Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[tevans9129]

Sigh…

Of course it doesn’t instruct the Bereans to run to various churches, is becaue there were no churches for them to run to! They didn’t exist yet! That is, the apostle Paul himself was the Church, as Jesus’ earthly representative. Jesus heads His Church in heaven, but uses earthly men as His foundation, his rock, on earth.

The word the Bereans received was Paul’s news about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that He is the Messiah. Paul used the Jewish scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, to show to them that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

A couple of things, from some of the replies here to my post, I got the impression that the disciples were members of the CC, is that incorrect?

What is your evidence that, “They didn’t exist yet”? When do you say the church was formed? I thought the Christian belief was the church was formed at Pentecost, is that not true? If it is, I believe the first mention of Pentecost was in Acts 2 and the actions of the Bereans was noted in Acts 17, therefore how can you say the church did not exist yet?

Does the verse not specifically say that they searched the Scriptures, why would it not have said that they inquired of Paul? In addition, if Paul was a member of the CC and he was the one that told them, “…about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ…”, why do you suppose they still examined the “Scriptures” to see if what Paul had taught them was so? Does that convey to you the idea that regardless of who asserts something relative to scripture, that we should verify it with scripture?

Now, the Bereans didn’t carry scriptures around with them as we do today, so they had to go back to the synagogue to look throught the OT scriptures. First, to see if the passages Paul was talking about were actually there, and as he quoted them. Keep in mind there were no chapters and verses in those days, so they had to spend some time in coming to the parts Paul was talking about. Then they had to ponder and decide if Paul was applying them right, or simply twisting them. The Bereans decided he was applying them right, unlike many other Jews who did not accept Jesus as Messiah.

Thank you, I believe that you just supported my contention that we should verify, with scripture, what anyone tells us. If the Lord saw fit to place the admonition of the Bereans verifying what Paul, a Catholic according to some, had told them, then why should anyone not apply the same instructions as to what we are told many centuries removed from the original disciples?

And so, the Bereans became a church themselves, a congregation of the universal Church headed by Jesus in heaven.

Ok, and your evidence is? Oh, if your reference is v12, perhaps you could explain how they became a “church” when it clearly says, “Therefore many of them believed…”, not a word about baptism, only that they “believed”. So, were they saved and members of the body of Christ, or not?

However, Gnostic churches came into being also,

That presents another problem for me, I have been told that the CC was the only church at that time, so is that untrue or, were the “Gnostic churches” part of the CC?

with beliefs which you and I would today consider pretty far out. We would not think of them as congregations of the church of Jesus. So, some churches can be under Jesus’ church, and others may not be. Paul was a man, did he make mistakes? How about the founders of the Gnostic churches?

Now that statement we can agree upon. In answer to your questions, yes and yes, all created beings make mistakes, IMO. That is why I believe strongly in using scripture to verify what some “man” has asserted as fact.

Okay, church bodies can make mistakes. But, it was a church body that decided what was Christian scripture or not, and decided that it was inspired. Since church bodies can make mistakes, maybe they made a mistake and scripture isn’t inspired after all. Maybe they made mistakes in deciding what writings were true or not. So maybe what we call the Bible isn’t the word of the Lord and infallible after all. Who knows?

OK, does it make sense to you that if God could not accomplish His word being available for all mankind, saying what He wanted it to say, that He would place so much emphasis on it?

I think the sample of verses below demonstrate the point.

Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Thanks for your comments, looking forward to your answers for my questions.

Bear

 

[PRmerger]

Jews.

Jews who celebrated the Eucharist?

 

[jmcrae]

A couple of things, from some of the replies here to my post, I got the impression that the disciples were members of the CC, is that incorrect?

That is correct. The Apostles were our first Bishops, and Peter was our first Pope.

What is your evidence that, “They didn’t exist yet”?

She was referring to Bible-only Protestant churches. The Bereans were not running to Bible-only churches to verify the teachings of St. Paul, because they didn’t exist yet.

When do you say the church was formed? I thought the Christian belief was the church was formed at Pentecost, is that not true? If it is, I believe the first mention of Pentecost was in Acts 2 and the actions of the Bereans was noted in Acts 17, therefore how can you say the church did not exist yet?

The Church (singular) certainly existed. St. Paul was its representative to the Bereans.

Does the verse not specifically say that they searched the Scriptures, why would it not have said that they inquired of Paul? In addition, if Paul was a member of the CC and he was the one that told them, “…about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ…”, why do you suppose they still examined the “Scriptures” to see if what Paul had taught them was so? Does that convey to you the idea that regardless of who asserts something relative to scripture, that we should verify it with scripture?

You certainly should. What you should not do is see whether it conforms to the opinions of your favourite “Bible-only” church.

