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Elsport1
Guest
Tevans-I thought the moderator comments might be directed at me…
I don’t think anyone minds if you ask “difficult” questions.
I don’t think anyone minds if you ask “difficult” questions.
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Elsport1
Guest
Tevans-I really am quite interested in how you feel comfortable using the Bible for your knowledge of how to be saved when it is clear that the very group who compiled the Bible thinks you’re wrong? It’s a question that has bugged me for some time as I have many friends who are not Catholic who believe in the “Bible alone” and the thought process just doesn’t make sense to me. Why trust the Catholic church got it right? If the church in your opinion gets so many things wrong isn’t it quite likely they’d get what books to put in the cannon quite wrong as well?
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Your scripture citations, while being out of context themselves, also ignore one glaring fact: in all of Paul’s letters he is writing to people who are already IN THE CHURCH. They are already Christians and therefore members of Christ’s body(
His statements are not meant to be constitutative elements in how to become a Christian but rather that he is addressing problems that existed within the local communities themselves.
Chrst instituted a Church.
This Church has four marks: The Church is One ( Acts 4:32; 1 Cor 1:10; Phil 2:2 )
The Church is Holy(Rom 11:16; 1 Cor 3:17; 1 Cor 6:19; Eph 5:27; Col 1:22; Tit 1:8; 1 Pet 2:9 )
The Church is Universal(Catholic) (1 Cor 1:2; 1 Cor 4:17; 1 Cor 7:17; 1 Cor 12:28 )
The Church is Apostolic: (Acts 2:42).
The authority of the Apostles is the authority of Christ Himself. And they passed this authority to those whom they discipled.(Luke 10:16; 1 Thes 2:13; 2 Tim 2:2; 1 John 4:6).
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
& John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
Jesus gives His authority to men. Men that He chose, but men nontheless.
The Church has the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22; John 14:26; John 16:13; Acts 15:28 ), not just any believer(Rom 8:9).
The Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23).
The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth(1 Tim 3:15).
The Church is the Body of Christ(1 Cor 12:27).
Christ gave these men-the Apostles-the authority to forgive sins in His name(Matt 9:8; John 20:23).
He gave them the authority to expel those who persist in disobedience(Matt 18:16-19; 1 Cor 5:4-5).
This authority was passed on from the apostles to other approved men(2 Tim 2:2; Titus 1:5).
Those who are God’s people listen to those men whom God has appointed(1 John 4:6).
This Church is headed by Peter whom Christ identified with Himself(Matt 16:17-19; Acts 15:7).
One of these men who was ordained bishop by both Peter and John was Ignatius of Antioch.
What did one who sat at the feet of John the evangelist have to say about the Church and those who are outside of it?
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].”(Letter to the Philadelphians, chpt 3)
&
“I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed.”(Letter to the Magnesians, chpt 6)
&
“In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church.”(Letter to the Trallians, chpt 3)
& lastly…
“Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles. He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience.”(Letter to the Trallians, chpt 7).
Christ is the husband of His bride: the Church.
Salvation comes from the Head-Jesus-through His Body-the Church.
God is glorified in the fullest in His Church, not outside of it.
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Elsport1
Guest
I’d never thought of that!
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
But the subjective opinions of some protestant evangelical “missionary” are gospel truth just because he can intersperse various out-of-context scripture references in his sermons?
Justin Martyr was a Christian of the second century who argued against the Roman Senate and the Emperor, Antonius Pius, against putting Christians to death for nothing else than being Christians. His letters(that is his first and second apologies) are a strong witness to Christians and Christianity-who they were and how they worshipped-from that time.
It worries me that because his letters read as a little too “Catholic” for your tastes that you so easily reject them. Those who are honestly searching for the truth don’t reject something just because it doesn’t fit their preconceived notions.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
:banghead:
**First, any question directed to the moderator must be through a PM, not on the thread.
Second, a suggestion to observe the rules of the forum below is not necessarily directed at anyone in particular, so stop being paranoid.
Sheesh!!
**
**First, any question directed to the moderator must be through a PM, not on the thread.
Second, a suggestion to observe the rules of the forum below is not necessarily directed at anyone in particular, so stop being paranoid.
