Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[PJM]

=Fragile;7874644]How do you explain the obvious life of Christ in non-Catholic christians?, answer that first.

GREAT responce;

The answer is God does not think the way we do [Isaiah 55]. Curtainly there is the Spirit of God in the Protestant communions. However there is NOT God Himself; REALLY Christ, Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Nor is the Holy Spirit active in the same manner. In the Catholic Church it is the HS who makes Jesus Really Present through the hands of His priest in the Eucharist. It is the Holy Spirit that Forgives the sins that the priest confrms ought to be forgiven. It is the Holy Spirit acting through the “Last Rites” Sacrament that prepare a soul for immediate access to heaven; by passing Purgatory, when properly given and received.

No where in the ENTIRE BIBLE can one find even a small bit of evidence that God ever desired more than a single Faith [set of beliefs].

That God is present in the Protestant communions is a REMARKABLE sign of God’s Love an Mercy even to those who do not hear and Obey him.

Clearly God does a GREAT DEAL more; offers a GREAT MANY more Blessings to those who Do hear; Do Obey Him.

Thank you God!

Pat

 

[tevans9129]

Well the Catholic Church teaches that you need to belong to her to be saved

Part 1 or 2

It is noted that you stated, “the Catholic Church teaches”, however, where does the Bible teach that one must belong to the CC to be saved?

IMO, you believe the CC is the “church” spoken of in the NT, I disagree, according to the definition of “church” as stated in,

Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). Vol. 1: A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (26). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

church = 1577. ekklesia; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

How can one take the meaning of the Greek word “ekklesia” and limit it to the CC? Can you explain that please?

and you are trying to use a collection of books that were compiled by the Catholic Church to show that she is wrong.

“Compiled”, organized, yes, written by, no. That being said, if the CC is responsible for the Bible, why can my questions not be answered with the Bible, not with what the CC teaches?

If the Church is wrong about salvation (which I think we’d agree is the most important thing to be right about) then why would she be right when she put together the Bible?

In my view, there is a perfectly good explanation as to why she is wrong about the way to salvation which I will gladly discuss in a PM but not in this forum, for obvious reasons.

No where in the Bible does it say that the only way knowledge of God can be imparted to the faithful is through scriptures.

Of course, you are correct, just like there is no where in the Bible that says the teachings of the CC is always correct.

I am genuinely curious how you justify your distrust in the Catholic Church and yet you trust completely that she picked the right books to be considered the inspired word of God?

As I have previously stated, IMO, “picking the right books” does not equate to infallibility in their teachings. If she picked the “right books” why can she not answer questions, using those books, as opposed to having to rely on additional teachings of men, men that proven by history to not always be obedient to the scriptures as they were originally written?

Yes I totally agree that believing with your heart is different than just verbalizing something intellectually. But does the scripture actually say what EXACTLY we must confess? I’m not really convinced that it does.

Well, how about these verses, they seem as clear to me as one could ask?

Matthew 3:6 - confession of sins

Matthew 10:32 - confessing Jesus

Romans 10:9 - confessing that Jesus is Lord

Romans 10:10 confessing ones’ belief that Jesus is Lord

2 Corinthians 9:13 - confessing the Gospel of Christ

Philippians 2:11 - confessing Jesus Christ is Lord

1 John 1:9 - confessing our sins

1 John 2:23 - confessing the Son

1 John 4:2 - confessing that Jesus Christ came in the flesh

1 John 4:15 - confessing that Jesus is the Son of God.

I would say that confessing our sins, that Jesus is Lord, is the Son of God and confessing His gospel could be considered as pretty exact.

Bear

 

[PJM]

=Bill Pick;7874674]Your answer is NO you do not need a membership to belong to a c hurch

My dear friend, while partially correct; taken as presented One WILL quickly get the WRONG understanding of your comment.

Allow me please to give the REST of The Story.

Technically the staement is correct WITH serveral KEY Conditions, that in an absolute sense, would have to be FULLY met.

1. One MUST in an absolute sense believe in God and Christ as God

**John.14: 6 **"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

1. The NORM [meaning without VALID reason] for salvations requires in an absolute sense; Christian Baptism: With Water in the Name of the Blessed Trinity.

**John.3:5 **" Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” [Baptism is what Jesus Speaks of here].

1. Is the issue of sin and the forgiveness of sin. Cchurch or not; anyone who dies with Unconfessed, unrepented Mortal sin is going to Hell.

