Is abortion ever, ever okay?

[anthrogirl]

A relative of mine says that abortion is acceptable if a woman is raped or the child will have crippling deformities. An abortion clinic in my state is allowing abortions up to (I’m not quite sure) 24 weeks. Opinions?

I’m not a doctor but I have experience in this. There are many women, women who want their pregnancies, that suffer from what is commonly called missed abortions. This happens very frequently. My doctor says in his practice (which is large), he has a patient a week with this problem. It’s bascally a failed spontaneous abortion. The embryo growth is stunted for whatever reason and it dies. And for some reason, it is not aborted. I had an 8 week ultrasound and everything looked great. Right size & heartbeat. We were good to go. At about 12 weeks. I started to spot. Another ultrasound showed the embryo had died, but the placental beat was still going strong. The embryo was much smaller than it was at 8 weeks which meant my body had started to absorb it. It meant that the fetus has died closer to the 8 week mark than the 12 week. This same thing actually happened to me again. We caught it & treated sooner.

I had the same procedure that women who abort live fetuses have. I asked my doctor how they coded my abortion. He said he coded the procedure the same way he coded it for all other patents. He said the diagnosis codes are what varies when it comes why he does an abortion. So beware of abortion statistics. While obstectrical D&C and similar figures may be made available in some states, without considering the cooresponding patients diagnostic codes, the numbers of abortions for our purposes will be inflated. Again, missed abortions that result in obstretical D&Cs are common. Also. because there is no national requirement to report abortion data, a number of states have no survellance systems in place. Also, according to Guttmacher, only 6 states that do report the data to the CDC, also include whether or not the fetus was viable.

So what is comes down to is that we really don’t know how many abortions are happening across the county. We might have a ball park idea but even that ball park is suspect if we dont allow the statiticians access to coorespoding diagnostic data. You will hear people say that all abortions are immoral. I for one have to disagree with that. A missed abortion will only bring infection and death. There is no moral or ethical reason not to perform an abortion to remove embryonic or fetal tissue from a woman’s womb in that case. No rule is hard and fast, not even for abortion.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not a doctor but I have experience in this. There are many women, women who want their pregnancies, that suffer from what is commonly called missed abortions. This happens very frequently. My doctor says in his practice (which is large), he has a patient a week with this problem. It’s bascally a failed spontaneous abortion. The embryo growth is stunted for whatever reason and it dies. And for some reason, it is not aborted. I had an 8 week ultrasound and everything looked great. Right size & heartbeat. We were good to go. At about 12 weeks. I started to spot. Another ultrasound showed the embryo had died, but the placental beat was still going strong. The embryo was much smaller than it was at 8 weeks which meant my body had started to absorb it. It meant that the fetus has died closer to the 8 week mark than the 12 week. This same thing actually happened to me again. We caught it & treated sooner.

I had the same procedure that women who abort live fetuses have. I asked my doctor how they coded my abortion. He said he coded the procedure the same way he coded it for all other patents. He said the diagnosis codes are what varies when it comes why he does an abortion. So beware of abortion statistics. While obstectrical D&C and similar figures may be made available in some states, without considering the cooresponding patients diagnostic codes, the numbers of abortions for our purposes will be inflated. Again, missed abortions that result in obstretical D&Cs are common. Also. because there is no national requirement to report abortion data, a number of states have no survellance systems in place. Also, according to Guttmacher, only 6 states that do report the data to the CDC, also include whether or not the fetus was viable.

So what is comes down to is that we really don’t know how many abortions are happening across the county. We might have a ball park idea but even that ball park is suspect if we dont allow the statiticians access to coorespoding diagnostic data. You will hear people say that all abortions are immoral. I for one have to disagree with that. A missed abortion will only bring infection and death. There is no moral or ethical reason not to perform an abortion to remove embryonic or fetal tissue from a woman’s womb in that case. No rule is hard and fast, not even for abortion.

We are talking about elective abortions here.

Those are what are immoral.

And we have some very good statistics as to “how many abortions are happening across the country”.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Egg-zactly.

So you can see how you need to re-formulate your arguments.

PR no reformulation of what is palpable ever enlightens Pedantic-Last-Worder types.

I hope you are not one of these …

 

[PRmerger]

PR no reformulation of what is palpable ever enlightens Pedantic-Last-Worder types.

I hope you are not one of these …

Just re-formulate your arguments, please, so we can see that you were not duped by a genetic fallacy.

What, exactly, about the Phoenix Diocese website do you find objectionable as a source for supporting Catholic moral principles?

