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mattkubes
Guest
I don’t think there were many places, even before VII, where they had a High Mass every Sunday…but hey, I wasn’t born yet, so I could be off
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redrosetea
Guest
They have mass at the hospital chapel with no singing at all…It shortens the time quite a lot
They might not have anyone to lead the singing , and they might keep it short so the staff can attend and get back to work
They might not have anyone to lead the singing , and they might keep it short so the staff can attend and get back to work
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benedictgal
Guest
I would rather have no music than bad music. Most of the music in my diocese comes from OCP. What little traditional music this “Catholic” publishing house offers isn’t necessarily the Church’s. The sad truth is that we have cantors and music directors who think that “They’ll Know We Are Christians”, “Eagles’ Wings” and “I am the Bread of Life” are traditional songs.
The Spanish hymns are just a little better. However, many people think that “Alabare”, “Entre Tus Manos” and “Pescador de los Hombres” constitute sacred music.
My parochial vicar put a stop to the singing at one of the local hospital chapels. He, too, was tired of hearing “Pescador de los Hombers” on a daily basis for Communion (it’s not even a Communion song). He uses the Entrance and Communion antiphons in lieu of hymns. Instead of hymns, we sing the parts of the Mass: the Alleluia, the Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation and the Great Amen. Sometimes we will chant the acclamations and the Agnus Dei in Latin. We will also chant the Kyrie, on accasion.
I think that Pope Benedict would have rather gone without music than the horrid junk he had to endure during the Nationals Stadium Mass.
The Spanish hymns are just a little better. However, many people think that “Alabare”, “Entre Tus Manos” and “Pescador de los Hombres” constitute sacred music.
My parochial vicar put a stop to the singing at one of the local hospital chapels. He, too, was tired of hearing “Pescador de los Hombers” on a daily basis for Communion (it’s not even a Communion song). He uses the Entrance and Communion antiphons in lieu of hymns. Instead of hymns, we sing the parts of the Mass: the Alleluia, the Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation and the Great Amen. Sometimes we will chant the acclamations and the Agnus Dei in Latin. We will also chant the Kyrie, on accasion.
I think that Pope Benedict would have rather gone without music than the horrid junk he had to endure during the Nationals Stadium Mass.
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redrosetea
Guest
I am so glad someone has finally said something about that awful mass. I was so disappointed…I thought they were going to sing Palestrina, and instead they had sort of a gospel hodge podge…I thought it was awful…
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palmas85
Guest
Music is not required in the celebration of the Mass. The readings of the Psalms, which are songs is essentially the same thing. Many Masses have no music whatsoever and to be honest I wish more did not.
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KingAlfred
Guest
Amen. I couldn’t agree more. I get so irritated by bad music.I would rather have no music than bad music. Most of the music in my diocese comes from OCP. What little traditional music this “Catholic” publishing house offers isn’t necessarily the Church’s. The sad truth is that we have cantors and music directors who think that “They’ll Know We Are Christians”, “Eagles’ Wings” and “I am the Bread of Life” are traditional songs.
The Spanish hymns are just a little better. However, many people think that “Alabare”, “Entre Tus Manos” and “Pescador de los Hombres” constitute sacred music.
My parochial vicar put a stop to the singing at one of the local hospital chapels. He, too, was tired of hearing “Pescador de los Hombers” on a daily basis for Communion (it’s not even a Communion song). He uses the Entrance and Communion antiphons in lieu of hymns. Instead of hymns, we sing the parts of the Mass: the Alleluia, the Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation and the Great Amen. Sometimes we will chant the acclamations and the Agnus Dei in Latin. We will also chant the Kyrie, on accasion.
I think that Pope Benedict would have rather gone without music than the horrid junk he had to endure during the Nationals Stadium Mass.
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KingAlfred
Guest
In any Hispanic-dominated environment, there will always be singing, and lots of it. I grew up in a German-dominated environment, and the setting was always austere.
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Sabda
Guest
Are we talking no instrumentals or no instrumentals and no singing? I’m guessing no instrumentals and no singing based on the conversation.
