Is abortion ever justified?

[PastGrandKnight]

Well then why didn’t you have the courage of your convictions? Shouldn’t you have sacrificed yourself in that situation? Aren’t you being hypocritical?

There are too many of them in this thread, sad to say. They seem to prefer to ostracize the woman I’ve cited, who I truly believe had a valid justification for an abortion. Mind you, I do NOT support abortion on demand, and I never will. Hers is the rare exception to the case, and I had to support her decision after giving it some long, hard thought.

It almost seems as is some of the others here are incapable of thinking long and hard.

Shalom!

 

[limerick]

You are still living. Your final chapter has yet to be written and there may be more to this memo than you know.

There is Truth, He has always been and He will always be.

Done.

L

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PastGrandKnight,

Wow… at ease, mister… from what I am reading, you are starting to spin out of control!

Just who the HECK do you think YOU are to sit in judgement of this woman OR her religious teachings, which predate those of Christianity by well over 3000 YEARS???

What is being ‘judged’ is objective behavior … remember, " By their fruits you will know them…" what is not being judged is the relationship between her and God.

Also, it is noteworthy that this is not an Ancient Jewish List - but, rather Catholic Answers Forum. This is to be a discussion where different ideas can interact in a non-hostile atomosphere. Please let’s get back to where we should be.

If YOU want to sit in judgement of Judaism or the ancient teachings of the Torah, then I suggest that you first LEARN what the Torah teaches, as THAT comes directly from the hand of God Himself. The Torah today is the same as the Torah of 5000 years ago, with no mistranslations creeping in (because of the way they make new Torah scrolls). Everything in it is logically-based, and has stood the test of time without changes. The Church cannot make the same claim! After all, how many different translations are there of the Gospel? Probably a lot more than you know about!

This is just a personal observation from me as a 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus. This entire approach that you have been providing is materially different from any approach I would ever expect from a membrer of the KofC. Now, I am only guessing that you are a KofC member … and, I may be wrong on this… but the entire concept of support the Catholic Chruch is surely taking a strange route with the way you are presenting your ideas.

Christ fulfilled the OT. Christ kept all of the precepts in the Torah and all the commands of God. Christ also freed us from the requirements God gave in the OT - and, now, our directive is to follow Christ in the Love of God and Neighbor. And, as you would say…

Now go and do likewise.

God bless

 

[PastGrandKnight]

Hi, PastGrandKnight,

Wow… at ease, mister… from what I am reading, you are starting to spin out of control!

What is being ‘judged’ is objective behavior … remember, " By their fruits you will know them…" what is not being judged is the relationship between her and God.

Also, it is noteworthy that this is not an Ancient Jewish List - but, rather Catholic Answers Forum. This is to be a discussion where different ideas can interact in a non-hostile atomosphere. Please let’s get back to where we should be.

This is just a personal observation from me as a 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus. This entire approach that you have been providing is materially different from any approach I would ever expect from a membrer of the KofC. Now, I am only guessing that you are a KofC member … and, I may be wrong on this… but the entire concept of support the Catholic Chruch is surely taking a strange route with the way you are presenting your ideas.

Christ fulfilled the OT. Christ kept all of the precepts in the Torah and all the commands of God. Christ also freed us from the requirements God gave in the OT - and, now, our directive is to follow Christ in the Love of God and Neighbor. And, as you would say…

God bless

First of all, I am a Fourth Degree Knight, and wear a White Cape when in Full Regalia.
In other words, I’m also a Past Faithful Navigator. Added to that, I’m also a Former District Deputy, and served two years on the Supreme Council.
Knights are not expected to check their brains at the door when we walk into Council or Assembly Chambers. The case of the lady who I’ve been talking about is a serious one, and I have no intention of backing off from my stated position. Every medical practitioner who was involved in her case made the same suggestion: Abort, or die.
So, let me ask this: Would you prefer to see her die?
Go back and read the medical information I cited in her case. She was well over 300 pounds at the time she got pregnant. Her BP was sky high, she had serious blockage of her coronary arteries due to cholesterol.
So I repeat the question: Would you prefer to see her die? If so, then I have to ask if you learned the lesson of the first degree: charity.
Ordinarily, I would not support such as position, but in this case, I had to. My conscience is clear on this one. Jesus taught that the heart of the law is mercy. The hardline position taken by several people in this thread shows no mercy whatsoever, and no charity, either.

