Is abortion ever justified?

[St_Francis]

Then you are breaking one of the direct orders Jesus gave:
“Judge not, lest ye be judged”.

The mother would have died long before the baby would have been born. Her heart was not…at that time, strong enough to take the additional stress of pregnancy.

Yes, I know there are such things as miracles, but once the gun is fired there is no stopping the bullet. It’s out of the barrel and heading your way." (note: not your way, personally, but figuratively).

Under the laws of ancient Judaism, which are observed by Orthodox Jews, if a pregnancy is going to result in the death of the mother, she is REQUIRED to have an abortion. Those are the laws as she was taught them from her childhood. It is not our place to sit in judgement of her or her laws. Her laws did not come from Man, nor from any misinterpretation from Hebrew into English.

So as I sit here, it is obvious to me that she did what she was expected to do based on her religious teaching, yet you did not observe the command of Jesus relative to judging someone else.

I guess you’ll never make it into the Knights of Columbus, at this rate.

And for the record, while I am now Roman Catholic, I was born Jewish and was Bar Mitzvah at Congregation Chai Odom in Boston.

Have a nice day.

Welcome to the Church I am always very happy to hear about people converting.

As to Jewish law, the references I have been able to find pointed to a situation in which the baby was so badly presented *during labor *that she could not deliver the baby. This was before C-sections, if you will recall, and in these cases, Jewish law did indeed allow the destruction of the baby in order to save the life of the mother.

However, Catholic teaching supersedes Jewish law, and is the embodiment of goodness. Remember that God teaches us through the Catholic Church; if the Church teaches that something is always and everywhere wrong, it is indeed always and everywhere wrong, for everyone.

 

[St_Francis]

Hindu morality is not Catholic morality, yet it is no less legitimate than Catholic morality. …

Morality is not something which is different from one person or group of persons to another, it simply *is. *Therefore, of all the explications of morality in the world, only one can be right (altho theoretically it could be that none is right). Because Catholic teachings on morality come from God and are protected by the Holy Spirit, they are the truth about morality.

Moral laws may pertain to all of us, but they are “written on our hearts” in different languages, from different cultures, from totally different belief systems.

No, this is incorrect. In the same way that a cat is what we call in English a cat no matter what language is used to call it, what God has written on the hearts of each of us is the same. The fact that some people or cultures teach one or more *different *moral ideas means only that insofar as they deviate from what the Church teaches, they are mistaken.

Can you embrace these differences and the fact they they are older than Catholicism, with at least equal legitimacy, soundness and authority?

Limerick

Why would I embrace error?

Why would the fact that they are older make a difference?

They do not have “equal legitimacy, soundness and authority,” much less *at least. *On what basis do they claim that their morality is the true morality? How does that compare to the basis of the teaching which comes to us from the Creator of the universe?

 

[PastGrandKnight]

There are religious groups that teach many things that are contrary to what the Church teaches. This teaching is one of them, it does not make abortion right for this person. I am sorry that she was taught error and chose to kill her child because of that error. God will judge those who led her into this error.

Just who the HECK do you think YOU are to sit in judgement of this woman OR her religious teachings, which predate those of Christianity by well over 3000 YEARS???

Since Christianity pretends to have sprung from Judaism, then you do NOT have the right to sit in judgement of either her or the ancient terachings, none of which YOU have any business calling “error”. If YOU want to sit in judgement of Judaism or the ancient teachings of the Torah, then I suggest that you first LEARN what the Torah teaches, as THAT comes directly from the hand of God Himself. The Torah today is the same as the Torah of 5000 years ago, with no mistranslations creeping in (because of the way they make new Torah scrolls). Everything in it is logically-based, and has stood the test of time without changes. The Church cannot make the same claim! After all, how many different translations are there of the Gospel? Probably a lot more than you know about!

