Is abortion ever justified?

[PastGrandKnight]

Past Grand Knight,
I can understand your reaction to what I said about Jewish teaching in the context of some of what goes on in the world today. I realize that it probably would do no good to tell you that I have defended Jews when I see people attacking them in conversation or online, and I have seen some people dig in and do some really horrible attacking. I have defended Israel against people who are rabidly pro-Palestinian, even against my own mother. I have argued with (deleted) conspiracy theorists who believe that Jews are trying to take over the world. So I can understand your reaction to some of what I have said here given the social background that exists.

I am not going to respond to your posts anymore, as you have not engaged in debate but simply “screamed” at me. I did not condemn your friend. I was not a braggart–what I said is merely the teaching of the Catholic Church, a dispassionate fact. I did not say that Judaism is error; if you had read what I said, I specified that insofar as *any *system of thought deviates from the truth, it is wrong.

I am “screaming” at you? I’d like to know your definition of the word “screaming”. It’s true that using all CAPS is considered the same as “shouting”, but at times it’s necessary to emphasize certain words.

But let’s look at the facts…as you wrote them.
You wrote the following:
<<<<<Why would I embrace error?>>>>>

In making that statement, you have suggested that the teachings of Judaism are “error”, and I must strongly reject that idea. The ancient teachings come directly from God, and cannot be considered as “error” for that very reason. You will doubtless point out that Jesus, being the Son of God, is equal to God Himself! Yet, Jesus submits to the will of His Father. time after time.

<<<<<Why would the fact that they are older make a difference?>>>>>

“Older” makes a difference in that they have stood the test of time much longer than have the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, more than twice as long!

Remember one thing: The title of this thread is “Is abortion ever justified?”. I have provided clear documentation to the fact that there are times when it is justified, and that is all well and good. Let this be clear: I do not support abortion for any other reason! A woman is having a boy instead of a girl? Live with it. A woman might be forced to live with too much stress in her life, now that she has 3 kids instead of just the tweo they wanted? Live with it! The child is going to have blue eyes instead of brown eyes? Too bad. None of those are valid reasons for abortions! In other words, there should be some very severe restrictions on abortions in terms of the reasons why they can be done. If the mother is definitely going to die as a result of the pregnancy, that would constitute a valid reason, especially if her own religious teachings allow for it or require it of her.

Enough said!

Oh, and if I somehow offended you, please accept my apology. However, I can be fairly passionate about this issue, and hers was the only time in my adult life when I supported even the idea of aborting.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

That’s not what I said.

That seemed to be a pretty clear implication to me as well as to Limerick.

 

[Nino]

I just finised watching ‘Peyton place’ movie…this flick came out in the late 50s and supposidly concerned a small town of the late 1930s and early 40s. But the teens all wore clothes of the 50s ,the boys had neat but full heads of hair and the gals had the lovely dresses of the time…so the message was for them for one did not know that this was supposidly an early ww2 flick till near the ending when a newspaper announced pearl harbor was bombed,so the agenda was intense…and of course every one in this small village was a hypocrite with sadistic and well hidden vices…several scenes would show each church on sunday tolling their bells calling the faithful…and then it happened…a drunken lout of a step father rapes this pretty sexy step daughter…she of course gets quickly pregnant and goes to a doctor and tells him who did it to her…the doctor becomes a hero of virtue…he orders the rapist out of town or will have him arrested then encourages the girl to have an abortion!!! One watching this flick sees the agenda right on…only the pro-abortion doctor has any real concerns for the young girl and is above all…and so it goes…the brainwashing has worked…even today we see posts of ‘gee,what about rape’ etc you see boys and girls this is nothing new…two wrongs dont make a right…and child abuse is worse then ever…babies left in trashbaskets,shoe boxes etc…sigh…and satan swishes his tail in joy …

 

[awantz]

Some of you seem to believe that an abortion is OK when the life of the mother is at stake. Well, it’s not!!! I’m saying this as a woman who has had an abortion in a life threatening situation.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Forty pages. Incredible. The answer to the question is “No”. It was “No” then, it is “No” now, it will be “No”, forever. This is Truth, immutable, from He who is Truth. No amount of clever wording will change Truth. Clever, deceiving wording, Lies, however, can lead people away from Truth.

 

[limerick]

Forty pages. Incredible. The answer to the question is “No”. It was “No” then, it is “No” now, it will be “No”, forever. This is Truth, immutable, from He who is Truth. No amount of clever wording will change Truth. Clever, deceiving wording, Lies, however, can lead people away from Truth.

**The answer is “no” only if the thread is open strictly to practicing and devout Catholics and other people who subscribe to objective morality.

The world, and this thread, are not like that.

Limerick**

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Not Truth.

 

[limerick]

Not Truth.