As a Jew (by birthright), I knew the old laws in this regard, and I had to agree with what she did. Her reward, after the abortion, was that she worked hard to turn around her state of health, and lost over 200 pounds. She is now a runner, but more important, she is now the mother of twins. Those twins would not have been born if she had gone along with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

Remember, she was not under any obligation to follow any teachings of the Church. She is an Orthodox Jew, and it is those laws that she follows.

There are times when exceptions have to be made, because when laws are absolute, there can be no justice.

I rest my case.

V.J.!
(And I’m sure you know the meaning of those initials)

P.S. As for the name of this forum, that’s irrelevant in this particular case. Jesus also said that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Not one jot or tittle of the law was to ever pass away, according to Jesus. (“Heaven and Earth shall pass away, etc etc…”)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ms Limerick,

I think you missed the point here. But, maybe a different approach would be better…?

Not bitter. Amused at the cocksure attitude of exclusivity.

As Catholics, we believe that Jesus is the Son of God - and Jesus established the Catholic Church. Initially, God’s favor was on the Hebrews, but, with the New Testament, Jesus opened the path to His Love to all who embrace His teachings. Of this - we are sure. What is quite sad - and very far from amusing - is the arrogance that rejects the Message of Jesus.

Guarantees? This only supports my notion that Catholics are only safe when coloring within the lines.

Tell 'ya what … …the lines are clear, how you choose to use your free will in addressing behaviors (coloring?) that appropriate (within the lines) or other-wise is up to you and to me individually. It will be up to God when each of us stand in judgment before Him. Following directions (like coloring within the lines) is something that serves most kindergarden students well. It also serves as a basis for them to advance in living a proper life by observing those rules that are important. “Running with sicissors…” is probably the reverse - and this often leads to a sad end.

Since the faithful of the Church ARE the Church, and its representatives sometimes succumb to temptations to manipulate others with lies to contain those who have a potential to stray (i.e., “The Host will bleed if nailed to the wall”), where is the guarantee that the Church will “always teach truth”?
Isn’t that a lie? Limerick

No doubt about it - staying with one logical thought is a real challenge, eh? Yes, we are the Church in the sense that those who are united to Christ are part of His Body. The organized or established Church - the Pope and Magisterium is the teaching authority that Christ promised would be protected from error and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

Some members of the hierarchy - like some members of the laity - chose to leave the Body of Christ. No doubt some of these members tried to manipulate others (I think of Luther adding ALONE before the word Faith in an effort to create his own religion). And, yes, the Church ALWAYS teaches the truth. Please note, it is not a teaching of the Catholic Church that “The Host will bleed…wall”

So, here is the challenge - if you are up to it… produce those specific lies you are ranting about in general - and let’s see what you have. It may be good to stick with the thread on abortion - so, from a Catholic source - please support your statement. (Ah, this means some actual research … no cheating… ) Honest, there are no lies - but, that is really for you to sincerely determine.

God bless

//////////////////////

Not bitter. Amused at the cocksure attitude of exclusivity.
Guarantees? This only supports my notion that Catholics are only safe when coloring within the lines. Then they get guarantees. Since the faithful of the Church ARE the Church, and its representatives sometimes succumb to temptations to manipulate others with lies to contain those who have a potential to stray (i.e., “The Host will bleed if nailed to the wall”), where is the guarantee that the Church will “always teach truth”?
Isn’t that a lie? Limerick

 

[TheWhoFreak]

First, I got your remark about denial - the old saying was “It’s not just a river in Egypt”. What you didn’t get was the location.

**How come God called the Chosen People “stiff-necked” people? Was every single Jew’s heart hardened to God’s laws? I went to school for many a year and no teacher ever taught me that there is no objective moral code. Of course, nowadays teachers are just trying to keep kids in their seats without getting sliced or spit on.

Now, you and I are about through on this thread. You see it your way (and I’m certain you will tell me that this is God’s way), and I see it my way, with the mind and heart - and memo - that God gave me.

Limerick**

Alright, well what ARE your views on this subject then? And also, what are your views on Faith in general?

Just want to know where you’re coming from.

 

[awantz]

Well then why didn’t you have the courage of your convictions? Shouldn’t you have sacrificed yourself in that situation? Aren’t you being hypocritical?

My ex, husband at the time, had a gun to my head. A.K.A. I was being brain washed. Regardless, I have been forgiven and now I use my past to keep others from making the same mistakes. I’m not quite sure what you are asking in your first question. As for your second question, yes and that is why I asked for forgiveness. As for your third question, the answer is no. I made a mistake. I confessed. Now, am trying to keep others from making the same mistake I did. You have sinned too. Everyone has. Does that mean that Does that mean if you sin once, you can’t tell others not to commit the same sin you committed?

