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limerick
Guest
**Would you mind explaining why it “sickens” you when people believe that men and women are not equally in charge?
Limerick
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Limerick
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limerick
Guest
**Hey, Tom, get your facts straight! My comment to the newcomer was directly aimed at her declaration that men and women are equally in charge. I said nothing to her (?) about abortion.Hi, Cecilatherese,
As a new member, let me welcome you to the list.
Don’t let Ms Limrick bother you … she comes out to bark and snap at those who profess that innocent life is precious and is not to be wasted.
You are on the right road and do not be discouraged…
God bless
Limerick**
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Abbadon
Guest
I would not kill David, but after allowing him much counsel and adequate time to consider his actions, allow him to kill himself. I killed my self once rather hastily (obviously survived) and once having the time reconsidered my position, I doubt I will kill my self again. But I believe we all have the right to destroy our selves however we choose, It is just that we make that decision in a sound and reasonable way and then feel free to smoke and drink and sky dive etc…Hi, Abbadon,
I work as a Registered Nurse in a psychiatric hospital. I regularly encounter people who have either threatened or attempted suicide.
I would do what I regularly do, and this is provide appropriate help for depression. I would no more kill him then I would kill you (or Ms Limrick for that matter as I reach over and pull her chain…) Serioulsy, depression is not an uncommon problem amongst those that appear perfectly formed and physically fit
It has been my experience that most people simply fail to see the options that are available to them - like the ‘crisis pregnancy’ issues that Planned Parenthood stalk and instead of offering multiple options and helpful counseling - they go for the $$$ and abort. There are also a lot of post-abortion (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) patients with major depression who have attempted suicide.
But, honestly, David is not the issue. The issue is us: you, me and everyone that tries to sit in life-and-death judgment on people who have genetic disabilities. What happens to our humanity as we snuff out theirs? Do you think the Nazis enhanced their humanity by murdering the mentally and physically defective? Look how they quickly spiraled down with their philosophy of death to those who they did not agree with in areas that they defined.
Ideally people like David would never have been conceived, and if conceived aborted very early. But if a birth does occur I would not advocate killing them, I would treat them just like I would treat any other being. But that’s why we have genetic screening, to prevent people being born that would have to suffer for the rest of their lives. However if you believe that life begins at conception and that at that moment a soul is placed into that zygote (I have no idea how you explain twins, chimeras or parthenogens) I could understand how you would have a problem with this, but since I find the concept utterly ridiculous I do not.
It just does not end with killing David - or, encouraging or allowing David to kill himself. Just where do you think you fit into this area? The easy - and mistaken - area is to try and exempt yourself from responsibility with something like, “Hey, he pulled the trigger, don’t blame me for getting him the gun - he asked me to!” Even the State would see you as an accessory to suicide! What a bummer, eh
I wouldn’t encourage, it is Davids burden to carry living life like that, not mine. I wouldn’t encourage him to live, I wouldn’t encourage him to die, I would just encourage him to always consider his actions very carefully, especially ones you cannot often take back.
Why on earth would anyone use a gun, KCl works much better.
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Abbadon
Guest
See not all atheists are pro-abortion."It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish
~Mother Theresa~
that is all i have to say and im seventeen
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Ms Limerick
The two facts you seem to have ignored are these:
1- The title of this thread, and
2- The words you used in responding
My facts are quite straight, thank you.
God bless
The two facts you seem to have ignored are these:
1- The title of this thread, and
2- The words you used in responding
My facts are quite straight, thank you.
God bless
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limerick
Guest
**
Okaaaaay . . .
The title of the thread is “Is abortion ever justified?” As the thread progressed it drifted a bit off-topic with the newcomer’s comment that “men and women are equally in charge”. I responded to this but certainly not at length and not with any intention of completely derailing the thread. I asked ceceliatherese (and not you) for an explanation as to why she believes men and women are equally in charge, and in her post #508 she declares, “I most certainly believe it. And it really sickens me when people believe otherwise.” I hardly consider this an explanation of her position.