Sheesh!!
**
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, one must belong to the Church in which one can receive the Bread of Life - that is to say, the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Saviour, Jesus Christ, given to us under the appearances of bread and wine, by a Catholic priest who is in full communion with the Apostle Peter’s successor, the Bishop of Rome (because it was to Peter that the Keys were given, to bind and loose Church doctrine and Church discipline, and he passed them on to the Bishop of Rome at the time of his death).
Jesus Himself tells us that we must consume His Body and Blood, in order to be saved. The only way we can do that is by becoming Catholics in good standing with the Church and in a state of grace, so as to be able to receive the Eucharist, which is the only thing on earth that is His Body and Blood.
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jmcrae
Guest
It does not say “only” do this, and be saved. This is one of the many things that one must do, to be saved. We must fulfill every verse of the Scriptures; not just the one that amounts to the least work and trouble for us.
St Paul was writing to Catholic Church members - they were already members of the Church so he did not need to instruct them to join the Church.
If you continue in this way, and you truly hear God, then one day, you will be Catholic, either in this life or in the next.
The Church itself is a gift from God, and membership in the Church is a gift from God; it is not something we “earn.” Indeed, many infants become members of the Church without ever doing anything at all on their own behalf.
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jmcrae
Guest
They are not in full communion with the Successor of Peter.
We need to belong to the Church that Christ established (act 1) in order to be able to obey His commandment to receive His Body and Blood - the Eucharist (act 2).
But if you want to be disobedient, then of what use would it be to you to receive the Eucharist, even if it were valid (as it is in a very, very few cases)? (And why would you care about being obedient to Jesus in that one thing, if you want to disobey everything else? )
We need to belong to the Church that Christ established (act 1) in order to be able to obey His commandment to receive His Body and Blood - the Eucharist (act 2).
But if you want to be disobedient, then of what use would it be to you to receive the Eucharist, even if it were valid (as it is in a very, very few cases)? (And why would you care about being obedient to Jesus in that one thing, if you want to disobey everything else?
)
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jmcrae
Guest
And how many Orthodox churches are there? I think about seven, maybe? Russian, Greek, Ukranian, and …
As compared to the thousands of Protestant denominations that do not have a valid Eucharist, nor even pretend to.
As compared to the thousands of Protestant denominations that do not have a valid Eucharist, nor even pretend to.
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James2bailey
Guest
To answer your question; Yes, church membership is required for salvation. I would like to challenge you to go to church. I would encourage you to go to a Catholic Mass specifically. Open yourself to what is going on and do what everybody else does regarding sitting, standing, or kneeling. Listen to what is being said and hear what the Lord is saying to you. In order to be saved you need to be Baptized. This is called a Sacrament which is offered by the Church through an ordained minister such as a Priest, Bishop, or Deacon. You will need to enroll in a preparation class which usually last nine months attending a weekly class. You will meet ministers and parishoners who will guide you. Catholics are never alone. The Church or the body of Christ is built of people, not just a fancy building but a community of faith. Jesus never sent the Apostles alone, they alway went in groups of two.
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jmcrae
Guest
First, I did not say “30,000” - I said “thousands.” Which there are. Heck, there are thousands of Baptist denominations, never mind Protestant.
And I did mean to include every single and last one of them, including the JWs and the Mormons, and all.
By contrast, every neighborhood is part of a Catholic parish.
And I did mean to include every single and last one of them, including the JWs and the Mormons, and all.
Even so, they don’t claim to have the Real Presence of Christ - which is a good thing, because they don’t have a valid priesthood, anyway.
There may be 15 or more in the world, but in any given city there are maybe one or two tiny little congregations of something Eastern that have valid Eucharists (but that are still not in valid Holy Communion with the Successor of Peter, in any case, so the validity of their Eucharist achieves no unitive effect).
By contrast, every neighborhood is part of a Catholic parish.
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jmcrae
Guest
To the OP:
Yes, Church membership is required.
Jesus established the Church (upon this Rock I shall establish my Church; Matt 16:18) not because He was lost for something to do one afternoon, but because He wanted us to be members of it. We know by looking at history that the Bishop of Rome is the earthly head of the Church that Christ established - no other church even comes close.