 

[limerick]

Hi, Ms Limerick,

I think you missed the point here. But, maybe a different approach would be better…?

As Catholics, we believe that Jesus is the Son of God - and Jesus established the Catholic Church. Initially, God’s favor was on the Hebrews, but, with the New Testament, Jesus opened the path to His Love to all who embrace His teachings. Of this - we are sure. What is quite sad - and very far from amusing - is the arrogance that rejects the Message of Jesus.

Tell 'ya what … …the lines are clear, how you choose to use your free will in addressing behaviors (coloring?) that appropriate (within the lines) or other-wise is up to you and to me individually. It will be up to God when each of us stand in judgment before Him. Following directions (like coloring within the lines) is something that serves most kindergarden students well. It also serves as a basis for them to advance in living a proper life by observing those rules that are important. “Running with sicissors…” is probably the reverse - and this often leads to a sad end.

No doubt about it - staying with one logical thought is a real challenge, eh? Yes, we are the Church in the sense that those who are united to Christ are part of His Body. The organized or established Church - the Pope and Magisterium is the teaching authority that Christ promised would be protected from error and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

Some members of the hierarchy - like some members of the laity - chose to leave the Body of Christ. No doubt some of these members tried to manipulate others (I think of Luther adding ALONE before the word Faith in an effort to create his own religion). And, yes, the Church ALWAYS teaches the truth. Please note, it is not a teaching of the Catholic Church that “The Host will bleed…wall”

So, here is the challenge - if you are up to it… produce those specific lies you are ranting about in general - and let’s see what you have. It may be good to stick with the thread on abortion - so, from a Catholic source - please support your statement. (Ah, this means some actual research … no cheating… ) Honest, there are no lies - but, that is really for you to sincerely determine.

God bless

**The Catholic source you are demanding are two or three nuns from a Northern Virginia Catholic Church, long dead, who “taught” grades 1 through 8 from 1960 through 1968. This doesn’t take research. I was a student there. I was there in 1967 when a classmate of mine kicked one of these nuns down a flight of stairs because she took a swing at him. Yes, she was provoked. And, yes, she should have behaved as an adult.

It doesn’t really make any difference at this point. The longer I stay on this forum the more convinced I am that Catholicism is like a library where men retire with fine brandy and cigars. The emotion with which some Catholics respond to sincere questions is over the top; others are decent and patient. And you know what? It changes nothing.

I think I’ll take your blessings and keep them in their original gift wrap and pass them along to one deserving of them.

Limerick**

 

[St_Francis]

**Have you ever heard of a shell game?

L**

I am not sure how your comment relates to my post, which you can re-read the quote of in your post linked here (the little blue arrow after your name above).

 

[St_Francis]

First, I apologize for taking so long with my replies. We had a sudden change of plans which resulted in my not being able to use the computer very much, and I wanted to wait to answer your questions until I could concentrate.

**And that is all?

L**

In answer to your question about what I thought inspired the genesis of Buddhism and Hinduism, I wrote restless hearts. This is a quote from St Augustine’s *Confessions: *O Lord, Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.

IOW, because God created man for Himself, we have what you might call a search mode: we search for union with a “higher power.” Some people find this higher power in other people, in things of various types, in a specific activity.

Religious activities are part of that search, which is caused by our restless hearts.

(I’m sorry; I thought that quote was better known than it apparently is )

 

[Eucharisted]

Abortion is murder. Murder cannot be justified, ever. End thread.

 

[St_Francis]

**
So, to bring this around to the original topic, “Is abortion ever justified”, how will a pregnant woman in crisis know if the Catholic message she is hearing from a person who believes it’s his or her responsibility to intervene, is authentic, or watered down, or modified, a deviation from doctrine, or just bunk? How can any of you carry the message of Christ with any authority to a woman whose own life is immediately threatened by a pregnancy? Or is the message, “Die and see what happens … we can’t guarantee you anything”?

…

Limerick**

Your question here presupposes that the message that abortion is wrong is a purely Catholic position, like it is a rule of the Church rather than an explication of a truth.

If a person is having trouble balancing her checkbook, that is not the time to get into the logic behind double-entry accounting. One deals with the particular problem at hand.

Science itself shows us that the unborn baby is a living human being. Our hearts know that to kill an innocent human being is wrong. We do not need to go into religion to show this to someone. Thus, abortion can never be justified.

If we begin to say, this or that circumstance justifies abortion, then there can be no end to the justifications for ending the lives of innocent people. A wall has been breached. If we can kill unborn children, then why can we not kill people who have already been born? Already there are instances of people being killed for one reason or another, their quality of life is too low seems to be the most commonly used one, altho that is usually a screen covering the fact that those who are responsible for caring for the person no longer wish to do so.