Now, here is where you ride to the rescue in post #512, telling her that I “bark and snap at those who profess that innocent life is precious and not to be wasted.” This is a lie, Tom. Any life, innocent or not, is still God-given, precious and not to be wasted. The fact that I support choice does not mean that I recruit women to procure abortions. I recognize and honor the fact that, as the Catholic Church herself teaches, we are all endowed with free will, to live our lives according to the moral codes we subscribe to. Some fall far short of the bar set so high by Catholicism. I am one of those. But we are all individually, singularly responsible for our actions. I do not incite to abort, I do not advise to abort. I respect men and women enough to give them the room to make their own decisions and then be fully culpable for said decisions. When I do bark it’s because I disagree with someone here (which is allowed, Tom), and I make every effort to substantiate claims, quote sources, and be as charitable as the situation allows.
So, here you are on post # 512, quoting ceceliatherese’s position that she “certainly believe[s that men and women are equally in charge] and it sickens [her] when people believe otherwise.” You tell her she is on the right road and not to be discouraged! What else would a seemingly controlling man tell a seemingly meek woman? Fits right in the pocket, doesn’t it?
So where is your problem? I don’t understand why you’re getting all over me just because I find another poster’s attitude antiquated. And throughout the 500+ posts I have addressed the topic as articulately and responsibly as I have been able. Disagree if you will. But don’t sling your muck so carelessly. Choose your battles more carefully. I’m not your enemy.
Limerick **
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Ms Limerick,
I think you clearly articulated your position in paragraph two. All the “muck” has come from you.
God bless,
I think you clearly articulated your position in paragraph two. All the “muck” has come from you.
God bless,
C
ceciliatherese
Guest
Thanks, TomHi, Cecilatherese,
As a new member, let me welcome you to the list.
Don’t let Ms Limrick bother you … she comes out to bark and snap at those who profess that innocent life is precious and is not to be wasted.
You are on the right road and do not be discouraged…
God bless
C
ceciliatherese
Guest
Yes, I understand what you’re saying, and I think those are terrible things, but what I am talking about is that (at least in the US) women are given equal pay, the same job oppurtunities, etc.
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ceciliatherese
Guest
I should have said “when people dont believe men and women should be equally in charge”, sorry, I just noticed it now.
Well, I think that it’s a very bad thing when people think men should be the only ones in public life, etc. and women should be more in the background. I mean, I know some who believe that, and it just really frustrates me. Sorry if you misunderstood my point.
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limerick
Guest
**I should have said “when people dont believe men and women should be equally in charge”, sorry, I just noticed it now.
Dig this**, Tom!
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tqualey
Guest
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limerick
Guest
**
Women are not** given equal pay for equal work in the United States today.
"In 2009, President Obama signed the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Restoration Act, which allows victims of pay discrimination to file a complaint with the government against their employer within 180 days of their last paycheck. Previously, victims were only allowed 180 days from the date of the first unfair paycheck. This Act is named after a former employee of Goodyear who alleged that she was paid 15-40 percent less than her male counterparts, which was later found to be accurate. President Obama has vowed to reduce the wage gap between the genders: women currently make approximately 80 cents for every dollar that men earn.
****"Women have made enormous progress in the workforce since the Equal Pay Act, but the stubborn fact remains that four-and-a-half decades later the basic goal of the act has not been realized."
**
~ Borgna Brunner, "The Wage Gap: A History of Pay Inequity and the Equal Pay Act"
**
For more information about this disparity, you may visit:
nwlc.org/pdf/ObtainingEqual%20PayandJobOpportunitiesAug08.pdf
If the link fails, type it into your address bar.
Limerick
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ceciliatherese
Guest
Yea, and those are things we need to work against.
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Norminha
Guest
I don’t get it!!
I double checked to see if I was in the correct topic and I keep reading different issues.
What women’s pay has to do with IS ABORTION EVER JUSTIFIED?
Because women are paid more or less than man, abortion exists? or
Are men now disputing the right to get pregnant?:
I’m just confused!!!
I’m not sticking to the title of the discussion?
Have a great weekend! I’m exhausted trying to figure it out!
I double checked to see if I was in the correct topic and I keep reading different issues.
What women’s pay has to do with IS ABORTION EVER JUSTIFIED?
Because women are paid more or less than man, abortion exists? or
Are men now disputing the right to get pregnant?:
I’m just confused!!!
I’m not sticking to the title of the discussion?
Have a great weekend! I’m exhausted trying to figure it out!
