Is a 'spark' always necessary?

[GodsGadfly]

KC,
LOL!

Well, JPII agrees that the “spark” is necessary, but, as others have noted, it can come later. My new best friend and his wife met when they were taking a class together at a local NFP/chastity apostolate. They were both in their early 30s and single. He was thikning about becoming a priest, and she’s a doctor. He was OK with the friendship but insisted he did not want to “date.” They knew each other for about a year and a half before she came to him with basically a business plan for how they could get married. The spark came after the friendship for them.

I married the first woman I ever “officially” kissed (other than a childhood female friend). However, the way I really knew was that the “spark” was different from everyone else. I’d had tons of crushes and I’d had several friendships that were never more than that because I was so overwhelmed with the crush that I couldn’t actually ask the girl out or whatever. Even with my aforementioned childhood friend, when I’d go back to my hometown and visit, I would clam up and wait to call her till the very last minute.

But with Mary, it was totally different. We met online, and, when we arranged our first telephone call, I couldn’t wait. I had no nervousness at all. Then, when I talked to her, I felt like I was talking to someone I’d known all my life. And we haven’t stopped talking since, 8.5 years later. And I’m still as madly in love with her today as I was the day we first met in person (and got engaged), a week after that first phone conversation.

So, I guess I"d say that, sometimes you think there’s a “spark” because there’s passion or infatuation, but it’s not really the “spark” that JPII is talking about.

You’ll know the feeling of the right person, if my experience is in any way an example, because she will feel distinctly different than any other person you’ve ever encountered.

 

[Tinajo]

I wouldn’t marry her if I still feel the same way I do now. But I’m not sure whether to keep going with a ‘romantic friendship’ let’s say, in the hope that the longing will slowly give way to a deeper love. I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking others’ advice.

Anybody have that kind of longing, and it turned into love?

I don’t know whether my situation matches yours very closely (and I admit I haven’t read the entire thread) but I think it might help, so here goes…

My husband and I were friends for several years before anything happened and I never even considered him as a romantic prospect - in fact, when a female friend asked me whether I would go out with him my response was ‘No, I don’t find him attractive’.

That said, a couple of years later he asked me out - which I had not seen coming at all - and, to cut a long story short, I made it clear that I had doubts about my feelings for him and didn’t want to ruin the friendship so we spent several months essentially discerning whether we should even date!

Over that period, I gradually developed romantic feelings for him - the ‘spark’, if you will - and we dated… and now we’re married, and I feel embarrassed whenever he reminds me that I didn’t feel attracted to him at first because it seems so strange now!

So, I suppose what I’m saying is that if you get on well as friends and have similar outlooks on life and marriage and faith etc., then just giving it time ought to allow an attraction to grow. After all, the ‘rest of the stuff’ (agreeing about life, marriage, faith etc.) is far more important in terms of building a life together, so I think it’s worth spending time to see if a romantic interest develops.

If it doesn’t, then you have to make a decision about how important that is to you - I’m a firm believer that if two people sign up to marriage and all that the vows entail, then that marriage will likely be a happy and successful one. But I think I’m much happier with a husband I’m madly in love with too!

Hope it helps, anyway

 

[DL82]

So, I suppose what I’m saying is that if you get on well as friends and have similar outlooks on life and marriage and faith etc., then just giving it time ought to allow an attraction to grow. After all, the ‘rest of the stuff’ (agreeing about life, marriage, faith etc.) is far more important in terms of building a life together, so I think it’s worth spending time to see if a romantic interest develops.

If it doesn’t, then you have to make a decision about how important that is to you - I’m a firm believer that if two people sign up to marriage and all that the vows entail, then that marriage will likely be a happy and successful one. But I think I’m much happier with a husband I’m madly in love with too!

Hope it helps, anyway

Thanks, that’s really useful. I guess a part of this is the enormous gulf between what I say I believe in, and what my actions show that I actually think.

I am generally quite a traditional person, which I think comes in part from my grandmother having such an important part in raising me as a child. I also have a strong sense of history, its’ weight, and its’ continuity, especially within the Church, which is one of the things that attracted me to the Catholic faith. I want to be a responsible father and have a family life that is centred on prayer and service to others.