Jesus wants you to be a member of His Church; therefore, in order to please Him, you should join up.
Yes, Church membership is required.
Jesus established the Church (upon this Rock I shall establish my Church; Matt 16:18) not because He was lost for something to do one afternoon, but because He wanted us to be members of it. We know by looking at history that the Bishop of Rome is the earthly head of the Church that Christ established - no other church even comes close.
Jesus wants you to be a member of His Church; therefore, in order to please Him, you should join up.
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PJM
Guest
My dear friend in Christ;
Your stated position seems to contradict itself. You calim to be a “bible believer” but articulate a position that opposes what the Bible actually says and teaches.
In that Only One Faith in the ENTIRE WORLD was ans IS Founded by Jesus Christ Himself [it’s in the bible], and that the ENTIRE BIBLE BOTH the OT and NT express God’s desire for only One Church; One faith [set of beliefs], based on One New over-riding Covenant; their are a MULTITUDE of VALID reasons for you and everyone else to be part of it. That is in FACT God’s Desire; God’s WIll and God’s plan for salvation.
**Phil.2: 2 ** “complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.”
**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God [SINGULAR], built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;
**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”
If you’d like more information, PLEASE contacy me. In charity and truth I’ll help you out.
God Bless you!
Pat
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Swiss_Guy
Guest
Even so, they don’t claim to have the Real Presence of Christ - which is a good thing, because they don’t have a valid priesthood, anyway.
I don’t want to get off topic but…um… you’re wrong about the claim. Lutherans believe they receive bread, wine, and the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. Just clarifying.
I don’t want to get off topic but…um… you’re wrong about the claim. Lutherans believe they receive bread, wine, and the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. Just clarifying.
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jmcrae
Guest
Some do, maybe? I think the official Lutheran teaching is consubstantiation - a spiritual presence of Christ resting in bread and wine - no substantial change in the bread and wine takes place.
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jmcrae
Guest
We are speaking to the OP who I think does not live in Russia. Or Greece.
You know that I meant Easterns out of communion. Obviously, there are Eastern Catholics, and I was not referring to them - they are in full Holy Communion as well as having a fully valid (and not merely technically valid) Eucharist.
Try to understand what you know I mean, instead of nitpicking me to death.
You know that I meant Easterns out of communion. Obviously, there are Eastern Catholics, and I was not referring to them - they are in full Holy Communion as well as having a fully valid (and not merely technically valid) Eucharist.
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babylonsfalling
Guest
Hebrews 10
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another : and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
You don’t need a Bible verse to figure that out though and you know it. Christ is the example and he went to Temple…we go to Church. Get over it, you’ll be fine.
In my teens, I had all kinds of high sounding theological excuses for not going to Church and many, maybe even all were correct in the strictest sense, but none of them was the real reason, they were just excuses. I know it’s not just me because too many other kids were all doing the same thing. Most out grow that excuse making tendency and come to terms with the truth which for 99% of the people is "Waaahhh…but I don’t WANNA go and you can’t make me!!"
Read something into your own behavior, it’s real obvious you just don’t want to go, you don’t feel right about it, and you want to have a debate/argument about it. That much is obvious because you knew you were never going to get a bunch of Catholics to say it’s okay not to go to church.
There are legitimate reasons for not going to church from time to time. There are also folk who are on a search for any reason they can find for not going to church. And you know which category you’re in.
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jmcrae
Guest
Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.
I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
It probably was - it remains that Peter’s Successor is the Bishop of Rome, and his Church is Christ’s Church; that was Christ’s promise.
I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
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mackbrislawn
Guest
The short answer is no, you do not have to be a member of a church as such, but you do have to be a member of the Kingdom.
Keep in mind that we only know about Christ as Savior, only know about the Bible and believe in it, is because of the Church. Without her, we would all be pagans. So, we are all dependent upon the Church in that way.
Also, scripture exhorts us to not forsake the gathering together, as is the practice of some. So, a lone ranger Christian is not what the bible expects. Plus, scripture commands us to be baptized, and when that happens, we are automatically a member of the church!
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