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BobCatholic
Guest
The answer to the topic’s question is the same as this one:
Is it ever justified to deprive anyone of 100% of their human rights without any sort of due process of law?
Human rights are for all, not just for the chosen.
Is it ever justified to deprive anyone of 100% of their human rights without any sort of due process of law?
Human rights are for all, not just for the chosen.
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PJM
Guest
First of all your last judgement could be wrong.
If the mother is at risk, but not the infant, the pregnancy must be permitted to come to term, because the infant has an equal RIGHT to life as the mother.
As an FYI: I am [was actaully] "an orphan. I spent all of my formative years in a Catholic Orphans Home. I think I’m normal?
I was struct by what you said [highlighted] and I wonder if you really understand what it is that you say you believe.
Mind, intellect and freewill are all “SPIRITUAL THINGS”. We can’t see, touch or smell them yet we can prove their existence.
Because we KNOW scientifically that something " can only share what something has" and CANNOT share what “something does not have” we reach a logical conclusion that these spiritual THINGS cannot come from, that is, be generated, from human matter.
So as not to change your topic I’ll end that point here.
You are precisely correct, in that it is “these SPIRITUAL THINGS” that make humanity, humanity!
What you do not acknowledge is the origin and source of these Spiritual THINGS, which HAS TO BE be Spiritual. I choose to call this “source” God. and God implants each of these SPIRITUAL GIFTS at the very instant of conception, as they become an essential part of “BEING” from the begaining. Indeed, one cannot be “human” without these gifts.
And that friend is why abortion that has as its purpose and primary intent, distruction of “the blob” [its a baby!] is always MURDER!
Love and prayers,
Pat
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Abbadon
Guest
I would disagree with you here because in this instance my stance in utilitarian, kind of, the mother can choose to die of course, that’s her choice.
As an FYI: I am [was actaully] "an orphan. I spent all of my formative years in a Catholic Orphans Home. I think I’m normal?
No their not, that’s like saying electrons, photons, proteins, gravity, black holes, amino acids, ions and no doubt thousands of other things (especially physics and chemistry), are spiritual things.
Well actually neuroscience science shows us that a pysical brain is directly tied to mental faculties. Several studies all support this, split brain patients, specific brain partial damage and brain deformation. So I do not know what science you are talking about. Everything I understand about neurons and the brain (that is not alot, it’s not my field), helps me to understand that brain matter (some form of matter) is all that is needed for a functioning mind. So far as we know. A good example of this would be A.I , shouldn’t be to far away and that uses silicon for its brain.
I do not care much for spiritual things, unless it is in the next piece of fiction I entertain my self with. And I don’t care much for humanity, in that to consider my species special or great just because of the genetic code we are comprised of (I do think we are pretty awesome because of the achievements we have made and the awesome way in which we seem to be going). I try to use as much of an objective standard as I can and this is the only one I can really consider. Higher functioning thought, doesn’t have to be consciousness just higher reason and thought processes. What facilitates this in humans? A brain. So until this begins to form I’m okay with elective abortions, after that there would need to be serious medical reasons. In an ideal world you would never have to force a woman to carry a baby that she doesn’t want to, hopefully in my future perfect we can just grow babies in artificial wombs, ideally we would be able to control our reproductive cycle completely and without negative side effects. Then there would be no more unwanted babies.
Which god does this? What evidence do you have for your claim? When does this implantation occur? If this event occurs at conception what about parthenegons, chimeras and twins? What about all the conceived zygotes that are naturally aborted by the woman in her period for some biological reason?
I refute your claim, I assert my claim that IF their even was these spiritual things that the goddess Hel is in charge of organizing everything. She’s in charge of death, she’s also probably in charge of life. The logic is sound
.Killing 4 - 10 000 cells isn’t murder, I think sometimes it counts as an amputation or showering, I wonder how many cells die when you get a virus. There has to be something more than from the point of conception, their are so many flaws with saying that is when a human is…
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livi
Guest
Okay, I have a lot I want to respond to.
First of all, a person is a person from the moment they are conceived because God makes them one. He gives them a soul. Being human does not depend on whether you have a funtioning brain or appear human. What about people who are brain-dead and can’t think the same way we do? Does the “I think therefore I am” apply to them too? Are they not human beings anymore either? Should we kill them as we please. NO! A person is a person. And FYI, what do you call someone who has human DNA? You can’t call them anything but human. And according to the law of biogenesis, life comes from preexisting life and each species reproduces more of its own species. Therefore, human parents can’t conceive anything but another human! And that person is human from the moment of conception. At no point during a pregnancy do they go from being “a blob of cells” to a person. Such an argument is illogical and wrong.