Now, as far as those traditional values go, this woman is a wonderful example of them, she is caring towards her family, was also raised by an older generation, has strong values, has a faith that comes down to her from her strong Irish Catholic parents, wants to be a mother, is great with kids, and would indeed be a wonderful mother.

In terms of tradition, the relationship began because another Catholic friend introduced us, we have always met in public places, shared nothing more than a friendly hug, and all these things seem to point to what I say I want. We have a solid intellectual connection, and can talk and listen to eachother for hours.

Fact remains, something inside me in fact doesn’t want that kind of traditional matchmaking, doesn’t want those traditional values, wants to explore, wants to make my own path, wants to follow my desires (not just sexual desires), wants to find someone who is more than a friend, wants to find a woman who is good with our kids because of the love we have for eachother, rather than a woman who I love because of how good she is with our children. The question is, is this kind of curiosity something sinful, something immoral that I ought to reject, or is it something that’s amoral, I could follow either path and neither one would be sinful?

Just to address the poster who had a problem with my saying that both of us were getting on in years, I only said that relative to my own rather foolish decision to wait 7 years after breaking up with my ex. While I had thought that I would hold to that resolution, I don’t feel it’s fair to let this lady wait, but not only that, I don’t feel it’s right to tell God that His plans for me are on hold because of MY stupid stubborness.

 

[dianaballein]

Fact remains, something inside me in fact doesn’t want that kind of traditional matchmaking, doesn’t want those traditional values, wants to explore, wants to make my own path, wants to follow my desires (not just sexual desires), wants to find someone who is more than a friend, wants to find a woman who is good with our kids because of the love we have for eachother, rather than a woman who I love because of how good she is with our children. The question is, is this kind of curiosity something sinful, something immoral that I ought to reject, or is it something that’s amoral, I could follow either path and neither one would be sinful?

QUOTE]

It’s not a sin. This sentence alone - “wants to find someone who is more than a friend, wants to find a woman who is good with our kids because of the love we have for eachother, rather than a woman who I love because of how good she is with our children”…shows that your head and your heart are in the right place to find the perfect and perfectly wonderful wife for you. THAT is the frame of mind to have.

 

[chevalier]

All right, I will jump on the wagon and say I would like that spark as well and wouldn’t appreciate traditional match-making. I particularly can’t imagine a pattern like ten dates, engagement, marriage, there it goes. Not for me.

 

[DL82]

It’s not a sin. This sentence alone - “wants to find someone who is more than a friend, wants to find a woman who is good with our kids because of the love we have for eachother, rather than a woman who I love because of how good she is with our children”…shows that your head and your heart are in the right place to find the perfect and perfectly wonderful wife for you. THAT is the frame of mind to have.

Problem is, like I said, my head and my heart are in totally different places.

To put it another way, if I had spent my adolescent years contemplating the virtues of the Blessed Virgin Mary instead of indulging my own mental fantasies and other sinful behaviour, I know I would be the kind of person who would really appreciate the virtues of this woman I’m seeing.

Only problem is, I didn’t do that. Instead I did other things, which gave me other desires, which have warped me a bit and made me want something other than this woman.

I don’t know whether God wants to use those weaknesses in my character to reach out to someone else, maybe to the girl at university who I can’t stop thinking about, or whether He wants me to act like those things never happened and just fix my eyes on being with a woman who embodies all that is virtuous and good in a good faithful Catholic woman.

Heart and head in very different places. Not sure it’s wise for me to try to repress certain traits in my personality, but also not sure it’s wise for me to indulge them.

 

[dianaballein]

To put it another way, if I had spent my adolescent years contemplating the virtues of the Blessed Virgin Mary instead of indulging my own mental fantasies and other sinful behaviour, I know I would be the kind of person who would really appreciate the virtues of this woman I’m seeing.

QUOTE]

Not having a spark with this woman does not make her more virtuous than another woman you may have a spark with. It is completely possible, and should be expected, to feel a spark for a woman just as virtuous. Virtues should not be the** sole** defining factor in our choice for a lifelong mate.

Keeping God first in a relationship should be the most important thing, most definitely, but then the person you are partners with should also be our best friend, and they should also fuel our desires as man and woman. God designed our mates to fulfull this role for us. It’s a natural part of life to feel attraction to our husbands or wives.

 

[DL82]

Virtues should not be the** sole** defining factor in our choice for a lifelong mate.