At our parish, which has the OF, we sing a capella. It did take a bit to grow on me but honestly, I love it now. My mother’s parish has the organ and full choir and I find that really distracting, since I have moved to my current parish. I will admit that during the summer we don’t sing as much. During the big feast days Advent/Lent and other days we always sing certain parts of the Mass in Latin.
I have never attended a Mass in the EF but I’ll admit I’m interested.
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VociMike
Guest
No, it is not required. But Vatican II says that Catholic sacred music is a treasure of inestimable value, and forms a necessary or integral part of the liturgy. And I’m wondering how many traditionalist Catholics take that to heart and strive to have music at their Masses (the ideal, as the Church clearly states, being Gregorian chant).
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palmas85
Guest
It doesn’t say that music is required. As I said the Psalms are songs whether sung or not. As far as chant goes, High masses always had it and they still do, at least the ones I’ve been too.
I wonder how many progressive Catholics take Vatican II to heart heart and strive to have Gregorian Chant in their Masses?,.
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VociMike
Guest
Not many, but that’s not news. I’d expect a much stronger effort from traditionalist Catholics, but then I hear a lot about how many of them prefer a “silent” Mass, so I wonder…
BTW, I reject the notion that having the psalms spoken at Mass was in any way what Vatican II was talking about regarding sacred music.
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JReducation
Guest
You may celebrate a mass without music in the OF, but there are certain prayers that must be eliminated when there is no singing, such as the Alleluia before the Gospel. The Sacramentary says that it must always be sung or omitted if not sung.
There are others at different times of the year that must be sung or omitted, for example: the Exultet at the Easter Vigil must be sung.
The presentation of the paschal candle at the Easter Vigil “Christ our light” must be sung and may not be omitted. The same applies to the unveiling of the holy cross on Good Friday, “Behold the wood of the cross.” This must be sung and may never be omitted.
There are other parts of the Of which may never be sung, but must be recited such as the Creed. The Creed is a profession of faith, not a prayer. Singing is reserved for praise and worship. The Creed is neither praise nor worship. It is a renewal of our baptismal faith.
Then there are certain customs that go with certain religious orders and certain religious congregations. If you have religioius in your parish, you must go with those customs.
For example, Franciscans celebrate the Solemnity of St. Francis with the same degree of pageantry and rigour as they do Christmas and Easter. According to the rubrics in the Franciscan Missal, the entire mass must be sung and Gregorian chant may never be used, because St. Francis did not allow his friars to use Gregorian chant.
I am sure that the Dominicans, Carmelites and Benedictines have some customs and norms of their own. The same would apply to religious congregations who though they are not religious orders, may follow the spirit of the religious orders, such as the Franciscan Friars of the Eternal Word on EWTN. They are not a religious order. They are a congregation that follows the spirituality of the Franciscan family. They have many of the same customs and some of their own.
Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity follow the Franciscan spirit, but are a congregation, not an order. They keep many of the Franciscan customs, such as chapels without kneelers and sanctuaries without railings. These do not exist in Franciscan houses of the ancient observance. Gregorian chant is not part of the Franciscan tradition nor part of Indian culture. The sisters still do not use Gregorian chant nor do Capuchin-Franciscans (Ancient Observance), but they do plain chant during liturgy.
JR
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Lhhs
Guest
don’t konw whether it’s justifiable, but the two parishes we’ve been to had no music and these were the earliest Sunday a.m. masses.
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LilyM
Guest
You might want to double check that, I’ve never ever ever (and I mean EVER) heard the Alleluia before the Gospel omitted at any mass, sung or not sung, EF or OF. And I’ve been to many OFs where the rubrics were scrupulously, not to say pedantically, observed to the best of my knowledge.
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LilyM
Guest
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
I don’t think there were many places, even before VII, where they had a High Mass every Sunday…but hey, I wasn’t born yet, so I could be off
The problem we’re running into here is negotiating a respectable path through minimum standards, historical precedent, and ideals held forth by the Church’s legislation. Thus, those who remind us that music is not strictly necessary at Mass are correct, yet disregard the fact that we ought to strive toward ideals - if we never make any attempt to employ the music of the Mass, we are simply not trying to be faithful to the Church or her liturgy.