It is people such as yourself who almost make me want to return to those teachings, and to leave behind all of this petty bickering over whether or not a woman has the right to live when that life is seriously threatened. So, for what I hope is the final time, I will tell you this:
The woman in question is a devoted Jew (Orthodox), She was seriously and grossly overweight, weighing in at well over 300 POUNDS! Her Blood Pressure was out of sight, as were the rest of the numbers coming from her blood tests. Her heart was badly weakened through the years of inactivity, and eating the typical American diet. When she went to the doctors, she had no idea she was even pregnant, but the tests showed that she was. Even her own doctor, a practicing Jew himself, told her that either she had to abort…or die. Her Rabbi reminded her of the teachings from ancient times, and she adhered to those teachings. Otherwise, she would have been dead within a month or two…at most. The baby could not have had the time to reach a point of viability. Rather than play Russian Roulette, she followed the advice of those who knew best, and now she is the proud mother of healthy twins.

She has also turned her life around to the point of having lost the excess weight, and is now a regular runner. Now let’s see, when was the last time YOU ran a half-marathon? That’s 13.1 miles, in case you didn’t know. She’s now training for her first marathon, and I’m serving as her coach. At her present rate of progress, she’ll be ready this Fall, and her entire family will be there to cheer her on. I’ll be there, too, for that same reason.

So I say to you the same as I say to anyone else who would sit in judgement of this woman: Keep your big yaps shut, and stop condemning her. I supported her decision, and so did her entire family (as well as all those who know her). She has made something of herself.

Now go and do likewise.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Welcome to the Church I am always very happy to hear about people converting.

As to Jewish law, the references I have been able to find pointed to a situation in which the baby was so badly presented *during labor *that she could not deliver the baby. This was before C-sections, if you will recall, and in these cases, Jewish law did indeed allow the destruction of the baby in order to save the life of the mother.

However, Catholic teaching supersedes Jewish law, and is the embodiment of goodness. Remember that God teaches us through the Catholic Church; if the Church teaches that something is always and everywhere wrong, it is indeed always and everywhere wrong, for everyone.

“Catholic teaching” may supercede Jewish Law for Roman Catholics, but NOT for practicing Jews!
“Embodiment of goodness”? I see very little of that from such as are condemning the woman in question, who did nothing more than properly follow the teachings of her religion.

Oh, I have been Roman Catholic for most of my adult life (I’m now 60), but I will say this: If the Roman Catholics I knew back then were the same as those in this forum who like to sit in judgement, then I’d have gone back to the Synagogue…and stayed there! If the men I came to know as Knights of Columbus had been such as yourself, I’d have left the organization immediately.

You have found too few "references " to be of true value. Jews are expected to defend their lives. PERIOD! That does not apply just to the time of delivery, but at any other time when it is clearly endangered, as hers most definitely was. If she had followed YOUR advice, she’d be dead right now, and her husband would be a widower…fatherless until he re-married. Oh, and her twins would never have been born, either. How kind you are (sarcasm dripping).

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Morality is not something which is different from one person or group of persons to another, it simply *is. *Therefore, of all the explications of morality in the world, only one can be right (altho theoretically it could be that none is right). Because Catholic teachings on morality come from God and are protected by the Holy Spirit, they are the truth about morality.

No, this is incorrect. In the same way that a cat is what we call in English a cat no matter what language is used to call it, what God has written on the hearts of each of us is the same. The fact that some people or cultures teach one or more *different *moral ideas means only that insofar as they deviate from what the Church teaches, they are mistaken.

Why would I embrace error?

Why would the fact that they are older make a difference?

They do not have “equal legitimacy, soundness and authority,” much less *at least. *On what basis do they claim that their morality is the true morality? How does that compare to the basis of the teaching which comes to us from the Creator of the universe?

You are really no different than the person who comes to my door and claims he or she has “the one true teaching” or “the one true religion” or the “one true anything else under the sun”. It is pompous. It is the claim of a braggart.

It is balderdash.

For you to say that Judiasm is “error” is wrong and a damned lie!

God gave The Law to Moses at Mount Sinai, in case you forgot. Those teachings have not changed for well over 5000 years. They have stood the test of time over twice as long as has Christianity. Jesus said that he did not come to alter or abolish The Law. In other words, the ancient teachings are still in effect to this very day.

Live with it.

 

[St_Francis]

You are really no different than the person who comes to my door and claims he or she has “the one true teaching” or “the one true religion” or the “one true anything else under the sun”. It is pompous. It is the claim of a braggart.