Keeping God first in a relationship should be the most important thing, most definitely, but then the person you are partners with should also be our best friend, and they should also fuel our desires as man and woman. God designed our mates to fulfull this role for us. It’s a natural part of life to feel attraction to our husbands or wives.

Keeping God first - check
Virtue (hers, not mine ) - check
Friendship - check
Understanding - check

Surely if I let all of these things develop together and ask God for the desire to desire her as a spouse, the desire will fuel itself over time, no?

This feels right, it feels better to do this without the ‘spark’ of desire, because this way I’ll know that if it’s God’s will, my vocation for this marriage will come from Him.

 

[dianaballein]

Keeping God first - check
Virtue (hers, not mine ) - check
Friendship - check
Understanding - check

Surely if I let all of these things develop together and ask God for the desire to desire her as a spouse, the desire will fuel itself over time, no?

This feels right, it feels better to do this without the ‘spark’ of desire, because this way I’ll know that if it’s God’s will, my vocation for this marriage will come from Him.

First of all, there is no guarantee that the desire will come over time. I spent three years of my life waiting for a spark that never came for someone who turned out to be an incredibly dear friend but nothing more, as intended. I was trying to force something that wasn’t designed.

Secondly, I’m not sure why it feels good to do what you are doing without the spark of desire…you say you think this means it’s God’s will? Who gave us the spark? God did! Who gave humans the ability to feel love, emotion, desire? God did! Trials, tribulations and sacrifices are all a part of life, but please don’t define your present “relationship” as more Godly because you don’t desire her. This view is not rational.

 

[Tinajo]

First of all, there is no guarantee that the desire will come over time. I spent three years of my life waiting for a spark that never came for someone who turned out to be an incredibly dear friend but nothing more, as intended. I was trying to force something that wasn’t designed.

This is a good point - I’m sorry you had to go through that, dianaballein. Relating to my earlier post regarding allowing that spark to develop - I think it’s reasonable to allow some time for an attraction to develop, but if after a while (defining ‘a while’ will probably be the tricky bit!) nothing’s happened, then it’s probably not going to, I guess.

 

[dianaballein]

This was the point I was trying to make to the OP earlier in the thread…that just because the woman is virtuous does not make her the ONE. Many people come into our lives for various reasons. Some stay, some go. Some serve an important purpose but are not meant to stay. Perhaps his friend is very present in his life now to inspire his faith and give it new energy and focus? We don’t know. I would just hate to have him try so hard to work towards something that is not meant to. Sometimes, we spend so much time looking at the closed door, praying that it will open, that we fail to see all the open windows. We fail to see all the signs that God sends telling us something is not right, because we want it to be right.

Our Priest told this humorous story during Mass yesterday:

There was a very religious man named Jim who lived near a river. One day, the river rose over the banks and flooded the town, and Jim was forced to climb onto his porch roof. While sitting there, a man in a boat came along and told Jim to get in the boat with him.

Jim said, “No, that’s okay. God will take care of me.”

So the man in the boat drove off.

The water rose higher, so Jim climbed onto his roof. Then, another boat came along, and the person in that one told Jim to get in.

Jim replied, “No, that’s okay. God will take care of me.”

So the person in the boat left.

The water rose even more, and Jim climbed onto his chimney. A helicopter came along and lowered a ladder for him. The woman in the helicopter told Jim to climb up the ladder and get in.

Jim said, “That’s okay.”

The woman said, “Are you sure?”

Jim replied, “Yeah, I’m sure. God will take care of me.”

Finally, the water rose too high and Jim drowned. Jim got to heaven and stood face-to-face with God.

Jim said to God, “You told me that you would take care of me! What happened?”

God replied, “Well, I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What else did you expect?”

 

[JesusSaves17]

anyone else struggling to grasp what “spark” means?

Are we talking like the first time you meet, you think “he/she is unbelievable. I could see myself married to this person.” Because obviously this is not a thought everytime you meet someone new.

 

[Gamera]

Is a spark necessary? Yes. Is a blaze necessary? No.

The “blaze” person isn’t likely to be the right mate for you anyway. There’s a lot to be said for a slow simmer.

 

[dianaballein]

anyone else struggling to grasp what “spark” means?

Are we talking like the first time you meet, you think “he/she is unbelievable. I could see myself married to this person.” Because obviously this is not a thought everytime you meet someone new.

