Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[tevans9129]

I assume you believe in the trinity? Where’s the Biblical chapter:vs that uses the word “trinity?”

Yes, and it does not. However, there are a number of verses that, IMO, strongly imply the trinity concept.

It doesn’t exist. However it’s a pretty common belief that one must believe in the trinity to by a Christian.

I most definitely believe in the Trinity, therefore I must be a Christian, eh? BTW, where does scripture say, or imply, that you must hold that belief to be a “Christian”?

The Bible is the Word of God, but it is through her church (the Catholic Church) that we learn how to interpret the Bible.

Where does the Bible say that?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit and God’s written word is not sufficient for a person’s understanding, that one must depend on the opinions of men, which changes, depending upon who is in charge, in order for us to know God? Can the wisdom and knowledge of others be beneficial in our education, I certainly think so, is it mandatory, I think not.

We also have Tradition to fill in the gaps that 1st century Christians hadn’t yet figured out (granted the Holy Spirit could have revealed more if He had wanted too but He didn’t).

If you wish to rely upon “tradition”, that is certainly your right to do so. Can you direct me to any scripture where the Bible says that we are to use “tradition” to fill in the gaps? If God is omnipotent, why do you suppose that He would leave “gaps” in His word?

If it is through faith in the Bible alone that gets one to heaven was heaven closed to people till 393 AD or so?

Who says that it is “faith in the Bible” alone that gets one to heaven? I know no one that has faith that the Bible gets them to heaven. I have faith that God will do just as He says He will do, in His word, that He gave for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; therefore, my faith is in passages such as Romans 10:9-17 that gets me to heaven.

As to your question, no it was not.

How did one find out about Christ before then…ah yes, through God’s Church, the Catholic Church. Or perhaps we should wait till the protestants “corrected” the compilation in the 1600’s? So nobody could use God’s word to be saved till the Bible was turned into the current protestant form???

I can be sarcastic also, what does it accomplish?

I just really don’t understand how anyone can rely on scripture to disprove the Catholic Church when it was the Catholic church who compiled the scriptures into one book, before then there were a lot more books that were popularly thought of to be the inspired word of God and some of the books in the current cannon were thought by many not to be the inspired word of God. It was the Catholic church under the influence of the Holy Spirit who created the book we now call the Bible. How did the Catholic church get something so incredibly important right and then get everything else wrong???

Are you saying that compiling and formatting the writings into a book is more important than those that provided the writings to begin with and perhaps, even supersedes those writings? Did the CC also compile the Septuagint, did it write the textus receptus? How about if we use those instead of the Bible, after all, Jesus seems to have quoted from the Septuagint often.

May I ask, who and when was the first to use the word “Catholic”? How were believers in Christ referred to prior that, was it Christians?

Who said that the CC got “everything else wrong”? There are many issues that I totally agree with the Catholics, some I do not. One being the subject of this thread and so far, I have not seen one person that has used scripture proving that one must be a member of the CC in order to be saved. And I do not mind if you and every living creature on this planet believe that, I happen not to believe that the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life will condemn a person to hell because that person was not a member of the CC. Pity those poor souls before anyone ever heard of the CC and the Bible that it “compiled”.

Bear

 

[PRmerger]

Are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit and God’s written word is not sufficient for a person’s understanding, that one must depend on the opinions of men, which changes, depending upon who is in charge, in order for us to know God? Can the wisdom and knowledge of others be beneficial in our education, I certainly think so, is it mandatory, I think not.

tevans, could you please not nest your responses? Please see this thread in order to learn how to post so that others can respond to your comments conveniently.

Do you realize, tevans, that each and every time you quote Scripture that you are depending “on the opinions of men”, for you would not know what is Scripture were it not for some men, centuries ago, who discerned for you exactly what was theopneustos, and what was not?

Thus, the only way you know that 2 Tim 3:15 is inspired and that the Shepherd of Hermes is not is because some men–some *Catholic *men–discerned this for you?

 

[tevans9129]

Yes, Jesus insists that you belong to a fully accredited church, and have all of your supporting paperwork in order. Makes sense, doesn’t it? That’s why Jesus built big churches all over Palestine, collected revenues, kept copious notes and records on membership, and spent most of His time on rituals. Of course this was necessary, because who could follow a guy who roamed the countryside without any august trappings, formal structures and proper hierarchies in place. Such a person might be crucified. Beter sign up for one today. The bigger the better.