**To what “offense” have you attached this declaration?

Limerick**

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

**The answer is “no” only if the thread is open strictly to practicing and devout Catholics and other people who subscribe to objective morality.

The world, and this thread, are not like that.

Limerick**

The answer is always “No” even if one doesn’t “subscribe” to anything and that applies to this world and this thread. That’s the beauty and simplicity of Truth. Truth is always Truth.

 

[limerick]

**The answer is “no” only if the thread is open strictly to practicing and devout Catholics and other people who subscribe to objective morality.

The world, and this thread, are not like that.

Limerick**

 

[TheWhoFreak]

**The answer is “no” only if the thread is open strictly to practicing and devout Catholics and other people who subscribe to objective morality.

The world, and this thread, are not like that.

Limerick**

Limerick, to put it bluntly, the Truth sucks sometimes. That’s the way it works. Denial is a river in Africa, but feel free to swim in it as long as you please.

Practicing and devout Catholics may have a better awareness of God’s Truth, but the Bible says that God has planted His Law in the hearts of all people. Whether we choose to obey it is another matter. Catholic moral laws do not apply exclusively to Catholics. Why? Because they are the moral standard that God has put in our heart. So it’s not a question of Catholic morality, it’s a question of human morality! The Catholic Church as a whole will never teach error, as I pointed out in my last post. This doesn’t stop individual members of the Church from teaching error, because all humans are fallible. However, the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, which means it is impossible for it to teach error. So no, saying the Church is infallible is not a lie.

 

[limerick]

Limerick, to put it bluntly, the Truth sucks sometimes. That’s the way it works. Denial is a river in Africa, but feel free to swim in it as long as you please.

Practicing and devout Catholics may have a better awareness of God’s Truth, but the Bible says that God has planted His Law in the hearts of all people. Whether we choose to obey it is another matter. Catholic moral laws do not apply exclusively to Catholics. Why? Because they are the moral standard that God has put in our heart. So it’s not a question of Catholic morality, it’s a question of human morality! The Catholic Church as a whole will never teach error, as I pointed out in my last post. This doesn’t stop individual members of the Church from teaching error, because all humans are fallible. However, the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, which means it is impossible for it to teach error. So no, saying the Church is infallible is not a lie.

**Denial is not a river in Africa. “De Nile” is a river in Egypt. Old stuff.

If God wrote morality on our little hearts, how come so few of us got the memo?

Limerick**

 

[TheWhoFreak]

**Denial is not a river in Africa. “De Nile” is a river in Egypt. Old stuff.

If God wrote morality on our little hearts, how come so few of us got the memo?

Limerick**

I don’t think you got the pun there. Oh well.

The reason so few of us “got the memo” is because of man’s sinful nature due to original sin. God frequently calls the Jews a “stiff-necked people” in the Old Testament. Their hearts were hardened to God’s Laws. This is no less true today. In our society people are taught in school that there is no objective moral code, and that all beliefs and creeds are equal. So there are many people who don’t even act morally because they are too deep in sin to know. Others don’t believe in God, and so ignore the Laws He put into us. The blames isn’t on God in this one. It’s on us 100%.

 

[limerick]

I don’t think you got the pun there. Oh well.

The reason so few of us “got the memo” is because of man’s sinful nature due to original sin. God frequently calls the Jews a “stiff-necked people” in the Old Testament. Their hearts were hardened to God’s Laws. This is no less true today. In our society people are taught in school that there is no objective moral code, and that all beliefs and creeds are equal. So there are many people who don’t even act morally because they are too deep in sin to know. Others don’t believe in God, and so ignore the Laws He put into us. The blames isn’t on God in this one. It’s on us 100%.

First, I got your remark about denial - the old saying was “It’s not just a river in Egypt”. What you didn’t get was the location.

**How come God called the Chosen People “stiff-necked” people? Was every single Jew’s heart hardened to God’s laws? I went to school for many a year and no teacher ever taught me that there is no objective moral code. Of course, nowadays teachers are just trying to keep kids in their seats without getting sliced or spit on.

Now, you and I are about through on this thread. You see it your way (and I’m certain you will tell me that this is God’s way), and I see it my way, with the mind and heart - and memo - that God gave me.

Limerick**

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

You are still living. Your final chapter has yet to be written and there may be more to this memo than you know.

There is Truth, He has always been and He will always be.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Forty pages. Incredible. The answer to the question is “No”. It was “No” then, it is “No” now, it will be “No”, forever. This is Truth, immutable, from He who is Truth. No amount of clever wording will change Truth. Clever, deceiving wording, Lies, however, can lead people away from Truth.