A spark is the “something” that tells you this is more than a friendship…that makes you see and feel attraction…the beginning of HOPEFULLY a slow burning ember, not a rapid inferno. We can all have platonic friends and admire them and respect them but the spark is what makes us think there could be more.

 

[DL82]

A spark is the “something” that tells you this is more than a friendship…that makes you see and feel attraction…the beginning of HOPEFULLY a slow burning ember, not a rapid inferno. We can all have platonic friends and admire them and respect them but the spark is what makes us think there could be more.

I understand this definition, but I do think it’s part of the subjective error of modernism. Truth is, most people throughout history married someone exactly like the one that an earlier poster said she spent 3 years discerning with, someone who was a friend, they married one of the 2 or 3 people in their parish of a similar age who they got on well enough with to want to live together and raise children. That doesn’t mean they didn’t LOVE eachother, just that there might never have been this ‘spark’.

I understand the Church’s more recent theological understandings of marriage, the works of men like Bl John Paul II and Christopher West, but it’s important to also remember that this is not a departure but a continuity of earlier matrimonial doctrine, based on the work of Gratian and others. The medievals had prayers for married couples for sexual performance free from sinful desire, which might be well worth reviving.

The point is, I can’t see myself spending a number of years becoming good friends with someone who I consider a romantic interest, only to break things off because there is no ‘spark’. What more is needed than a sacrificial and self-giving friendship? Our grandparents and great grandparents managed perfectly well to continue to pass on the species and the faith for thousands of years. Who are we to say that’s ‘not enough’ for today?

 

[dianaballein]

It is not sinful to desire your husband or your wife. It is sinful to desire anyone else. My dear, you are sincerely overthinking things.

 

[Tinajo]

The point is, I can’t see myself spending a number of years becoming good friends with someone who I consider a romantic interest, only to break things off because there is no ‘spark’. What more is needed than a sacrificial and self-giving friendship? Our grandparents and great grandparents managed perfectly well to continue to pass on the species and the faith for thousands of years. Who are we to say that’s ‘not enough’ for today?

This is kind of what I was trying to say (very unclearly!) before. I think if you’re both committed to marrying each other, with all the self-sacrifice etc. that entails, then even if there is no ‘spark’ you can have a happy and successful marriage (exactly as happens with many arranged marriages still).

However, I think you need to be clear about marriage expectations upfront with any girl - it’s not fair to her otherwise. Whether you should tell her you don’t feel a ‘spark’ is another question… I can see 4 possible situations in this (assuming you’re both looking for a committed marriage):

1. She feels a ‘spark’, you don’t, and you don’t tell her that.
   If you always treat her with respect and love her and show her that you love her etc. then I don’t see why it would ever matter in practice as long as NO-ONE knew you didn’t feel the spark (since these things have a way of getting out!). That said, it’s not completely honest and if she wants someone to have a ‘spark’ for her it’s not really fair…
2. She feels a ‘spark’, you don’t, and you tell her.
   She has the choice of whether to go ahead with the relationship knowing that you’re committed to a marriage anyway. However, I suspect she would feel rejected/unattractive in some way. But this is very honest.
3. Neither of you feels a ‘spark’ and you don’t tell each other.
4. Neither of you feels a ‘spark’ and you tell each other
   Not a problem either time.

This is a very tricky one, it must be said!

 

[dianaballein]

I agree with Tinajo with respects to her feelings rejected and unattractive. How could you not? “I like you and all, but you just don’t do it for me like that”. Wow. I would be running to the altar with that man.

It is a sin not to consumate the marriage, unless you are planning on having a Josephite marriage and having no children. I’m sorry. If I consumated my marriage, and there was no spark present, I would feel as if I were going through some very scary and intrusive emotions…possibly close to how one feels when they are violated. Why would anyone sign on for that? There are so many people on this earth…and lots of them are good Catholics. Why settle?

 

[Gamera]

Not only would it be creepy to have sex with someone you didn’t desire, but think how unfair you’d be to the other person, to have them stuck in a marriage with a partner whom they couldn’t please. Why would you ever put another person through that?

 

[dianaballein]

Not only would it be creepy to have sex with someone you didn’t desire, but think how unfair you’d be to the other person, to have them stuck in a marriage with a partner whom they couldn’t please. Why would you ever put another person through that?

AMEN!