It is balderdash.

For you to say that Judiasm is “error” is wrong and a damned lie!

God gave The Law to Moses at Mount Sinai, in case you forgot. Those teachings have not changed for well over 5000 years. They have stood the test of time over twice as long as has Christianity. Jesus said that he did not come to alter or abolish The Law. In other words, the ancient teachings are still in effect to this very day.

Live with it.

Past Grand Knight,
I can understand your reaction to what I said about Jewish teaching in the context of some of what goes on in the world today. I realize that it probably would do no good to tell you that I have defended Jews when I see people attacking them in conversation or online, and I have seen some people dig in and do some really horrible attacking. I have defended Israel against people who are rabidly pro-Palestinian, even against my own mother. I have argued with (deleted) conspiracy theorists who believe that Jews are trying to take over the world. So I can understand your reaction to some of what I have said here given the social background that exists.

I am not going to respond to your posts anymore, as you have not engaged in debate but simply “screamed” at me. I did not condemn your friend. I was not a braggart–what I said is merely the teaching of the Catholic Church, a dispassionate fact. I did not say that Judaism is error; if you had read what I said, I specified that insofar as *any *system of thought deviates from the truth, it is wrong.

 

[limerick]

Hi, Ms Limerick,

As the previous poster told you - this is not a Catholic system. The moral law was written on the hearts of our First Parents - and, that is older then anyone’s system…

Whatever language is used - murder is universally wrong, stealing is universally wrong, cheating is universally wrong. For those societies that would decide that to murder, steal and cheat are ‘ok’ … they have this problem with staying around to convey their new found immoral law.

Again, it is not the Catholic Moral Law - just the moral law and it can be embrased by all because God put it in each of our hearts. This does not mean it can not be up-rooted … but the depravity that results tends to be ultimately self-correcting…

God bless,

And here again we highlight the difference between “absolute moral law” and free will/personal conscience. Catholicism tends toward strict adherence to the idea (or ideal) of absolute moral law; other belief systems seem to allow for greater reflective interpretation and personal responsibility in making decisions from day to day. I’m sticking to my guns on this one. I am not talking about societies that decide to murder, etc. I am referring to individuals who do so, and their individual culpability. Yes, individuals collectively make up a society, but the fact they they belong to a society does not usurp their free will.

Your remark about depravity ultimately becoming self-correcting - was this a joke?

Limerick

 

[limerick]

Welcome to the Church I am always very happy to hear about people converting.

As to Jewish law, the references I have been able to find pointed to a situation in which the baby was so badly presented *during labor *that she could not deliver the baby. This was before C-sections, if you will recall, and in these cases, Jewish law did indeed allow the destruction of the baby in order to save the life of the mother.

However, Catholic teaching supersedes Jewish law, and is the embodiment of goodness. Remember that God teaches us through the Catholic Church; if the Church teaches that something is always and everywhere wrong, it is indeed always and everywhere wrong, for everyone.

**You make this statement as if you believe that Judaism stopped evolving with the first Caesarian section.

I find this offensive.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

Morality is not something which is different from one person or group of persons to another, it simply *is. *Therefore, of all the explications of morality in the world, only one can be right (altho theoretically it could be that none is right). Because Catholic teachings on morality come from God and are protected by the Holy Spirit, they are the truth about morality.

No, this is incorrect. In the same way that a cat is what we call in English a cat no matter what language is used to call it, what God has written on the hearts of each of us is the same. The fact that some people or cultures teach one or more *different *moral ideas means only that insofar as they deviate from what the Church teaches, they are mistaken.

Why would I embrace error?

Why would the fact that they are older make a difference?

They do not have “equal legitimacy, soundness and authority,” much less *at least. *On what basis do they claim that their morality is the true morality? How does that compare to the basis of the teaching which comes to us from the Creator of the universe?

**This is a pretty narrow escalator to the pearly gates. What do you think inspired the genesis of Buddhism and Hinduism?