1John.1: 8 -10: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1John.5: 16 - 17"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

John.20: 20 - 23]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Heb.5:1- 6 “For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. Because of this he is bound to offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people. And one does not take the honor upon himself, but he is called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee”; as he says also in another place, “Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchiz’edek.”

**Matt.19: 17 **“And he [Jesus]said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

1. Forgivness of sin is POSSIBLE [but less likey and unknown] outside the CC with a PERFECT [God’s standard of perfection] act of Contrition and a FIRM purpose of amendment; meaing a convition to with God;'s help, avoind the sins in the future.
2. The odds of one out side of a Church getting to heaven are signifiantly LESS than being associated with a Christian church; and Far, Far worse if Not a member of the only church founded by God Himself in person; His CC.
3. One of the Commandments id “KEEP HOLY MY SABBATH DAY” and failing to do so is a MORTAL SIN!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[tevans9129]

I think that you’re right that we need to confess that we are sinners in need of a savior and that Jesus is that savior and through his death on the cross we receive the ability to be saved, however I think that is not all we must do to be ultimately saved. What about baptism?

Part 2 of 2

Using the NKJV, I find 42 verses dealing with salvation, not one of them mentions baptism as a requirement. If, our salvation depended upon baptism, would you not think the Lord would have made it very clear? He mentions other issues, why would baptism not be one of them?

In John John 4:22 he says, for salvation is from the Jews

Romans 10:10 he says, believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth results in salvation.

2 Corinthians 7:10 says that for the sorrow according God’s will produces a repentance leading to salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says that God destined us for obtaining salvation through Jesus.

Do I believe baptism is important for Christians? Certainly, in obedience to Jesus’ command and as a public statement in our belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, being symbolic of our old sinful person being buried and the new person in Jesus being raised.

If, a person believes in his heart and makes the confessions as commanded in the verses listed above but for whatever reason, cannot be baptized for a period of time, do you believe that God is going to send that person to hell?

Acts 2:38 But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

OK, what does he say is the reason for repenting and being baptized? Is it for salvation, or, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

If baptism is required for the remission of sins then how does one get in the presence of the one true God by faith alone without baptism?

Where does it say that baptism is required for the remission of sins, not in the verse you quoted? Does it not say, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized, where does it say baptism is for the remission of sins? Is that not what repentance is for?

BTW, FYI, the Greek word for “repent” is Strong’s number 3340. metanoeo,; from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (mor. feel compunction):—repent.

The Catholic Church teaches that you cannot be saved unless you’ve been justified.

OK, so the CC teaches that, can you direct me to the scriptures in the Bible, which you say was done by the CC, which also teaches that? I know Christian churches that teach differently and they use the Bible to support their teachings.

When talking to a Catholic we use the term justification a lot like how protestants use the term saved/salvation.

I am confused, how can “justification” be used like “salvation”? According to Strongs, the word used for justification is dikaiosis, which means, acquittal (for Christ’s sake):—justification.

OTOH, the word used for “salvation” is, soteria; fem. of a der. of 4990 as (prop. abstr.) noun; which means, rescue or safety (phys. or mor.):—deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

In my mind, there are two very different meanings, so which one should I believe, that was written in the original Greek and the meanings according to Strong’s, or, “a Catholic”?

On Earth if you’re in a state of grace (living a life that would allow you to be saved at death) then you are justified. Salvation doesn’t occur until after death. So if you are not justified you will not be saved.

OK, can you give me some scripture that supports those assertions? I happen to disagree with what you state, therefore, I would like some proof.

I am not trying to be difficult, only to show that when two sincere people have different views about religion, there must be a standard in which to judge. You say your church teaches so and so, I say my church teaches differently, how do you prove your church is right and mine is wrong? Since we both claim that our teachings are based on the Bible, why not use it in support of those teachings? Would that not be a novel idea?

If you choose to place your trust in the leadership of the Catholic Church, it is not a problem for me. I choose to place my trust in what the Bible has consistently stated for centuries, without change. I am not referring to the different versions but the original manuscripts those versions are based upon.

Thanks for the dialogue, have a great day.

Bear

 

[Rocky]

Part 1 or 2

It is noted that you stated, “the Catholic Church teaches”, however, where does the Bible teach that one must belong to the CC to be saved?..

Well, how about these verses, they seem as clear to me as one could ask?