Sorry, but you are clearly wrong. As soon as the word “ever” is added to the question “Is abortion justified?”, the answer cannot be “no”. There can be no justice whenever laws are absolute, and I say that for all who will be willing to listen to the message. The lady I have cited in this thread was not Roman Catholic. She is an Orthodox Jew, and the laws of her religious teaching are quite different than those of the Roman Catholic Church. It is not our place to sit in judgement of her or her religious teachings. Her case was not one of mere convenience. It was a serious case of one who was a ticking time bomb in that her health was bad to begin with (grossly overweight, high Blood Pressure, and assorted other serious medical problems which meant that her body was incapable of carrying a baby to term, or even to a point of viability.

It is very easy for the hippocrits of the world to sit back in their chairs and rant and rave that she was wrong. After all, their own lives were not the ones that were going to come to an end.

The only people on Earth who are expected to observe the laws of the Roman Catholic Church are those who are members of the Roman Catholic Church. Period! This applies especially to those people (such as those of the Jewish persuasion) who deny that the Messiah has arrived.

 

[PastGrandKnight]

First, I got your remark about denial - the old saying was “It’s not just a river in Egypt”. What you didn’t get was the location.

**How come God called the Chosen People “stiff-necked” people? Was every single Jew’s heart hardened to God’s laws? I went to school for many a year and no teacher ever taught me that there is no objective moral code. Of course, nowadays teachers are just trying to keep kids in their seats without getting sliced or spit on.

Now, you and I are about through on this thread. You see it your way (and I’m certain you will tell me that this is God’s way), and I see it my way, with the mind and heart - and memo - that God gave me.

Limerick**

For the record, it was not God who called them “stiff-necked”. It was Moses. I remember the passage quite well because it was the first reading I ever did at Church: It was at my own Confirmation!

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Truth: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

Note at the beginning:

To the Bishops
Priests and Deacons
Men and Women religious
lay Faithful
and all People of Good Will
on the Value and Inviolability
of Human Life

Special note: “all People of Good Will” so this Truth revealed to us through the Vicar of Christ isn’t “just for Catholics”, and I do understand that this Truth may not be revealed or known to everyone.

In this incredible sea of humanity of billions there are billions of circumstances. Billions of circumstances does not change Truth or it isn’t Truth to begin with. We are all flawed and none of us are truly worthy. By ourselves, living perfectly within the Truth is impossible to attain and mars any concept of “our” Justice. By the Grace of God we do, however, have His Mercy and His Justice and that is for everyone and whatever He judges will be absolutely Just and Right. Abortion justified, no. Can we sympathize, can we understand, can we forgive, can we love? Yes, we must and that is also for everyone.

 

[chosen_people]

Some of you seem to believe that an abortion is OK when the life of the mother is at stake. Well, it’s not!!! I’m saying this as a woman who has had an abortion in a life threatening situation.

Well then why didn’t you have the courage of your convictions? Shouldn’t you have sacrificed yourself in that situation? Aren’t you being hypocritical?

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Truth: vatican.va/edocs/ENG0141/_INDEX.HTM

Note at the beginning:

To the Bishops
Priests and Deacons
Men and Women religious
lay Faithful
and all People of Good Will
on the Value and Inviolability
of Human Life

Special note: “all People of Good Will” so this Truth revealed to us through the Vicar of Christ isn’t “just for Catholics”, and I do understand that this Truth may not be revealed or known to everyone.

In this incredible sea of humanity of billions there are billions of circumstances. Billions of circumstances does not change Truth or it isn’t Truth to begin with. We are all flawed and none of us are truly worthy. By ourselves, living perfectly within the Truth is impossible to attain and mars any concept of “our” Justice. By the Grace of God we do, however, have His Mercy and His Justice and that is for everyone and whatever He judges will be absolutely Just and Right. Abortion justified, no. Can we sympathize, can we understand, can we forgive, can we love? Yes, we must and that is also for everyone.

The Vatican may speak its truth for the Roman Catholic population of the world, and that is all well and good. It may not force its truth on those who do not ascribe to that religion, however, and that is a truth in and of itself.
That takes care of 1 billion people, but the other 5.5 billion do not ascribe to it, and there are many who refuse to accept it’s teachings for one reason or another. Orthodox Jews are among them, and the woman I’ve been talking about throughout this thread just happens to be an Orthodox Jew. Church laws do not apply to her, like it or not, and we must accept that as fact.
Jews are under a direct commandment from God to defend their lives, and no church may change THAT truth! If anyone doesn’t like it, let that person take it up directly with God.

One of the directives in the K of C is to “build a world based on Justice and Mercy, Freedom and Peace”. It seems that some of the real “hard-liners” in this thread have no concept of the word “mercy”, and they just want it their way…or the highway.

<<<<<Billions of circumstances does not change Truth or it isn’t Truth to begin with.>>>>>
Then maybe it’s just not “truth” after all. There cannot be justice when rules or laws are “absolute”, and it appears there are some in this thread who want absolute power over the lives of others, to the point where they would send those lives down the river.