When you just read the Bible straight, without listening to the opinions of various groups, you find that the Bible is in fact very Catholic.

Ok, and your evidence is? Oh, if your reference is v12, perhaps you could explain how they became a “church” when it clearly says, “Therefore many of them believed…”, not a word about baptism, only that they “believed”. So, were they saved and members of the body of Christ, or not?

If they believed, then we must assume that they also obeyed, meaning that they also got baptized and Confirmed to receive the washing away of their sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - and that they joined with the community of the believers in their Church.

That presents another problem for me, I have been told that the CC was the only church at that time, so is that untrue or, were the “Gnostic churches” part of the CC?

They were members of the CC who preached heresy. They never started their own organization - they preached their heresies in Catholic churches. This was why it was so important to ensure that their errors were pointed out, and stopped.

OK, does it make sense to you that if God could not accomplish His word being available for all mankind, saying what He wanted it to say, that He would place so much emphasis on it?

God’s Word is the Person of Jesus Christ - it is not the Bible. When the Bible uses the phrase “the Word of God” it is not referring to itself. It is referring to Jesus.

I think the sample of verses below demonstrate the point.

Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

That’ Word is not the Bible; that’s Jesus. “My Word” is Jesus, the Person.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

At the time that Jesus spoke those words, nothing that He had said had yet been written down - it was all orally spoken, and remembered and passed on by word of mouth. So, again - not the Bible. In this case, the “words” are the Oral Tradition out of which the Scriptures later arose.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Again, this is referring to the Oral Tradition and to the Person of Christ - not to the Bible.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

And, yet again, the “Word” here is the Oral Tradition and the Person of Christ - not the Bible.

 

[tevans9129]

Notice that in Acts 17:11 the Bereans didn’t learn about Jesus and Christianity from Scripture. They learned the good news, the gospel, from the Church, not Scripture. They received the word from Jesus, through the Church, through Paul representing the Church.

Now I am really confused, is this not your previous statement?

“Of course it doesn’t instruct the Bereans to run to various churches, is becaue there were no churches for them to run to”.

Now you are saying that they learned from" the Church, not Scripture". Which statement is true?

Sometimes 17:11 is used to show that we should go to the Scriptures only, but in fact this passage demonstrates exactly the opposite. First, the Scriptures referred to were the Old Testament Jewish scriptures, as New Testament Christian scriptures didn’t exist yet.

You are right, the NT scriptures did not exist then, so what do you suppose they were all teaching from when the scriptures were mentioned? Do you think that Jesus could not be proven by just using the OT? Why do you think the NT writers, including Jesus, quoted from scripture, OT, so often?

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, “I am thirsty.”

Acts 17:2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Romans 15:4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Of course there are many other verses, not to mention all the verses of scripture, OT, that were quoted in the NT. So how do you explain these? I could go through each verse and find many questions but my guess is that it would be a waste of time.

Second, the Bereans then had to rely on outside sources, sources outside of scripture, to learn about Jesus. They relied upon the Church as represented by the man, Paul.

Definitely not scripture alone.

Oh really, would you care to quote scripture that makes such a claim? Does your statement not seem contradictory to that of Jesus in Luke 24:27?

“Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.”

Does Jesus tell them to rely on the “church” or does He tell them that they can start with Moses and the prophets and learn about things “concerning Himself in all the Scriptures”?

It seems to me that the NT sure mentions, “the scriptures”, a lot when all they had were those of the OT. Why do you suppose they did that?

Just FYI, an excerpt from Studylight.org.

“The New Testament writers included approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations, and if one includes indirect or partial quotations, the number jumps to more than 1,000.”

Bear

 

[WCH]

Jews who celebrated the Eucharist?

The immediate disciples of Jesus were Jews. Being they were immediate disciples, there was no church.

 

[WCH]

A couple of things, from some of the replies here to my post, I got the impression that the disciples were members of the CC, is that incorrect?

What is your evidence that, “They didn’t exist yet”? When do you say the church was formed? I thought the Christian belief was the church was formed at Pentecost, is that not true? If it is, I believe the first mention of Pentecost was in Acts 2 and the actions of the Bereans was noted in Acts 17, therefore how can you say the church did not exist yet?

Does the verse not specifically say that they searched the Scriptures, why would it not have said that they inquired of Paul? In addition, if Paul was a member of the CC and he was the one that told them, “…about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ…”, why do you suppose they still examined the “Scriptures” to see if what Paul had taught them was so? Does that convey to you the idea that regardless of who asserts something relative to scripture, that we should verify it with scripture?

Thank you, I believe that you just supported my contention that we should verify, with scripture, what anyone tells us. If the Lord saw fit to place the admonition of the Bereans verifying what Paul, a Catholic according to some, had told them, then why should anyone not apply the same instructions as to what we are told many centuries removed from the original disciples?

