Is a church membership needed for salvation?

[PRmerger]

The catholic church to which all believers belong began at Pentecost.

Heh. You want to belong, eh?

St. Augustine got it right so many centuries ago:

“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that,** although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ **when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]).

 

[jmcrae]

OK. I am very confused!

Why does it matter if I am Catholic, if I can still attain salvation if I were Protestant? This has been driving me crazy for a VERY long time. Can someone please explain to me why it matters for me to be Catholic?

“Can” does not mean “will.” Without the Sacraments, your chances of dying in the state of grace become reduced by quite a lot.

What if you were not able to go to Confession any time you had sinned? Well, your alternative would be to go your entire life without ever committing a sin. Something we should be striving for anyway, of course - but how many Protestants are there, do you think, who make it through their entire lives with never an angry word, or lustful thought? These are the things that drag us down to Hell, unless we have the grace of the Sacraments.

But we can’t say that every Protestant goes to Hell, because we can’t know for a fact that there is no Protestant who has not lived a perfect life from the moment of his baptism until the moment of his death.

But realistically, how likely is that?

 

[WCH]

Heh. You want to belong, eh?

St. Augustine got it right so many centuries ago:

“[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that,** although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ **when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]).

I already do belong to it.

 

[jmcrae]

I already do belong to it.

If you are baptized, you have a partial, though invisible, communion with the Church.

However, you are not yet able to partake of the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace given by God to His People.

 

[PRmerger]

Why are you afraid of me using the NT?

I suppose it’s because you stated that you don’t need the NT–you only need the OT.

Now, since you posted that original premise I’ve noticed that you haven’t repeated it. So I assume that you’re now rescinding and acknowledging that the OT is not all that’s needed, yes?

Right. The OT has all that is needed to bring one to salvation. Don’t you believe that?

 

[WCH]

If you are baptized, you have a partial, though invisible, communion with the Church.

I’m completely in Christ’s Church (1 Cor 12:12, 13).

However, you are not yet able to partake of the Sacraments, which are the ordinary means of grace given by God to His People.

I neither need your sacraments to be saved, nor do I need them to be in Christ’s Church.

 

[WCH]

I suppose it’s because you stated that you don’t need the NT–you only need the OT.

It’s too bad you’re afraid.

 

[ajpirc]

“Can” does not mean “will.” Without the Sacraments, your chances of dying in the state of grace become reduced by quite a lot.

What if you were not able to go to Confession any time you had sinned? Well, your alternative would be to go your entire life without ever committing a sin. Something we should be striving for anyway, of course - but how many Protestants are there, do you think, who make it through their entire lives with never an angry word, or lustful thought? These are the things that drag us down to Hell, unless we have the grace of the Sacraments.

But we can’t say that every Protestant goes to Hell, because we can’t know for a fact that there is no Protestant who has not lived a perfect life from the moment of his baptism until the moment of his death.

But realistically, how likely is that?

This helps, but I’m reading another thread that’s talking about Protestants not having Confession, but if they go straight to Christ in a prayer, they could be forgiven. Any clarification on this?

 

[PRmerger]

I already do belong to it.

Well, yes, since you were baptized Catholic you have the indelible mark on your soul. And that is what’s calling you back, and why you are here to dialogue with Catholics–there is something attractive and "magnetic’ one should think in that Catholic soul of yours!

Stay here and continue to learn and you’ll be returning sooner or later!

 

[PRmerger]

This helps, but I’m reading another thread that’s talking about Protestants not having Confession, but if they go straight to Christ in a prayer, they could be forgiven. Any clarification on this?

The clarification comes from Jesus: they should strive to enter.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m completely in Christ’s Church (1 Cor 12:12, 13).

Again with the NT quoting!

Right. The OT has all that is needed to bring one to salvation. Don’t you believe that?

Actually, I’m done messing with you, WCH. I know you didn’t really mean the above so I won’t bring it up again.

 

[TrueLight]

OK. I am very confused!

Why does it matter if I am Catholic, if I can still attain salvation if I were Protestant? This has been driving me crazy for a VERY long time. Can someone please explain to me why it matters for me to be Catholic?

This is an incredibly important question. We cannot underestimate it. I have been thinking the same thing these past few days.

Quite honestly, Catholicism has a lot more rules and is a lot more legalistic, especially the whole mortal sins part.

If Protestantism is A-okay, is my desire to have the “fullness” worth not being able to use ABC, masturbate, not have pre-marital sex, etc, etc.

And I don’t mean to be crude or imply that pre-marital sex is okay with all Protestant groups, but it is with some.

If Protestantism is A-Ok, then it will be fairly easy for Catholics to drift to the Protestant church.

 

[campeador]

That’s right. The one and only catholic church.

Great to see we’re in agreement about church membership.

Now, would you mind talking to Tevans?

 

[tevans9129]

Matthew 3:6 says that people were confessing their sins as they were going to be baptized. I take from this that you agree that it is baptism that cleanses a person from his/her sins— both the sin of Adam that everyone inherits at birth, and if older any personal sin one may have committed up until then.

No, I do not agree, it does not say that baptizing was cleansing them, it says they “were confessing theirs sins, *as they were going to be baptized”. I believe what the scripture says in 1 John 1:9.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

How much clearer can it get? It is black and white, written by the beloved apostle of Jesus, we confess our sins and Jesus forgives us and “cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. No jumping through hoops, no changing scripture, IMO, either Jesus is the one that forgives and cleanses us or, He is a liar, or, the author of John is a liar, who do you believe?