On the other hand, it would be equally wrong to say that, because the ideal Mass is a sung Mass in which the music shines forth as the integral part it ought to be, we can therefore not justify having Mass without music - in other words, taking the position that a lack of music ipso facto declares a lack of effort.
My own EF community enjoys sung Mass only two times per month since our priest has to cover parishes that lie two hours apart; he has a priest who can take his later Mass two Sundays a month, but on the other Sundays must rush over to the other parish and thus does not have the time to sing the Mass. I think that sort of arrangement is justifiable. One might argue that if we really cared about the ideal we would rearrange the Mass schedules so that both Masses could be sung each week, but I think the current arrangement takes reasonable account of not wanting to burden the first parish with an overly early Mass (as father put it, especially because of so many families with young children to get ready for Mass), and also not wanting to make the second Mass to late for those trying to fast or who need to travel, visit family, etc. later in the day. When it comes to weekday Masses, I think it perfectly reasonable to omit the music so that more people will be able to attend (many can’t fit in an hour+ before work, on a lunch break, etc., but can much more easily manage a half hour).
At any rate, I don’t think the historical precedent of a parish with multiple Masses having only one sung while all the rest are low is faithful to the ideals the Church has given us. If that is truly all the parish’s scheduling concerns, resources, etc. will allow, then it would be justifiable for the short term, but the community should really be working in that case to improve upon resources, scheduling, etc. in order to facilitate a greater ability to make the music pars integrans of all of their liturgies.
I would double check all of your assertions about liturgical legislation, since I knew that this one, at least, was certainly wrong. The GIRM has this to say about the Creed:
The Profession of Faith
- The purpose of the Symbolum or Profession of Faith, or Creed, is that the whole gathered people may respond to the word of God proclaimed in the readings taken from Sacred Scripture and explained in the homily and that they may also call to mind and confess the great mysteries of the faith by reciting the rule of faith in a formula approved for liturgical use, before these mysteries are celebrated in the Eucharist.
- The Creed is to be sung or said by the priest together with the people on Sundays and Solemnities. It may be said also at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.
If not sung, it is to be recited by all together or by two parts of the assembly responding one to the other.
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KingAlfred
Guest
I get the feeling that here in South Texas, there is no such thing as a Mass without music. There is always, always, always, always, always a ‘Don Juan-type’ with a guitar ready, willing and able to jump in and start wailing away.
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VociMike
Guest
I agree entirely. While we are excused from the ideal if circumstances truly warrant, we should strive for that ideal at every Mass, and in particular at every Sunday Mass. And traditionalist Catholics, who have taken upon themselves the banner of liturgical correctness, solemnity and beauty (all good things!) will and should be held to a higher standard in this regard, and need to make an even greater effort to work towards the ideal.
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KingAlfred
Guest
I have a terrible, terrible confession to make. Please…I…I…I shouldn’t…no, really…I really shouldn’t. Well…okay. If you insist:
At a nearby church that suffers, every Sunday night, during Teen Mass, the horrendous screeching of a female vocalist, accompanied by ‘Old West saloon-type’ piano playing by a middle-aged guy with an equally horrific voice, I have often wanted to bolt across the church, gently tackling both of them, setting fire to the piano (controlled fire, that is) and hollering out to the congregation, "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND HUMANITY, LET US END THIS AUDITORY NIGHTMARE, ONCE AND FOR ALL. NO MORE MUSIC OF THIS KIND, ANYWHERE, ANY TIME, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS. WHO IS WITH ME?"
At a nearby church that suffers, every Sunday night, during Teen Mass, the horrendous screeching of a female vocalist, accompanied by ‘Old West saloon-type’ piano playing by a middle-aged guy with an equally horrific voice, I have often wanted to bolt across the church, gently tackling both of them, setting fire to the piano (controlled fire, that is) and hollering out to the congregation, "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND HUMANITY, LET US END THIS AUDITORY NIGHTMARE, ONCE AND FOR ALL. NO MORE MUSIC OF THIS KIND, ANYWHERE, ANY TIME, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS. WHO IS WITH ME?"
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VociMike
Guest
Can I donate a box of strike-anywhere matches?
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