Ok, and your evidence is? Oh, if your reference is v12, perhaps you could explain how they became a “church” when it clearly says, “Therefore many of them believed…”, not a word about baptism, only that they “believed”. So, were they saved and members of the body of Christ, or not?

That presents another problem for me, I have been told that the CC was the only church at that time, so is that untrue or, were the “Gnostic churches” part of the CC?

Now that statement we can agree upon. In answer to your questions, yes and yes, all created beings make mistakes, IMO. That is why I believe strongly in using scripture to verify what some “man” has asserted as fact.

OK, does it make sense to you that if God could not accomplish His word being available for all mankind, saying what He wanted it to say, that He would place so much emphasis on it?

I think the sample of verses below demonstrate the point.

Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Thanks for your comments, looking forward to your answers for my questions.

Bear

Paul, et. al., were not Roman Catholics, unless of course, one engages in the fallacy of anachronism. Then they also could have been Muslims.

 

[PRmerger]

In truth, as a result of salvation, one is placed into the true church by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:12-13).

This is curious, WCH, that you are quoting from the NT to support your viewpoint, yet you clearly stated that the OT is all that is needed. All that is needed. IOW, the NT is not needed, yes?

Right. The OT has all that is needed to bring one to salvation. Don’t you believe that?

 

[PRmerger]

The immediate disciples of Jesus were Jews. Being they were immediate disciples, there was no church.

This is true. The Catholic Church began at Pentecost, and the Catholic priesthood began at the Last Supper.

(Although, 'tis true that all the above have its roots in the OT and Judaism, of course.)

 

[WCH]

This is curious, WCH, that you are quoting from the NT to support your viewpoint, yet you clearly stated that the OT is all that is needed. All that is needed. IOW, the NT is not needed, yes?

Why are you afraid of me using the NT? I thought Catholics prided themselves in believing everything in the NT?

 

[WCH]

This is true. The Catholic Church began at Pentecost, and the Catholic priesthood began at the Last Supper.

The catholic church to which all believers belong began at Pentecost.

 

[campeador]

The catholic church to which all believers belong began at Pentecost.

Yes, “the pillar and foundation of Truth”.

 

[johnbaker]

If it doesn’t matter to you what church you belong too, that is the same as saying the real truth does not matter to you either…TRUTH MATTERS and belonging to the Church that teaches the truth is what you should want more than anything…

 

[WCH]

Yes, “the pillar and foundation of Truth”.

That’s right. The one and only catholic church.

 

[Little_One0307]

If it doesn’t matter to you what church you belong too, that is the same as saying the real truth does not matter to you either…TRUTH MATTERS and belonging to the Church that teaches the truth is what you should want more than anything…

Johnbaker,

Welcome to CAF. A wise priest told me once, if you knew where the fullness of Truth resides would you want to go anywhere else? You have hit the nail on the head. Truth does matter, Truth in its fullness, and that is to be found in the Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

[SIGN]Three cheers for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church WOOT!!![/SIGN]

 

[jmcrae]

That’s right. The one and only catholic church.

Headed by Peter’s Successor, together with the rest of the Successors of the Apostles.

 

[ajpirc]

OK. I am very confused!

Why does it matter if I am Catholic, if I can still attain salvation if I were Protestant? This has been driving me crazy for a VERY long time. Can someone please explain to me why it matters for me to be Catholic?

 

[PRmerger]

OK. I am very confused!

Why does it matter if I am Catholic, if I can still attain salvation if I were Protestant? This has been driving me crazy for a VERY long time. Can someone please explain to me why it matters for me to be Catholic?

Because you want to belong to the Church that teaches the Truth.

That’s the only reason to believe something, ajpirc–because it’s *true. *

 

[Little_One0307]

OK. I am very confused!

Why does it matter if I am Catholic, if I can still attain salvation if I were Protestant? This has been driving me crazy for a VERY long time. Can someone please explain to me why it matters for me to be Catholic?

Hi,

Because the fullness of Truth, of grace are to be found only in the Catholic Church. Yes you can attain salvation in the other churches, but would you rather be where the fullness of grace is? The Sacraments are to be found in this Church, and they and the Church is all ordered to one’s attainment of a closer Union with God.

I am greedy lol and I want the Fullness of it All and thats why I am a Catholic. It does matter because I want a closer Union with God. I want to be in the Church that Jesus founded, and I could go on and on.

This is a simplified version without citations and sources, I am sure someone who is adept at that will take care of that later.

God Bless.

 

[WCH]

Headed by Peter’s Successor, together with the rest of the Successors of the Apostles.

Hasn’t there been disagreement over that since 1054 or so?

 

[WCH]

Can someone please explain to me why it matters for me to be Catholic?

Why can’t you explain it?