be present:
  1. valid matter (pure wheat bread and pure grape wine)
  2. a valid minister (a validly ordained priest or bishop)
  3. the valid form (the words of consecration – “this is my body” and “this is … my blood”)
  4. valid intent (the priest must intend to do what the Church does, in consecrating the bread and wine)
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These things make the sacrament of the Eucharist valid, not the liturgy of the Mass.
 
originally posted by japhy
The priest wishing women could be ordained as priests does not make the Mass invalid.
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Yes, I am aware of that though I did not mean to suggest that it would make the Mass invalid.
HOWEVER, it’s extremely disturbing to me and, I hope, others.
This liberal think is seeping around the edges of our Holy Church and must not be tolerated.
I’m going to another church next week though it is much further away. I have been there before and know it is a conservative parish with none of these shenanigans!
 
Doesn’t what effects the mass and the liturgy belong in the liturgy forum? Maybe people disagree with the concerns I have brought forward, but I think it uncharitable to suggest that the discussion doesn’t belong. Gay marriage and civial unions are popping up all over the country, it’s hardly conscionable or even reasonable to think that these issues are not going to effect the mass or how we worship God. Should we wait until the pastor gives his blessing for “Bill and Bob” on their 25th “anniversary”? Time to draw the line in the sand.
 
malphono said:
What this thread is doing in this particular forum (other than taking up space) is beyond me. It belongs in Moral Theology or Social Justice or, better still, the Back Fence. It certainly doesn’t belong here.
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yes, in the section where we have perfect knowledge of the condition of the soul of our fellow parishioners and are therefore endowed by God with authority to judge them
 
woodland_poet said:
What amount of evil content would then enter the mass before it ceased to be a mass?
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How much evil content until it becomes a sacrilege, and then, how long until we leave to avoid condoning (by attending we condone) the sacrilege.
 
The process which exists is to systematically ignore one seemingly minor abuse after another, until the collective weight of them all is beyond the normal means to address by anyone person. People no longer hear the water for the waterfall. They no longer see the forest, for all the trees. On one site that described 16 illicit abuses which occur in the liturgy, I have personally witnessed 7, perhaps even 8 of them. At the time, I was not even looking. It was a deepening faith that led me to learn of these things through study of the forms of the mass, what is proper, and what is accepted. Subsequent modest investigation led me to discover other offenses which I was neither looking for or even aware of. Increased knowledge brings with it certain obvious empirical revelations which are difficult or impossible to ignore. To ignore them brings a great weight upon the conscience. We cannot be as people who ignore abortion, or contraception, and think that these things are simply greater than ourselves or problems that are too great to solve.
 
Just a few suggestions with these troubling things in our parishes; Over a year ago I begged St. John Vianney (patron of priests) and the patron saint of my parish to intercede in prayer with me for our problems. This summer things took a turn for the better. Unforseen things happened which surprised me greatly and changed many things for the parish.One year later you wouldn’t recognize the parish. Fervent prayer is a very good place to start. I started with novenas and then composed my own daily prayer asking intercession from the two saints. I tried to be very careful in what I asked and stay in my boundaries. God saw fit to answer my prayer.
 
jeanannemarie said:
Just a few suggestions with these troubling things in our parishes…
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Another suggestion–probably not open to a lot of people in large parishes, but still worth investigating–get on your parish Pastoral Council.
 
I think that those who are upset by the abuses going on in their parishes should simply bypass their local Bishop’s office and write directly to the Vatican. The Bishops in the US are not representative of the Bishops throughout the world. I have contacted the Bishop’s office in my diocese about really egregis abuses, as well as writing to local Pastors referring them to the Pope’s specific prohibitions regarding whatever it was they were doing. The responses were either non-existant or amazing. I don’t think that anything will change unless the Vatican begins to receive lots of mail informing them about what is going on in the US. The Bishops and priests certainly are not going to inform them.

Another suggestion. I don’t understand why people continue to attend mass at a church where the liturgy regularly offends, distracts, or upsets them. You DO NOT have to be a Parishoner at the nearest Church. If the Liturgy at your local Parish is not what it should be, shop around until you find one that is. One of the best ways to stop abuse is to vote with your feet. If the collections diminish, the abuse will stop. To all of the Priests who believe they must pander to the “Youth Ministry with Youth Masses” which are blantantly offensive to God and those with normal sensibilities, how many “youths” are contibuting significantly to the support of your Church.

I believe the abuses are being perpetrated and supported by a very slim minority of the Parish who place themselves in positions of power and cram their innovations down the majority’s throats.

If you don’t like it, find a more traditional parish.

Better still, find a parish in the inner city that has a Latin Mass every Sunday. They are always in the inner city because those in power really don’t want them to catch on.

But, they do **exist and there are no abuses there. **
 
Not in my church, at any rate. In fact, a convicted murderer is permanently barred from the priesthood for life, and adulterers are not allowed to distribute communion. What are the policies in your church?
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How do you know?? How do you have any idea as to the sins committed or not committed of the EM? Unless that person has confessed these sins to the Priest, he has no way of knowing if they are adulterers, child abuses, porn watchers, masturbaters, theives, animal abusers…how can you honestly say they are not allowed to be EMs…when no one - other then God himself truly knows the sins of this person?

As to the homosexual gentleman - why not be a true christian and welcome them. Help them to come to know the Lord. You say they are not “Catholic” - one of our missions as Catholics is to evangalize. Reach out to these men. Offer to sponsor them in RCIA if they are interested. Instead of judging them - as the Lord is the only one with any right to Judge - pray for them, welcome them, befriend them and above all else, share your faith with them
 
The gay organist.

Perhaps the problem here is one of scandal, not of liturgical abuse.
If the organist is an openly practising homosexual, then the situation might well be one of scandal as it may seem that his way of living has been approved by the Church.
If this is the case it would be better to sacrifice the music for a more wholesome atmosphere which does not confuse or perplex people.

P Safera
 
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