(And if you make any reference to the fact that there are pending child abuse allegation: remember my 3rd rock from the sun reference. #geneticfallacy #dontfallforitagain)

 

[PRmerger]

Really?

It’s a genetic fallacy and not a genetic fallacy?

Can you please 'splain how this can be the case?

http://66.media.tumblr.com/7127396a53b05b1bd47d4bdb28a5b8b5/tumblr_inline_my3mdeJJn71r79k32.gif

Also, would you mind answering the above question,** Blue Horizon**?

You asserted it’s both/and here. Both a genetic fallacy and NOT a genetic fallacy?

How does that work?

Or you can simply retract that statement and I promise I will never bring it up again.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

PR no reformulation of what is palpable ever enlightens Pedantic-Last-Worder types. I hope you are not one of these …

Bingooooo.
You’ve personally confirmed it then - you are indeed a PLW type where rational debate on things of consequence is really of no importance to you at all so long as you can get the last post in:thumbsup:.

Just mess’in with ya.

 

[PRmerger]

Bingooooo, You’ve personally confirmed it then - you are indeed a PLW type where rational debate on things of consequence is really of no importance to you at all .

Just mess’in with ya.

Now, if you could address your errors, or just retract, we can move forward.

 

[PRmerger]

Bingooooo.
You’ve personally confirmed it then - you are indeed a PLW type where rational debate on things of consequence is really of no importance to you at all so long as you can get the last post in:thumbsup:.

Just mess’in with ya.

Also, just be careful, Blue: it’s good for you to be here and in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics, so I suggest you turn back attempts to discuss the poster, and actually discuss the subject.

There’s no need to discuss what type of poster I am.

Just answer my questions, please.

Thank you.

 

[Rau]

A relative of mine says that abortion is acceptable if a woman is raped or the child will have crippling deformities. An abortion clinic in my state is allowing abortions up to (I’m not quite sure) 24 weeks. Opinions?

By “is it Okay?”, I assume you mean, “is an act of abortion ever a moral act?”. In Catholic moral theology, murder (of which abortion is a specific kind), being the deliberate/intentional killing of an innocent, is always an immoral act. Neither the purposes for which the killing is done, nor the circumstances of it, can render the act moral. On this point, there is no scope for “opinions”.

Of course, there are others “systems” of morality which may reach other conclusions.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

I’m not a doctor but I have experience in this. There are many women, women who want their pregnancies, that suffer from what is commonly called missed abortions. This happens very frequently. My doctor says in his practice (which is large), he has a patient a week with this problem. It’s bascally a failed spontaneous abortion. The embryo growth is stunted for whatever reason and it dies. And for some reason, it is not aborted. I had an 8 week ultrasound and everything looked great. Right size & heartbeat. We were good to go. At about 12 weeks. I started to spot. Another ultrasound showed the embryo had died, but the placental beat was still going strong. The embryo was much smaller than it was at 8 weeks which meant my body had started to absorb it. It meant that the fetus has died closer to the 8 week mark than the 12 week. This same thing actually happened to me again. We caught it & treated sooner.

I had the same procedure that women who abort live fetuses have. I asked my doctor how they coded my abortion. He said he coded the procedure the same way he coded it for all other patents. He said the diagnosis codes are what varies when it comes why he does an abortion. So beware of abortion statistics. While obstectrical D&C and similar figures may be made available in some states, without considering the cooresponding patients diagnostic codes, the numbers of abortions for our purposes will be inflated. Again, missed abortions that result in obstretical D&Cs are common. Also. because there is no national requirement to report abortion data, a number of states have no survellance systems in place. Also, according to Guttmacher, only 6 states that do report the data to the CDC, also include whether or not the fetus was viable.

So what is comes down to is that we really don’t know how many abortions are happening across the county. We might have a ball park idea but even that ball park is suspect if we dont allow the statiticians access to coorespoding diagnostic data. You will hear people say that all abortions are immoral. I for one have to disagree with that. A missed abortion will only bring infection and death. There is no moral or ethical reason not to perform an abortion to remove embryonic or fetal tissue from a woman’s womb in that case. No rule is hard and fast, not even for abortion.

Coding schmoding. That’s just silly. It’s almost as silly as saying there is no moral difference between a person slipping and falling off a building to their death, and a person being hurled from that same building by someone intending to kill them.

One is happenstance, nature, or bad luck (not that it exists). The other is murder, yet the result is the same.

No one in this topic or any topic on the subject is talking about miscarrying a child, spontaneous abortions, or anything of the sort. And everyone else knows that…

Bringing that up in serious discussion is about as clever as answering someone who asks for the Church’s position on murder by saying “the Church has no issue with flocks of crows.”