 

[St_Francis]

Part 1

I am “screaming” at you? I’d like to know your definition of the word “screaming”. It’s true that using all CAPS is considered the same as “shouting”, but at times it’s necessary to emphasize certain words.

It is true that sometimes one might want to emphasize certain words, but we have other ways of doing that than “shouting” or writing in all caps. Above and to the left of the box in which your words appears when you are writing a post, there are three letters: B I U. Click on any one of those, and your word(s) will *be *emphasized.

But let’s look at the facts…as you wrote them.
You wrote the following:
<<<<<Why would I embrace error?>>>>>

In making that statement, you have suggested that the teachings of Judaism are “error”, and I must strongly reject that idea. The ancient teachings come directly from God, and cannot be considered as “error” for that very reason. You will doubtless point out that Jesus, being the Son of God, is equal to God Himself! Yet, Jesus submits to the will of His Father. time after time.

Do you believe that Christ is God, or not?

Yes, Christ does submit to the will of His Father. The reason for that is that Christ’s will and His Father’s will are the same (not that they have only one will between them but that they each will the same thing). So if Christ teaches something, it is the same as what God teaches or taught. In order for us to be fully in accord with God’s teachings, we must follow Christ, not Judaism.

In the Old Testament, what God taught was: Thou shalt not kill. We understand this fully through the Catholic Church, which is the Body of Christ; and this is a moral teaching which is merely explicated by the Church. Any interpretations which deviate from Church teaching, even Jewish interpretations, are in error.

(I want to clarify that I am not saying that people who are not Catholic are bad people; to me, this is what V2 clarified wrt non-Catholics. *At one point, *a group of people who chose not to follow Christ were rejecting the Church, and that was bad. However, those who followed–who were raised in a different religion, who did not directly reject Catholicism–do not bear that particular sin. This is, afaict, what the Church teaches.)

<<<<<Why would the fact that they are older make a difference?>>>>>

“Older” makes a difference in that they have stood the test of time much longer than have the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, more than twice as long!

The fact that a religious or philosophical system has been around longer than another has no bearing on its correctness.

Moreover, the continued existence of Judaism separate from the Catholic Church is not what God had planned. It is not that Judaism has been around longer than the Church; the Church’s roots are Judaism; it is the Church and not present-day Judaism which is the fulfillment of pre-Christian Judaism.

Remember one thing: The title of this thread is “Is abortion ever justified?”. I have provided clear documentation to the fact that there are times when it is justified, and that is all well and good. Let this be clear: I do not support abortion for any other reason! A woman is having a boy instead of a girl? Live with it. A woman might be forced to live with too much stress in her life, now that she has 3 kids instead of just the tweo they wanted? Live with it! The child is going to have blue eyes instead of brown eyes? Too bad. None of those are valid reasons for abortions! In other words, there should be some very severe restrictions on abortions in terms of the reasons why they can be done. If the mother is definitely going to die as a result of the pregnancy, that would constitute a valid reason, especially if her own religious teachings allow for it or require it of her.

You have provided an example of a case which *in your opinion *justifies the use of abortion. However, this is not the Church’s position.

Continued in the next post of mine.

 

[St_Francis]

Part 2
To me, it is difficult to reply in full to your posts, PastGrandKnight, because you have already shown an emotional involvement in this case, so I apologize in advance if I somehow misstep.

I also want Limerick to see this so I am putting a little thing in in the hopes that it will alert to to read the following.

Limerick

I wanted to clarify that the fact that something is *understandable *does not make it *right. *So it is *understandable *that in such severe circumstances a person would make this decision, but one can still say that the action itself was wrong.

For example, suppose a child had been raised by parents who were very very adamant that he go to a certain college, and he had to take a test to go there for which he did not feel prepared. He would probably be tempted to cheat because of the pressure he felt from his parents, no? So we could all *understand *if he cheated, but that would not mean that we would then all change our minds and decide that cheating could be all right under certain circumstances, would we? We would still believe that cheating was *wrong, *even tho we *understood *why someone chose to cheat *in these circumstances. *

All the above is *in addition to *the understanding that comes with seeing not only the various pressures that show up around the decision to get an abortion, but also the lack of accurate information and education about the issue, as well as the actual misinformation and propagandistic aspects wrt abortion that goes on.

