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PatriceA
Guest
I think this is where you and I disagree, because I think ALL those types of masses can be reverent and sacred.
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TheMc
Guest
On a very obvious level, how many parishes that have these so called folk Masses sing chant and play organ on any sort of regular basis? There’s much more to it, but I just have to wonder.
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TheMc
Guest
Unfortunately, the church doesn’t agree with you.
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PatriceA
Guest
Why do you presume that the drummer would be dressed in a manner not consistent with the occasion or setting? Playing the drums doesn’t necessarily mean one would not be modest in their clothing.
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TheMc
Guest
Maybe because every liturgical drummer I’ve ever seen was dressed like a slob. And I’ve seen quite a few of them.
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Black Metal?
You underestimate the profound effect music has on our mood, on atmosphere and how we approach and understand things. Don’t believe me? Play an upbeat tune around a family whose loved one is about to die. See how much they celebrate and sing along and clap their hands to the beat.
The Mass is not the place for our interpretation of music or our own love of things. It is for God. We raise ourselves to Him! Let’s not force Him to come down to us, to listen to our music.
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PatriceA
Guest
How so? I have yet to see any actual proof that the Church does not agree with me or with your opinion for that matter.
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PatriceA
Guest
I do not underestimate the profound effect music has on our moods, or in the sacredness of the mass for that matter. We can certainly raise ourselves to God through various types of music, doesn’t have to be just one genre or avenue. You don’t know what God listens to as far as music goes anymore than I do. You could be totally wrong, or I can. Or we can both be right as well and let a variety of musical instruments be played at Mass at various times. Don’t like the folk music at a certain parish or Mass? Find a parish that does play the type of instrument you prefer.
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PatriceA
Guest
Seen quite a few lectors as well dressed as slobs. Doesn’t mean we need to get rid of all the lectors, but change the dress code. Same for anybody in the music ministry. You can have a slob playing the pipe organ just as easily. Should we get rid of them too since they might be wearing a AC/DC shirt?
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Te_Deum
Guest
Even if the man was in a three-piece suit made of the finest Indian silk and his kit was of the finest gold with crystal drum-sticks, it would not be appropriate for the setting. No instrument except the human voice would be.
Which is why Gregorian Chant alone suffices. I can at best suffer a pipe organ simply for the fact that they have been ingrained in Catholic culture for centuries. But even at that it’s a stretch and I prefer the liturgy without them.
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PatriceA
Guest
You forgot to add “in your opinion.”
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TheMc
Guest
Go ahead. Just do it outside of Mass!!
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TheMc
Guest
TeDeum didn’t forget anything. That’s why the church in the past has specifically banned percussion.
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centurionguard
Guest
I would have to respectfully disagree. Seeing so many types of musical Masses to fit the desired taste of a vast multiple rainbow spectrum group of Catholics lacks Uniformity and misses the real point and meaning of the entire Mass…
The Meaning of the Mass (Part 1) - Archbishop Fulton Sheen
youtube.com/watch?v=UabMF-8uXxg
**The Meaning of the Mass (Part 2) - Archbishop Fulton Sheen **
youtube.com/watch?v=4_-4Pj5LsOA
**The Meaning of the Mass (Part 3) - Archbishop Fulton Sheen **
youtube.com/watch?v=gZx6_pXbC6U
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Te_Deum
Guest
An opinion backed by two millennia of Church history. Chant is our music, it was developed by Catholics for Catholics.
Why on earth would someone take Bob the music minister’s half-baked scribbles from the night before over Ambrosian hymn?
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purplesunshine
Guest
Again, where are you getting your information?
It’s not sola scripture to quote the Bible. Doctrine never contradicts the Bible. And the fact that popes have said thigns that seem to go against the Bible…forbidding insturments at Mass that God HIMSELF permitted at the Arc and permits in HEAVEN to me seems as if the Popes were in error. Becuase God cannot be in error.
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Te_Deum
Guest
I think you’ve quoted me by mistake, I have mentioned “Scripture Alone” in this thread. Or any thread now that I think about it… I don’t give much time to heretics any more.
However I do take issue with your post. There is a very big different between the worship of the Old Testament and the worship we have today.
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Sarabande
Guest
My views on drum kits at mass have been expressed enough on other threads. I don’t know what kind of polyphony you were listening to, but I don’t think it (meaning sacred polyphony) sounds anything like that below.