Matthew 3:6 - confession of sins

Matthew 10:32 - confessing Jesus

Romans 10:9 - confessing that Jesus is Lord

Romans 10:10 confessing ones’ belief that Jesus is Lord

2 Corinthians 9:13 - confessing the Gospel of Christ

Philippians 2:11 - confessing Jesus Christ is Lord

1 John 1:9 - confessing our sins

1 John 2:23 - confessing the Son

1 John 4:2 - confessing that Jesus Christ came in the flesh

1 John 4:15 - confessing that Jesus is the Son of God.

I would say that confessing our sins, that Jesus is Lord, is the Son of God and confessing His gospel could be considered as pretty exact.

Bear

Matthew 3:6 says that people were confessing their sins as they were going to be baptized. I take from this that you agree that it is baptism that cleanses a person from his/her sins— both the sin of Adam that everyone inherits at birth, and if older any personal sin one may have committed up until then.

 

[tevans9129]

Originally Posted by tevans9129 34

Can you provide some scripture where we are required to do works to “keep” the gift? If I gave you a gift, say $1000.00, but in order for you to retain that gift, you must wash my car every week for a year, would you consider that a gift, or, would you feel like you earned that money?

What if we changed the amount and made 900 trillion billion dollars? Would any amount of window washing ever make you think you’d earned that gift? No, but you’d still feel like you should be doing something to repay that person for their unfathomable generous gift. Obviously Jesus dying on the cross for us is a bigger gift than anything we could ever dream of.

 

[jmcrae]

“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.”

I can no longer accept Church teaching on this verse, as well as several others, it should be painfully obvious that there are non-Catholic christians who have the life of Christ in them…unless you are wilfully blind.

There are also lots of atheists who live good, moral lives - does this mean that they don’t need God?

 

[jmcrae]

How do you explain the obvious life of Christ in non-Catholic christians?, answer that first.

The same way you explain the obvious life of Christ in people who’ve never even heard of Him - prevenient grace. Eventually, either in this life or the next, those people will become Catholic. The Holy Spirit is free to give them prevenient graces, to give them a foretaste of the glory to come, if they but choose to follow Him.

 

[Fragile]

There are also lots of atheists who live good, moral lives - does this mean that they don’t need God?

Who’s talking about atheists? We’re talking about folks who confess Christ, who are disciples.

“I was converted through the preaching of Billy Grahm.” – Fr. Larry Richards

I suppose what my priest said could be true, that God works outside the sacraments. Alot of this is my own internal struggles, I suppose I should not make public every thought I have!

 

[tevans9129]

Don’t know if someone pointed this out, but salvation is a process until we are in Heaven and not simply just an event in our lives.

Philipians 2:12: So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence…

Process, not just an event.

Thanks, you have made an interesting point. I will try to explain my view of the verse.

Paul was writing to the Philippian church, which I think one could plausible conclude were believers. If that being the case, they were already saved, however, would Paul not want to encourage them to become more like Christ. After all, he said to work “out” your salvation, he did not say work “for” your salvation.

Actually, the word “out” does not appear in the original text, it reads, “work your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Now, I have given an explanation for 2:12, would you give me yours for Acts 16:31 where Paul and Silas answered the jailers question as to what he must do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Now, do you suppose that Paul would have taken them “that hour” and baptized them had he not believed they were saved?

Of course, I could quote a number of verses like v31 but I think it makes the point.

Thanks again for reminding me of v12.

Bear

 

[Sufjon]

Sounds like a conspiracy, but Paul denied it:

“Perhaps the rumour started because I haven’t been much in the press lately. I have done enough press for a lifetime, and I don’t have anything to say these days. I am happy to be with my family and I will work when I work. I was switched on for ten years and I never switched off. Now I am switching off whenever I can. I would rather be a little less famous these days.” —Paul McCartney

 

[campeador]

So Bear,

you have no pillar of Truth?

 

[Sufjon]

So what is your interpretation of the above verse, Fragile? What do you think Our Lord meant?

It means that unless you understood what He was telling the apostles, you will have no realization or experience of the life in you. John the Baptist was no longer among them in the flesh at that point. Unfortunately, he was probably the only one who would have understood what Jesus meant. John was an Essene. The 12 were Torah Jews. Although the message would have been simple to John, the 12 would likely have trouble getting it except at a very base level, which is at least a starting point I suppose.

Fragile has no less body of Christ in him or her for not having been to a particular altar. The body of Christ is nearer than inside of you. One Bread One Body points at the truth. The body of Christ is the very fabric into which the thread of everything is woven, and likewise He is also the the thread. What you see as being the experience of “you” is only the interaction of sense organs and mind, however, that is not you. That is only how He experiences what He has created - through that which He creates. We are already in total communion with Christ. The problem is the realization part. It cannot be understood by the intellect. It is knowable only by the heart.