Also, an unborn child has as much right to life as his or her mother. If one or more life is at risk, measures should be taken to save both lives without killing the innocent unborn baby. If one or both die of natural causes, then that is tragic but at least it is not murder and the dignity of both has been respected.
And freewill, mind, and intellect are spiritual. God gives them to us.
And someone made a comment about “a woman shouldn’t be forced to carry a baby she doesn’t want to” and maybe someday “we can just grow babies in artificial wombs” and “control our reproductive cycle completely and without negative side effects.” First of all, why are some people so worried about not “forcing” women to carry babies but not about the fact that innocent babies are being murdered. Pregnancy does not ruin a woman’s life, it does not last forever, and the unborn baby being carried has done nothing to deserve being killed. They deserve as much protection as the mother. Second of all, “articial wombs” would just be so unnatural they should not even be considered. God made women to be able to carry their children inside their wombs, and that should not be interfered with. And if you want to “control your reproductive cycle completely” then don’t sleep with anyone!
First of all, a person is a person from the moment they are conceived because God makes them one. He gives them a soul. Being human does not depend on whether you have a funtioning brain or appear human. What about people who are brain-dead and can’t think the same way we do? Does the “I think therefore I am” apply to them too? Are they not human beings anymore either? Should we kill them as we please. NO! A person is a person. And FYI, what do you call someone who has human DNA? You can’t call them anything but human. And according to the law of biogenesis, life comes from preexisting life and each species reproduces more of its own species. Therefore, human parents can’t conceive anything but another human! And that person is human from the moment of conception. At no point during a pregnancy do they go from being “a blob of cells” to a person. Such an argument is illogical and wrong.
Also, an unborn child has as much right to life as his or her mother. If one or more life is at risk, measures should be taken to save both lives without killing the innocent unborn baby. If one or both die of natural causes, then that is tragic but at least it is not murder and the dignity of both has been respected.
And freewill, mind, and intellect are spiritual. God gives them to us.
And someone made a comment about “a woman shouldn’t be forced to carry a baby she doesn’t want to” and maybe someday “we can just grow babies in artificial wombs” and “control our reproductive cycle completely and without negative side effects.” First of all, why are some people so worried about not “forcing” women to carry babies but not about the fact that innocent babies are being murdered. Pregnancy does not ruin a woman’s life, it does not last forever, and the unborn baby being carried has done nothing to deserve being killed. They deserve as much protection as the mother. Second of all, “articial wombs” would just be so unnatural they should not even be considered. God made women to be able to carry their children inside their wombs, and that should not be interfered with. And if you want to “control your reproductive cycle completely” then don’t sleep with anyone!
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PJM
Guest
Isn’t it interesting how human thoughts progress to denfend one’s own beliefs?
The answer to the OP is a matter of motive and objective.
Killing and murder may have the same result, but seldom the same consequences, nor the same motives.
Humanity is blessed with mind, intellect, freewill and soul by God to allow us to figure our the “greater good.” Motive and intent, are the factors that determine morally acceptable actions.
At Mass yesterday the priest reminded us “that if we were never tempted to sin we would never be in a position to prove to God that we love Him.”
There is no mere coicendence, no such thing as luck, either good or bad, it is all Divine Providence.
It seems to me that every challage has at least a possibility for a greater or lesser moral good. Seek that wich is the greater good.
Love and prayers,
The answer to the OP is a matter of motive and objective.
Killing and murder may have the same result, but seldom the same consequences, nor the same motives.
Humanity is blessed with mind, intellect, freewill and soul by God to allow us to figure our the “greater good.” Motive and intent, are the factors that determine morally acceptable actions.
At Mass yesterday the priest reminded us “that if we were never tempted to sin we would never be in a position to prove to God that we love Him.”
There is no mere coicendence, no such thing as luck, either good or bad, it is all Divine Providence.
It seems to me that every challage has at least a possibility for a greater or lesser moral good. Seek that wich is the greater good.
Love and prayers,
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