 

[Rau]

If someone was for sure carrying a child that was half-human, half-satan…even then, the Catholic church would say no-go to an abortion, right?

no idea what you’re talking about it. The Catholic church opposes murder.

 

[Rau]

…Because if the Church says it’s okay for people to kill other innocent people in battle/war, or in self-defense, or as a result of the death penalty (am I correct saying the church does not condemn these things…

The Church does not give an OK to will the death of innocents, that is, to act with the intention of killing them.

The deaths of innocents in a just war are consequences which must be minimised but can be accepted given the aims of the war and the consequences of not acting against the aggressors.

In self-defence, as in capital punishment, the person “killed” is not innocent.

The wilful and intentional act to destroy an unborn differs morally from all these acts. What all these acts have in common is a dead person. That latter fact (or consequence of the act) is insufficient information to reveal the morality of the act under the system or moral theology to which Catholics subscribe.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

no idea what you’re talking about it. The Catholic church opposes murder.

Which is exactly what DG is saying Rau, even should the fetus be son-of-satan (or even Satan himself). The original poster seems to disagree.

 

[Rau]

Which is exactly what DG is saying Rau, even should the fetus be son-of-satan (or even Satan himself). The original poster seems to disagree.

The premise of the unborn child (a human being) = “son of satan” or “satan himself” or “half-human, half-satan” (as DG said) is a premise I do not understand. Do/Can such terms describe in any meaningful way a human being? [To me, they do not, thus no question of abortion can arise.]

If they are intended simply to refer to a human being who (on some unspecified basis) we believe will be incredibly evil upon reaching an appropriate age, then it’s plainly apparent that our choice to abort the child in the womb remains murder.

And if our belief is in fact knowledge of the future (), then this scenario, predicated as it is on the impossible, is a nonsense - knowledge of the future is impossible for us humans and thus would relate to a world that does not exist (for us). Our system of morality relates to the world that does exist.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The premise of the unborn child (a human being) = “son of satan” or “satan himself” or “half-human, half-satan” (as DG said) is a premise I do not understand. Do/Can such terms describe in any meaningful way a human being? [To me, they do not, thus no question of abortion can arise.]

If they are intended simply to refer to a human being who (on some unspecified basis) we believe will be incredibly evil upon reaching an appropriate age, then it’s plainly apparent that our choice to abort the child in the womb remains murder.

And if our belief is in fact knowledge of the future (), then this scenario, predicated as it is on the impossible, is a nonsense - knowledge of the future is impossible for us humans and thus would relate to a world that does not exist (for us). Our system of morality relates to the world that does exist.

You got there in the end.
DG was also injecting a little satiric humour which most of us enjoyed but you may have missed that aspect I think.

 

[Rau]

DG was also injecting a little satiric humour which most of us enjoyed but you may have missed that aspect I think.

Actually, I was there from the start.

DG’s humour is not my style of humor I guess.

 

[Rosebud77]

Writing from Ireland here, in a situation that is heartbreaking

As I think you know, we do not have legal abortion here.

There are a very few cases in which an abortion is allowed and Amendment 8 is thankfully still in force.

Huge row in progress where "fatal fetal abnormallities "are involved. So that would mean abortion after 20 weeks

In all the debates, there is never from the politicians etc who want Amendment abolished one mention of the baby. All about the human rights of the “mother” .Never any caring .

Some of our pro choice folk are sooooooooooooooo dignified… Last week they hung a washing line laden with giant knickers out at the front of the Courthouse in Tralee…

But it is a deeply disturbing time here. Really is. As a mere incomer I am not entitled to vote if a referendum is called and after the gay marriage fiasco this is worrying

 

[Rau]

In all the debates, there is never from the politicians etc who want Amendment abolished one mention of the baby. All about the human rights of the “mother”…

The baby is not mentioned because the personhood of the baby must not be acknowledged if one is to simultaneously support “its” destruction.

 

[Rosebud77]

The baby is not mentioned because the personhood of the baby must not be acknowledged if one is to simultaneously support “its” destruction.

Exactly so. and also they never seem to think about the long term effects on a woman of an abortion Every part of her body is geared to motherhood

This has come to the for after this… and please note that the abortion mentioned took place in 2011 not recently.

irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/abortion-laws-again-under-fire-from-un-human-rights-body-1.2678849

We are heavily under fire from the UN yet again …

 

[kdbueno]

Abortion according to the divine counsels of the International Theological Commision or the ITC, pre-supposes you understand the divine mechanics of Law. In other words, the moral law binds our conscience according to the supreme integrity of divine law.