Your friend
Sufjon

At least some of us have a sense of humor.

Bear 25

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Sufjon assumes that the tree in its fulness must look like the acorn.

Jesus formed a Church. And Jesus knew full well that this Church would be hierarchical and institutional. Paul even notes the hierarchical structure of the orders of the Church in his letter to the Corithians(1 Cor 12:28).

So I will repeat:
Chrst instituted a Church.

This Church has four marks:
The Church is One ( Acts 4:32; 1 Cor 1:10; Phil 2:2 )

The Church is Holy(Rom 11:16; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Cor 6:19; Eph 5:27; Col 1:22; Tit 1:8; 1 Pet 2:9 )

The Church is Universal(Catholic) (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 4:17; 1 Cor 7:17; 1 Cor 12:28 )

The Church is Apostolic: (Acts 2:42).

The authority of the Apostles is the authority of Christ Himself. And they passed this authority to those whom they discipled.(Luke 10:16; 1 Thes 2:13; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 John 4:6).

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

& John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

Jesus gives His authority to men. Men that He chose, but men nontheless.

The Church has the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22; John 14:26; John 16:13; Acts 15:28 ), not just any believer(Rom 8:9).

The Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth(1 Tim 3:15).

The Church is the Body of Christ(1 Cor 12:27).

Christ gave these men-the Apostles-the authority to forgive sins in His name(Matt 9:8; John 20:23).

He gave them the authority to expel those who persist in disobedience(Matt 18:16-19; 1 Cor 5:4-5).

This authority was passed on from the apostles to other approved men(2 Tim 2:2; Titus 1:5).

Those who are God’s people listen to those men whom God has appointed(1 John 4:6).

This Church is headed by Peter whom Christ identified with Himself(Matt 16:17-19; Acts 15:7).

One of these men who was ordained bishop by both Peter and John was Ignatius of Antioch.

What did one who sat at the feet of John the evangelist have to say about the Church and those who are outside of it? These are letter that Ignatius wrote to the churches while he was on his way to Rome for his execution in 107 ad.

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].”(Letter to the Philadelphians, chpt 3)

&
“I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.”(Letter to the Magnesians, chpt 6)

&
“In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.”(Letter to the Trallians, chpt 3)

& lastly…
“Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles. He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience.”(Letter to the Trallians, chpt 7).

Salvation comes from the Head-Jesus-through His Body-the Church.

God is glorified in the fullest in His Church.

 

[Fragile]

“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.”

I can no longer accept Church teaching on this verse, as well as several others, it should be painfully obvious that there are non-Catholic christians who have the life of Christ in them…unless you are wilfully blind.

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon assumes that the tree in its fulness must look like the acorn.

Jesus formed a Church. And Jesus knew full well that this Church would be hierarchical and institutional. Paul even notes the hierarchical structure of the orders of the Church in his letter to the Corithians(1 Cor 12:28).

So I will repeat:
Chrst instituted a Church.

This Church has four marks:
The Church is One ( Acts 4:32; 1 Cor 1:10; Phil 2:2 )

The Church is Holy(Rom 11:16; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Cor 6:19; Eph 5:27; Col 1:22; Tit 1:8; 1 Pet 2:9 )

The Church is Universal(Catholic) (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 4:17; 1 Cor 7:17; 1 Cor 12:28 )

The Church is Apostolic: (Acts 2:42).

The authority of the Apostles is the authority of Christ Himself. And they passed this authority to those whom they discipled.(Luke 10:16; 1 Thes 2:13; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 John 4:6).

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

& John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

Jesus gives His authority to men. Men that He chose, but men nontheless.

The Church has the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22; John 14:26; John 16:13; Acts 15:28 ), not just any believer(Rom 8:9).

The Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth(1 Tim 3:15).

The Church is the Body of Christ(1 Cor 12:27).

Christ gave these men-the Apostles-the authority to forgive sins in His name(Matt 9:8; John 20:23).

He gave them the authority to expel those who persist in disobedience(Matt 18:16-19; 1 Cor 5:4-5).

This authority was passed on from the apostles to other approved men(2 Tim 2:2; Titus 1:5).

Those who are God’s people listen to those men whom God has appointed(1 John 4:6).