Not putting it down as I think it is very interesting to listen to, especially with western ears and only training in Western Art Music and having to make myself understand it from the perspective and whatever rules they have for their form of music.youtube.com/watch?v=fTU8mRcndRQ&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=z9Z44G6wBbk&feature=related
**That said, original polyphony, (and I know I’ve said this many times on other threads, but I think it is always important to point out to ensure that people just don’t believe that polyphony was always sacred music) before it was refined enough for the Church to recognize it as appropriate for liturgy, was considered to completely secular in sound and totally inappropriate for mass. ** It was often referred to as “lascivious”, “inciting lust”, etc. by contemporaries of the time when polyphony was creeping into the liturgy. It was, by all regards, popular secular music for the time and was banned for use in liturgy three popes at various periods. It wasn’t until Guillame de Machaut actually refined the composition of polyphony as well as the execution of it by the voices that it was deemed appropriate for mass. There is a difference from the sound of polyphony secular music to sacred polyphonic music and when we had to perform it in college, we had to learn not to sing it as smoothly and “solemnly” as we did with sacred polyphony. It’s a bit more “upbeat” and with a little more staccatto-like singing. Some of the vocal secular polyphonic music we sang was very similar in style as this and that was what the Church was against and banned for liturgy at the time.
youtube.com/watch?v=PxfiCtvE4ng&feature=related
The sacred refinement of polyphony continued on and Palestrina was considered one who really perfected it by those in the Church at the time and today.
Sacred polyphonic motet by Palestrina:
youtube.com/watch?v=9mdmco61Htk
Missa Benedicta Es
youtube.com/watch?v=lneIWuPmBj0&feature=related
Now, throughout the centuries different kinds of instruments and popular styles of music has crept into the liturgy and the Church has had to reign it in. Operatic singing, for instance, was very popular for a while at mass (it was one of different kinds of popular vocal music at the time… literally considered music for the common people and not for the intellectual), until the Pope had to put the stops on it and singers had to reign their voices in… they had to refine it for liturgy.
Now, the “problem” is with the popular music of today, which usually consists of rock-like bands, folk groups and such. Perhaps some of these instruments and styles of singing can also be refined like so many other “popular” styles of singing and music was refined throughout the centuries. Only time will tell. But we are currently in a transitional time where I haven’t seen yet, this kind of refinement, yet have been seeing more Church authorities in different dioceses or at least in individual parishes begin to request that the music and “performance” of the music be more refined or request that the instruments used not sound completely like a secular rock concert. For instance, I’ve heard an acoustic guitar played absolutely reverently and beautiful for mass and actually cantored a very traditional wedding mass (chanted Latin mass parts, etc) with with a classical guitar and violinist since the organ was out of commission. It was extremely reverent and spiritual. So, although I do believe that the organ does have pride of place and should be used (although I prefer it to be played well because when it is not, I’d rather not hear it at all - classical organ played well can be beautiful) whenever possible, I do believe other instruments could possibly be used if they can be refined.
I just don’t abide by the idea that just because other instruments can be used, that you can just play the instrument any way you like. And I only believe in this due to how the Church has handled it in the past and today. As much as I would love to sing some religious pieces that require an operatic voice at mass because there are some really gorgeous religious vocal music, I still don’t believe it is appropriate, even though when I’ve had to sing that kind of music at mass by various music directors, people have told me afterward how spiritual, beautiful and moving it was.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
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fall_fox
Guest
fall fox
I have always thought of myself as being a rather Conservative Catholic, there’s a lot about the Church of the 1950’s that I loved. However, in retrospect, I feel more involved in the mass of Vll and hopefully the revised translation we are about to start using. I don’t particularly like a guitar being played mainly because it is usually more about the guitarist performance than about the mass being said. I know it doesn’t need to be that way, but that is my experience.
At my daughters Parish they have a drum set and they also have a guitar, organ, piano, flute, and I can’t remember what else. My point is, I like it. The music is played like an orchestra, they also have a large choir that is miked and the whole thing is beautifully done. It adds to not takes away from the mass being said. It is amazing that they have so many talented people involved with making a joyous noise for the Lord
I have always thought of myself as being a rather Conservative Catholic, there’s a lot about the Church of the 1950’s that I loved. However, in retrospect, I feel more involved in the mass of Vll and hopefully the revised translation we are about to start using. I don’t particularly like a guitar being played mainly because it is usually more about the guitarist performance than about the mass being said. I know it doesn’t need to be that way, but that is my experience.
At my daughters Parish they have a drum set and they also have a guitar, organ, piano, flute, and I can’t remember what else. My point is, I like it. The music is played like an orchestra, they also have a large choir that is miked and the whole thing is beautifully done. It adds to not takes away from the mass being said. It is amazing that they have so many talented people involved with making a joyous noise for the Lord
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FAH
Guest
Please please do not ‘check out’ the Folk Group.
‘If I were a butterfly’, ‘Give me joy in my heart’ and ‘Shine Jesus Shine’ are not reconcilable with the most sacred thing this side of Heaven: THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS
By the way what will the little child sitting in the pew think in a few years time when the bright IMMORAL attractions of this world come into view. He’ll se them and then think back to his days in Church when the Folk Group rattled off ‘Sometimes I’m naughty’ in place of the Confiteor or sang ‘Sing it in the valleys’ while Fr. McLiberal encouraged everyone to clap hands and favor women “Priests”. He’ll see that and think “How lame, what a joke” “Why should I go to church” And choose the immoral path or at best be a luke warm Catholic who thinks the Popes wrong and Islam is just fine.
PLEASE DON’T PLAY A PART IN THIS
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