You said it best when you stated, “Therefore, of all the explications of morality in the world, only one can be right (altho theoretically it could be that none is right).”** This enlightened observation actually points to the fact that, theoretically, all could be right, or even that some are only partially right, including Catholicism.

I know, you can’t swallow that. In the interest of common human bond, keep trying.

Limerick

 

[TheWhoFreak]

**This is a pretty narrow escalator to the pearly gates. What do you think inspired the genesis of Buddhism and Hinduism?

You said it best when you stated, “Therefore, of all the explications of morality in the world, only one can be right (altho theoretically it could be that none is right).”** This enlightened observation actually points to the fact that, theoretically, all could be right, or even that some are only partially right, including Catholicism.

I know, you can’t swallow that. In the interest of common human bond, keep trying.

Limerick

Dang, bitter much?

There is no Divine Inspiration in Hinduism or Buddhism. True, God has implanted His moral law on our hearts but as fallible humans with free will, we are free to deny it or ignore it. We know that the Catholic definition of God’s morality is true because of what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Not to turn this into a debate on Apostolic successsion or the Magisterium, but we believe that the Catholic morality is God’s morality because that verse guarantees that the Catholic Church will always teach truth. So when the Church defines God’s morality, we know it to be true!

 

[limerick]

Dang, bitter much?

There is no Divine Inspiration in Hinduism or Buddhism. True, God has implanted His moral law on our hearts but as fallible humans with free will, we are free to deny it or ignore it. We know that the Catholic definition of God’s morality is true because of what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Not to turn this into a debate on Apostolic successsion or the Magisterium, but we believe that the Catholic morality is God’s morality because that verse guarantees that the Catholic Church will always teach truth. So when the Church defines God’s morality, we know it to be true!

**Not bitter. Amused at the cocksure attitude of exclusivity.

Guarantees? This only supports my notion that Catholics are only safe when coloring within the lines. Then** they get guarantees. Since the faithful of the Church ARE the Church, and its representatives sometimes succumb to temptations to manipulate others with lies to contain those who have a potential to stray (i.e., “The Host will bleed if nailed to the wall”), where is the guarantee that the Church will “always teach truth”?

Isn’t that a lie?

Limerick

 

[St_Francis]

**You make this statement as if you believe that Judaism stopped evolving with the first Caesarian section.

I find this offensive.

Limerick**

That’s not what I said.

 

[St_Francis]

**This is a pretty narrow escalator to the pearly gates. What do you think inspired the genesis of Buddhism and Hinduism?

You said it best when you stated, “Therefore, of all the explications of morality in the world, only one can be right (altho theoretically it could be that none is right).”** This enlightened observation actually points to the fact that, theoretically, all could be right, or even that some are only partially right, including Catholicism.

I know, you can’t swallow that. In the interest of common human bond, keep trying.

Limerick

There is one correct answer. Several people give an answer, but each answer is different.

Of those answers, one and only one *can *be correct. However, that does not mean that one of the answers *is *correct.

However, *different *answers cannot both or all be correct, only one can be correct.

When it comes to something that is a little more complex, yes, it could be that some of the answers might provide some of the truth. However, if all the answers are different, only one *can *be completely correct; however, that does not mean that any of the answers *is *correct.

And, the answers which are partly correct are only correct insofar as they correspond with the correct answer, where they deviate from the correct answer is where they are wrong.

As a *Catholic, *I understand that Christ, Who is God, founded a Church, which He promised would be protected. Therefore, everything which that Church teaches is correct.

I am not being cruel to state this; it is Catholic teaching. And it is only by stating and understanding that that I can be truly in unity and charity with my neighbor. if I do not understand that my neighbor is lacking truth, how can I help him? I would not even bother to pray for him. So, in the interest of the common human bond, I *must *adhere to the truth and align my actions with the truth.

 

[St_Francis]

What do you think inspired the genesis of Buddhism and Hinduism?

Restless hearts.

 

[St_Francis]

**Not bitter. Amused at the cocksure attitude of exclusivity.

Guarantees? This only supports my notion that Catholics are only safe when coloring within the lines. Then** they get guarantees. Since the faithful of the Church ARE the Church, and its representatives sometimes succumb to temptations to manipulate others with lies to contain those who have a potential to stray (i.e., “The Host will bleed if nailed to the wall”), where is the guarantee that the Church will “always teach truth”?