I am writing this because both of you have mentioned the word “condemning.” There is a difference between thinking or saying something is wrong, and condemning other people. We are not the judges of the states of other people’s souls. I certainly do not claim that ability. However, we must be able to judge *actions. *The only entity permitted in this world to do something about those actions is the legitimate authority (parents, school administrators, governments, the Church). All we can do is to try to educate and persuade and act *through *the government (or one of the others). However, in these actions, altho we are saying that abortion is wrong, we are not saying that we ourselves, as individuals, are making a statement about a particular case or person.

 

[limerick]

First, I apologize for taking so long with my replies. We had a sudden change of plans which resulted in my not being able to use the computer very much, and I wanted to wait to answer your questions until I could concentrate.

In answer to your question about what I thought inspired the genesis of Buddhism and Hinduism, I wrote restless hearts. This is a quote from St Augustine’s *Confessions: *O Lord, Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.

IOW, because God created man for Himself, we have what you might call a search mode: we search for union with a “higher power.” Some people find this higher power in other people, in things of various types, in a specific activity.

Religious activities are part of that search, which is caused by our restless hearts.

(I’m sorry; I thought that quote was better known than it apparently is )

**Nice response. Thanks.

L**

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Ms Limerick,

Don’t like that pun … how about this one. Here’s a new way to spell denial …“D.E.K.I.A.L” and that stands for: Don’t Even Know I Am Lying! Now, on to the heart of the matter.

Denial is not a river in Africa. “De Nile” is a river in Egypt. Old stuff.

If God wrote morality on our little hearts, how come so few of us got the memo?

Limerick

If you were to spend some time around little children - you would quickly learn that they have a very clear idea of right from wrong - even when they do wrong! They do all kinds of things to make it look good, or not be so bad (like get a cookie they were told they could not have until after dinner…) And, they get the cookie - and they are the perfect image of guilt if ‘caught’.

People really have to go out of their way to kill these feelings from one’s conscience about what actions to do or not do. While much is culturally/socially determined - certain things like murder, theft and immorality (however defined) pop up throughout secular history as being problems that a particular society has addressed (with some form of punishment).

The moral law is written in all of our hearts … even your heart, too, Ms Limerick! That sense of right and wrong that moves us (sometimes only slightly) to do the honest thing.

Open that window to your soul and let the “son” shine in! (Could not resist another pun!)

God bless

 

[Norminha]

**

I think I’ll take your blessings and keep them in their original gift wrap and pass them along to one deserving of them.

Limerick

**

Well said!!!

That’s exactly how a real child of God behaves by not keeping God’s blessings, we pass them onto another human being, so that the giver will be repaid ten times fold.
I’ll pray a rosary to our Blessed Mother, the Queen of Peace, to bring the peace so desperately your heart is searching for. I hope you return my present in the original wrap too; I admit, I need so much of my brothers and sisters to pray for my poor soul.
One more thing, every blessing from a brethren is approved by our Heavenly Father.
May the peace of Jesus Christ may rest and stay with you!!

 

[djeter]

Abortion is murder. Murder cannot be justified, ever. End thread.

How 'bout this for a joyful note to end on?

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/28/wonderful-news/

DJ

 

[benedictus2]

How 'bout this for a joyful note to end on?

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/28/wonderful-news/

DJ

Vunderbar! Praise the Lord!:clapping:

 

[benedictus2]

So, you would condemn everyone who has a valid medical reason, no matter what? In that case, please read back to my earlier posts on this thread, and you will read a description of a woman who DID have justification. I will not repeat those posts, as I refuse to go through that again. Read them for yourself, and then think about the wording of the question “Is abortion EVER justified?”. In the case I described, it clearly was, as she was a medical disaster area, looking for a place to happen. She was grossly overweight, with extremely high blood pressure, and her CBC had numbers that, in some cases, were sort of off the scale. EVERY medical practitioner, including her own family doctor, told her that she either had to abort…or be dead within a couple of months, at best.
That woman is alive today, and the mother of healthy twins. She has totally changed her life. The abortion was, perhaps, the wake-up call that she needed. Those twins would not be alive today if she had tried to carry her first child to term.

Nope theWhoFreak is right. There is not jsutification for abortion ever. St Francis (I think it was) also said that we do not know that the woman would have died. We do know though that baby died. And she did not die of natural causes but because of the will of man (or woman who for that matter happens to be the mother).

And no it is not about judging or not judging. Whoever is condeming this act of murder of the unborn baby is not judging the woman but judging the act. As Catholics one of our duties is to admonish the sinners. The sad thing about the state of morality these days is we have become so wishy washy with it.

The mother killed her unborn baby. End of story.