This Church is headed by Peter whom Christ identified with Himself(Matt 16:17-19; Acts 15:7).

One of these men who was ordained bishop by both Peter and John was Ignatius of Antioch.

What did one who sat at the feet of John the evangelist have to say about the Church and those who are outside of it? These are letter that Ignatius wrote to the churches while he was on his way to Rome for his execution in 107 ad.

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].”(Letter to the Philadelphians, chpt 3)

&
“I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.”(Letter to the Magnesians, chpt 6)

&
“In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.”(Letter to the Trallians, chpt 3)

& lastly…
“Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles. He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience.”(Letter to the Trallians, chpt 7).

Salvation comes from the Head-Jesus-through His Body-the Church.

God is glorified in the fullest in His Church.

Paul, Paul, Paul and more Paul. Sounds like **Paul **started a church. He was very smart. I wonder if he ever really changed his original goal or did he change or did his methods? I have always had a question about him, so maybe you can help me. Who else saw him get knocked off his horse out on that road to Damascus, and who else saw him talk to Jesus? Did they leave any written account?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Fragile]

Well, he planted a bunch of them!

 

[PRmerger]

“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.”

So what is your interpretation of the above verse, Fragile? What do you think Our Lord meant?

 

[Fragile]

How do you explain the obvious life of Christ in non-Catholic christians?, answer that first.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Your answer is NO you do not need a membership to belong to a c hurch

 

[PRmerger]

How do you explain the obvious life of Christ in non-Catholic christians?, answer that first.

They have received the life of Christ through Baptism.

 

[Fragile]

…but then you will go on to say that if they don’t partake of an “authentic eucharist”, they have no life in them…

I would say the one who has an authentic and living faith has the life of the Son in them.

 

[PRmerger]

…but then you will go on to say that if they don’t partake of an “authentic eucharist”, they have no life in them…

I would say the one who has an authentic and living faith has the life of the Son in them.

So how do you interpret Jesus’ words then that you have no life unless you eat his flesh? How do Protestants fulfill this command of Christ?

 

[Fragile]

I believe that all christians who hold to the ancient creeds are “catholic”, wich would make this forum a bit misleading.

“Hello pastor, I’m so glad we’re part of the same Church.” “What do you mean, I’m Baptist?” One faith, one Lord, one Baptism!" – Fr. Corapi :heaven:

We’ll have to pick this up later, now I must go hit the cold wet lawns of northest Ohio!

 

[Fragile]

So how do you interpret Jesus’ words then that you have no life unless you eat his flesh? How do Protestants fulfill this command of Christ?

By putting their faith/trust in Christ, they are nurished by his broken body and shed blood through faith. The eucharist is a remembrence of what was done for them.

 

[PRmerger]

By putting their faith/trust in Christ, they are nurished by his broken body and shed blood through faith. The eucharist is a remembrence of what was done for them.

And how do you eat his flesh and drink his blood and have life?

Does your pastor’s communion proclaim that it gives you life?

 

[campeador]

Paul, Paul, Paul and more Paul. Sounds like **Paul **started a church. He was very smart. I wonder if he ever really changed his original goal or did he change or did his methods? I have always had a question about him, so maybe you can help me. Who else saw him get knocked off his horse out on that road to Damascus, and who else saw him talk to Jesus? Did they leave any written account?

Your friend
Sufjon

Sounds like a conspiracy, but Paul denied it:

“Perhaps the rumour started because I haven’t been much in the press lately. I have done enough press for a lifetime, and I don’t have anything to say these days. I am happy to be with my family and I will work when I work. I was switched on for ten years and I never switched off. Now I am switching off whenever I can. I would rather be a little less famous these days.” —Paul McCartney

 

[PJM]

=tevans9129;7873726]Are you saying that compiling and formatting the writings into a book is more important than those that provided the writings to begin with and perhaps, even supersedes those writings? Did the CC also compile the Septuagint, did it write the textus receptus? How about if we use those instead of the Bible, after all, Jesus seems to have quoted from the Septuagint often.

May I ask, who and when was the first to use the word “Catholic”? How were believers in Christ referred to prior that, was it Christians?