Isn’t that a lie?

Limerick

The Church as a whole, under certain conditions, will teach the truth–this has been guaranteed by Christ.

This does *not *mean that every single individual who seems to be, is, or calls himself Catholic will teach the truth; again, at any point at which any individual deviates from what the Church teaches, he will be teaching against the Church, and therefore teaching error.

Catholics get no guarantees–that’s a Protestant notion. Catholics have to run their race to the end just like everyone else does.

I am sorry that you had one or more teachers who taught you in a way that you could not understand. It is unfortunate that even before V2 the passing on of the Faith was compromised.

 

[limerick]

There is one correct answer. Several people give an answer, but each answer is different.

Of those answers, one and only one *can *be correct. However, that does not mean that one of the answers *is *correct.

However, *different *answers cannot both or all be correct, only one can be correct.

When it comes to something that is a little more complex, yes, it could be that some of the answers might provide some of the truth. However, if all the answers are different, only one *can *be completely correct; however, that does not mean that any of the answers *is *correct.

And, the answers which are partly correct are only correct insofar as they correspond with the correct answer, where they deviate from the correct answer is where they are wrong.

As a *Catholic, *I understand that Christ, Who is God, founded a Church, which He promised would be protected. Therefore, everything which that Church teaches is correct.

I am not being cruel to state this; it is Catholic teaching. And it is only by stating and understanding that that I can be truly in unity and charity with my neighbor. if I do not understand that my neighbor is lacking truth, how can I help him? I would not even bother to pray for him. So, in the interest of the common human bond, I *must *adhere to the truth and align my actions with the truth.

**Have you ever heard of a shell game?

L**

 

[limerick]

Restless hearts.

**And that is all?

L**

 

[limerick]

The Church as a whole, under certain conditions, will teach the truth–this has been guaranteed by Christ.

This does *not *mean that every single individual who seems to be, is, or calls himself Catholic will teach the truth; again, at any point at which any individual deviates from what the Church teaches, he will be teaching against the Church, and therefore teaching error.

Catholics get no guarantees–that’s a Protestant notion. Catholics have to run their race to the end just like everyone else does.

I am sorry that you had one or more teachers who taught you in a way that you could not understand. It is unfortunate that even before V2 the passing on of the Faith was compromised.

**
So, to bring this around to the original topic, “Is abortion ever justified”, how will a pregnant woman in crisis know if the Catholic message she is hearing from a person who believes it’s his or her responsibility to intervene, is authentic, or watered down, or modified, a deviation from doctrine, or just bunk? How can any of you carry the message of Christ with any authority to a woman whose own life is immediately threatened by a pregnancy? Or is the message, “Die and see what happens … we can’t guarantee you anything”?

Actually, as far as the guarantee goes, didn’t you say a) "Catholics get no guarantees … " and b) “The Church as a whole, under certain conditions, will teach the truth–this has been guaranteed by Christ”? Which statement is more accurate? And what are the conditions you refer to, St. Francis?

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

**Actually, as far as the guarantee goes, didn’t you say a) "Catholics get no guarantees … " and b) “The Church as a whole, under certain conditions, will teach the truth–this has been guaranteed by Christ”? Which statement is more accurate? And what are the conditions you refer to, St. Francis?

Limerick**

Don’t have much time, will respond to the rest later, but I was unclear on this part and want to clarify.

I thought you were referring to a guarantee of salvation/entry into Heaven, and that is what I was referring to when I said that Catholics don’t get a guarantee.

However, yes, the Catholic Church has been guaranteed as a whole to teach the truth. Sorry for the confusion there.

 

[limerick]

Don’t have much time, will respond to the rest later, but I was unclear on this part and want to clarify.

I thought you were referring to a guarantee of salvation/entry into Heaven, and that is what I was referring to when I said that Catholics don’t get a guarantee.

However, yes, the Catholic Church has been guaranteed as a whole to teach the truth. Sorry for the confusion there.

**Fair enough.

L**