If Meltzerboy was on this thread, I get the sense he could probably explain better than I.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[campeador]

I’m glad you found that amusing my friend.

 

[Sufjon]

I’m glad you found that amusing my friend.

I did! Thanks! I am old enough to remember all that.

 

[tevans9129]

For those that have responded to my post and I have not answered, I am trying to respond to each one in the order they were posted. I am not ignoring anyone and I will respond when possible. Thanks to all for your (name removed by moderator)ut regarding the subject in this thread.

Bear

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

It means that unless you understood what He was telling the apostles, you will have no realization or experience of the life in you.

This is bordering on spiritual snobbery. It also begs the question.

John the Baptist was no longer among them in the flesh at that point. Unfortunately, he was probably the only one who would have understood what Jesus meant. John was an Essene.

I suppose you have John on record calling himself an essene?

If John was an essene he would not have been preaching in the desert about the messiah. If you actually knew of the lives of the essenes and their ascetic practices you would know how absurd this conclusion is.

And spare me the speculation of a few “scholars” who have educated themselves into foolishness.

The 12 were Torah Jews. Although the message would have been simple to John, the 12 would likely have trouble getting it except at a very base level, which is at least a starting point I suppose.

Nobody understood Jesus.

John was so sure that Jesus was the messiah that he had to send his followers to ask Him if he was(yes, that is sarcasim).

You really ought to not read into the Scriptures your own preconceived ideas.

Fragile has no less body of Christ in him or her for not having been to a particular altar. The body of Christ is nearer than inside of you.

Those not baptized into Christ’s body do not have Christ nor have they entered into His death. They who do not receive His body and Blood do not have Him abiding in them.

One Bread One Body points at the truth. The body of Christ is the very fabric into which the thread of everything is woven, and likewise He is also the thread.

Wow. This is a binch of pantheistic nonsense.

“Everything is God and God is everything.” Sorry, but pantheism is contradictory not only to the truth of God and Judaism but also Christianity as well.

What you see as being the experience of “you” is only the interaction of sense organs and mind, however, that is not you.

False, we were created as psycho-somatic(soul-body) realities. Our bodies are not the prisons of our souls. Our souls AND our bodies ARE who we are. They are integral to our existence. Hence it is why we will be resurrected body AND soul in heaven.

That is only how He experiences what He has created - through that which He creates.

Oh, wow, you did not just really say that God is dependent on His creation, did you?

We are already in total communion with Christ. The problem is the realization part. It cannot be understood by the intellect. It is knowable only by the heart.

False dichotomy. I can know with my intellect that 2+2=4. But I won’t die for that belief. I can, and do, know via my intellect that there is a God by observing that which He has made(Rom 1).

Communion with Christ is an objective reality, not a subjective experience. We enter into that communion by the way that Christ ordained; through His Church who ministers His sacraments.

 

[PRmerger]

It means that unless you understood what He was telling the apostles, you will have no realization or experience of the life in you.

That’s not a very difficult concept to understand! That seems quite innocuous, don’t you think, Sufjon?

 

[PRmerger]

Fragile has no less body of Christ in him or her for not having been to a particular altar

Well, unless he has the Eucharist, then he does not have the body of Christ in him.

The body of Christ is nearer than inside of you.

What could be nearer than inside of me?

One Bread One Body points at the truth. The body of Christ is the very fabric into which the thread of everything is woven, and likewise He is also the the thread. What you see as being the experience of “you” is only the interaction of sense organs and mind, however, that is not you. That is only how He experiences what He has created - through that which He creates. We are already in total communion with Christ. The problem is the realization part. It cannot be understood by the intellect. It is knowable only by the heart.

If Meltzerboy was on this thread, I get the sense he could probably explain better than I.

Your friend
Sufjon

Well, since meltzerboy is Jewish I really doubt that he would agree with your comments above, esp. the bolded section.

 

[Sufjon]

Well, unless he has the Eucharist, then he does not have the body of Christ in him.

What could be nearer than inside of me?

Well, since meltzerboy is Jewish I really doubt that he would agree with your comments above, esp. the bolded section.

Hi PRMerger. It’s not all that confusing. I have explained it the best I could. I’ll think about how I can say it better and get back with you. There are indeed certain types of Jews who would understand immediately.

Your friend
Sufjon