Who said that the CC got “everything else wrong”? There are many issues that I totally agree with the Catholics, some I do not. One being the subject of this thread and so far, I have not seen one person that has used scripture proving that one must be a member of the CC in order to be saved. And I do not mind if you and every living creature on this planet believe that, I happen not to believe that the God who so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life will condemn a person to hell because that person was not a member of the CC. Pity those poor souls before anyone ever heard of the CC and the Bible that it “compiled”.

Bear

Hi Bear, a bit strong on the reaction their my friend

No the OT book JUST LIKE THE NT BOOK ARE INSPIRED BU GOD AND AUTHORED BY MEN CHOSEN BY GOD FOR THAT TASK.

That said; to try to make lite of the CC contribution to the bible seems to me a bit silly.

As THE ONLY Christian Faith for at least 1,000 years after Cgrist Death and Ressurection; the Cc assambled the Ot Books, AND AUTHORED THE ENTIRE NT 100%.

It is the CC that assembled the Bible; Codifed it and shares it with the WORLD today. And these my friend are HISTORICALLY proveable facts.

As for Scripture that say’s you have to be amember of the CC to be saved: READ these again;

Mt. 16:15-19 especially v. 19; John 20;19-23 with emphasis on 21: That Christ bestoyed on His Church the very Powers that God Himself has; v.22 Guided by the HS, v. 23 Power to Forgive with a MANDATE TO DO SO, sins THROUGH GOD. And then READ: John14:16-17 “FOREVER” and John 17:15-19 Where Jesus Gives Hiself LITERALLY as warranty of the truths of the CC.

Your fianl comment IGNORES the FACT that since the time of Christ Visitation we; all of us; are under a new CCovenant which voids the old ones. And yes my friend that too is Biblical.

Their is more Bear, if you REALLY are seeking the truth?

God Bless you my friend,
Pat

 

[mackbrislawn]

In my view, Jesus does not make mistakes, every other church body does. I believe the Bible is the word of the Lord and it is infallible, no church run by man is, which I think is the reason the Lord admonishes us in Acts 17:11,

“Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.”

Do you notice that it does not instruct us to run to this church or that church for verification but to the Scriptures? Churches make mistakes; the Lord does not, IMO.

Bear

Sigh…

Of course it doesn’t instruct the Bereans to run to various churches, is becaue there were no churches for them to run to! They didn’t exist yet! That is, the apostle Paul himself was the Church, as Jesus’ earthly representative. Jesus heads His Church in heaven, but uses earthly men as His foundation, his rock, on earth.

The word the Bereans received was Paul’s news about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that He is the Messiah. Paul used the Jewish scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, to show to them that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

Now, the Bereans didn’t carry scriptures around with them as we do today, so they had to go back to the synagogue to look throught the OT scriptures. First, to see if the passages Paul was talking about were actually there, and as he quoted them. Keep in mind there were no chapters and verses in those days, so they had to spend some time in coming to the parts Paul was talking about. Then they had to ponder and decide if Paul was applying them right, or simply twisting them. The Bereans decided he was applying them right, unlike many other Jews who did not accept Jesus as Messiah.

And so, the Bereans became a church themselves, a congregation of the universal Church headed by Jesus in heaven.

However, Gnostic churches came into being also, with beliefs which you and I would today consider pretty far out. We would not think of them as congregations of the church of Jesus. So, some churches can be under Jesus’ church, and others may not be. Paul was a man, did he make mistakes? How about the founders of the Gnostic churches?

Okay, church bodies can make mistakes. But, it was a church body that decided what was Christian scripture or not, and decided that it was inspired. Since church bodies can make mistakes, maybe they made a mistake and scripture isn’t inspired after all. Maybe they made mistakes in deciding what writings were true or not. So maybe what we call the Bible isn’t the word of the Lord and infallible after all. Who knows?

 

[mackbrislawn]

Notice that in Acts 17:11 the Bereans didn’t learn about Jesus and Christianity from Scripture. They learned the good news, the gospel, from the Church, not Scripture. They received the word from Jesus, through the Church, through Paul representing the Church.

Sometimes 17:11 is used to show that we should go to the Scriptures only, but in fact this passage demonstrates exactly the opposite. First, the Scriptures referred to were the Old Testament Jewish scriptures, as New Testament Christian scriptures didn’t exist yet. Second, the Bereans then had to rely on outside sources, sources outside of scripture, to learn about Jesus. They relied upon the Church as represented by the man, Paul.

Definitely not scripture alone.