Now can you quote one verse that states just as clearly that being baptized is what “cleanses” us, one that does not have a plausible explanation?

If, being baptized is what cleanses us, why was Jesus baptized, did He have sins that needed to be forgiven; did He need to be cleansed?

OTOH, suppose that baptism is a public symbol of our old self being buried with Jesus and the new self being resurrected, born again, with the resurrection of our Saviour. However, the only reason that I need to be baptized is that Jesus commanded us to do it, after, we believe in Him.

Bear

 

[PRmerger]

If Protestantism is A-okay, is my desire to have the “fullness” worth not being able to use ABC, masturbate, not have pre-marital sex, etc, etc.

This is a trenchant point, TrueLight, and brings to light exactly what is wrong with Protestantism: it creates a god in one’s own image, rather than having us conform our image to that of God’s.

Some find the teaching on ABC to be unpalatable, so, like the serpent whispered millenia ago in the Garden, say, “Did God really say…?” IOW, they’d rather not change their behavior/beliefs/practices so, rather, decide that God didn’t really adjure such and such a teaching.

 

[tevans9129]

Thanks, Bear.

But would you please respond to this post I made, way back on page 5?

Thanks!

I would be happy to engage in a discussion with you on this subject, if, you wish to do so by PM.

Bear

 

[campeador]

This is an incredibly important question. We cannot underestimate it. I have been thinking the same thing these past few days.

Quite honestly, Catholicism has a lot more rules and is a lot more legalistic, especially the whole mortal sins part.

If Protestantism is A-okay, is my desire to have the “fullness” worth not being able to use ABC, masturbate, not have pre-marital sex, etc, etc.

And I don’t mean to be crude or imply that pre-marital sex is okay with all Protestant groups, but it is with some.

If Protestantism is A-Ok, then it will be fairly easy for Catholics to drift to the Protestant church.

“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism *, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

“In the Church God has placed apostles, prophets, teachers, and every other working of the Spirit, of whom none of those are sharers who do not conform to the Church, but who defraud themselves of life by an evil mind and even worse way of acting. Where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies* 3:24:1 [A.D. 189]).*

 

[ajpirc]

The clarification comes from Jesus: they should strive to enter.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

I think that’s what jmcrae was saying. The sacraments give us the grace to strive. Without them, we can’t.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, WCH,

I joined late… and have been trying to catch up reading the posts. When I got to this one, it really stopped me cold! I think we really need to talk…

I’m completely in Christ’s Church (1 Cor 12:12, 13).

I neither need your sacraments to be saved, nor do I need them to be in Christ’s Church.

Here is an expanded reference from 1Corinthians…

12
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.
13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
14
Now the body is not a single part, but many.
15
If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
16
Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
17
If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18
But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
19
If they were all one part, where would the body be?

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that because you were baptized you are a member of the Body of Christ AND your salvation is assured because of this. Have I understood your position correctly?

If so, let me direct your attention to the 25th Chapter of Matthew. Here’s a link you may find helpful: usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm . The entire chapter is very instructive and I am sure you are familiar with this - but, let me give you a brief summary:

v 1-13 - the five wise and five foolish virgins. It would be unjust not to say a kind word about the foolish ones. They got there on time, brought their lamps and waited - ah, but the missing oil. Not exactly like leaving your house without your cell phone - and these wise ones were certainly not very generous! Now, when they finally come back with their oil - they are not welcomed by the Master with something like “Well, you were pretty good girls after all!” Nope - the door was shut! The message here is that you have to do things to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

v 14-30 - the lazy servant. Here we have a more specific example of where personal cooperation with God’s Grace is not an option if you do not want to be thrown out into the darkness. I picture these three servants entering the beginnings of a Bull Market - the first two bought low and sold high,(God blessed their activities) while the third servant was a total disgrace and effectively squandered the talent God had given to him. Finally,

v 31-46 - the General Judgment. Those who provided goods and services to their fellow creatures were rewarded with everlasting life - and publicly blessed (in front of all humanity) for their actions in trying to relieve suffering and misery. But, there will be some who dropped the ball and thoguht they were heading for the Pearly Gates because they knew something about the Lord. The snag is that they DID know something about the Lord - they should have known He expected them to actually work.

Now, I do not where you get the idea that you don’t “…need your sacraments to be saved”. I think you may have missed the boat on that one! Let’s take a look at three of the Seven Sacraments.

You claim to be baptized - well … ? (Matt 28:19)

It was not the Pope who said that unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man … you will have no life in you. It was Christ (John 6:53)

It was not the Pope who told the Apostles whose sins they forgive are forgiven …! It was Christ. (John 20:21)

If you are really interested in moving beyond redemption (the foolish virgins, lazy servant and indifferent souls were all redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb - they just failed to do their part and cooperate with the Grace of God) and going to salvation, you need to re-evaluate your statements.

God bless

 

[TrueLight]

Now can you quote one verse that states just as clearly that being baptized is what “cleanses” us, one that

Hi Tevans.

I haven’t read this whole thread, but will “wash” suffice for “cleanse?”

Below is Paul recounting the story of his conversion.

6 “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’

8 “‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked.

“ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.

10 “‘What shall I do, Lord?’ I asked.

“ ‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ 11 My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.

12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.

14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’