Is Adventism Christian

[benidict]

Ellen White

Bible Truth Versus SDA Doctrine - Ellen White

nonsda.org

Notice I didnt say are Adventist Christians. My question pertains to the doctrines of Adventism. Are the doctrines taught in the Adventist Church in line with what has been taught, not only by Catholicism, but by Protestants as well, throughout Church History?
I.E. the Trinity? the Sabbath? Christology? Are these very important and essential doctrines the same? Or do they hold to a different Jesus? A different Trinity.
We see alot of threads here about the Mormons. But have we ever really investigated if in fact, the Adventist Hold to some very un orthodox teachings concerning the Faith?
Again. Lets Keep this to Adventist doctrine, and not individual Adventist. Peace

 

[Katrina5]

I read up on Adventists when I had a worker who enjoyed discussions of faith. Their focus is on the second coming of Christ.
Seventh Day Adventism, started by Helen G. White was focused on the Sabbath being on Saturday rather than Sunday.
These are among the anti-Catholic churches that rose up during the 19th century. There were several that didn’t survive.

In all my discussions with that worker, Christ was never mentioned. It was always about the day of the week, and finding meat substitutes, and not wearing jewelry.

 

[Contarini]

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Ellen White
Notice I didnt say are Adventist Christians. My question pertains to the doctrines of Adventism. Are the doctrines taught in the Adventist Church in line with what has been taught, not only by Catholicism, but by Protestants as well, throughout Church History?
I.E. the Trinity? the Sabbath? Christology? Are these very important and essential doctrines the same? Or do they hold to a different Jesus? A different Trinity.
We see alot of threads here about the Mormons. But have we ever really investigated if in fact, the Adventist Hold to some very un orthodox teachings concerning the Faith?
Again. Lets Keep this to Adventist doctrine, and not individual Adventist. Peace

Adventists are certainly a bit on the unorthodox side of the Protestant spectrum. However (at least if we’re talking about SDAs and the Advent Christian Church) they are orthodox on the Trinity. Many Protestants consider them heretical on soteriology, but this is for much the same reasons that those same Protestants think Catholics are heretical (“works righteousness”). The SDA soteriology is Judaizing, and in that sense I suppose Catholics would agree with evangelicals that it’s “works righteousness.” But on the whole it doesn’t seem to me that the differences between SDAs and more traditional Protestants are as great as the differences between Protestants and Catholics.

So I’d say that they are “orthodox” in the same broad sense in which Protestants, Catholics, and EOs are all orthodox.

Edwin

 

[CMatt25]

Katrina, Ellen not Helen but easily mistyped.

Sure they emphasize the 7th day Sabbath commandment, one resurrection @ the 2nd Coming as they find in 1 Thess 4, dietary laws, but to answer the OP question, sure since Adventists are Christians, ie, confess Jesus Lord and Savior, then yes I’d say Adventism is Christian.

 

[benidict]

Adventists are certainly a bit on the unorthodox side of the Protestant spectrum. However (at least if we’re talking about SDAs and the Advent Christian Church) they are orthodox on the Trinity. Many Protestants consider them heretical on soteriology, but this is for much the same reasons that those same Protestants think Catholics are heretical (“works righteousness”). The SDA soteriology is Judaizing, and in that sense I suppose Catholics would agree with evangelicals that it’s “works righteousness.” But on the whole it doesn’t seem to me that the differences between SDAs and more traditional Protestants are as great as the differences between Protestants and Catholics.

So I’d say that they are “orthodox” in the same broad sense in which Protestants, Catholics, and EOs are all orthodox.

Edwin

Hi Contarini. It may appear they are Orthodox on the Trinity at first glance, and this is what is so deceptive. once they have gained a convert, they teach them 1. that Jesus was in time past, the Arch Angel Michael. A Created being. 2 that at His Death, Jesus was seperate from the father, and they were not one. I dont believe either of these have been taught by the Church at any time in Her history. execpt in heretical cults that the Church has in times past denounced. Your knowledge and thoughts are always welcome. Peace

 

[CB_Catholic]

Hi Contarini. It may appear they are Orthodox on the Trinity at first glance, and this is what is so deceptive. once they have gained a convert, they teach them 1. that Jesus was in time past, the Arch Angel Michael. A Created being. 2 that at His Death, Jesus was seperate from the father, and they were not one. I dont believe either of these have been taught by the Church at any time in Her history. execpt in heretical cults that the Church has in times past denounced. Your knowledge and thoughts are always welcome. Peace

I thought that the above stated beliefs were those of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, not the Adventists.

There was a question about the validity of a SDA baptism in the AAA section and the reply was that although they hold some beliefs that are outside of mainstream Christianity, (I’m thinking their beliefs about the Sabbath, dietary restricitions, soul-sleep, etc.) they are considered Christian and the Catholic Church considers their baptisms to be valid. They hold to the traditional Christian doctrines concening Jesus Christ, including the Trinity. If they did not, the Church would not accept their Baptisms as valid.

The one SDA I ever had a religious discussion with did indeed hold to the traditional Christian doctrines concerning Christ. However, he had a belief in the abovementioned things and also was big into end-times prophecy, and reading the works of Ellen G White, although he said that she is not considered “infallible”, and if anything she wrote contradicted the Scriptures, it was the Scriptures that were to be believed.

That is all I know about the SDA’s, although there are other Adventist sects and even 7th day Baptists. But we should not confuse them with the JW’s and other sects who deny traditional Christian doctrine concerning Christ.

 

[Timothy17]

There is also a heavy rash and even emphasis on anti-Catholicism in the SDA. They still actively believe that the Catholic Church is, was, and always will be (until the end of time) the great persecutor of the righteous and saints, the “whore of babylon,” etc. They imagine we deify the saints and the Blessed Virgin, and ascribe infinite, absolute and autocratic powers to the Pope or Magisterium, etc. Adventism is extremely anti-Catholic, and if one is not anti-Catholic, it is owing to personal beliefs outside of their peculiar religious teachings. Their communion meal, unlike mainstream Protestantism, is extremely infrequent (if I remember, but once or twice a year) and heavily emphasizes the memorial characteristic of it. Like Mormons, SDA’s are forbidden to smoke or drink any alcohol, claiming the Bible condemns this outright. They ascribe virtually no authority to the Church whatsoever.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[benidict]

I thought that the above stated beliefs were those of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, not the Adventists.

There was a question about the validity of a SDA baptism in the AAA section and the reply was that although they hold some beliefs that are outside of mainstream Christianity, (I’m thinking their beliefs about the Sabbath, dietary restricitions, soul-sleep, etc.) they are considered Christian and the Catholic Church considers their baptisms to be valid. They hold to the traditional Christian doctrines concening Jesus Christ, including the Trinity. If they did not, the Church would not accept their Baptisms as valid.

The one SDA I ever had a religious discussion with did indeed hold to the traditional Christian doctrines concerning Christ. However, he had a belief in the abovementioned things and also was big into end-times prophecy, and reading the works of Ellen G White, although he said that she is not considered “infallible”, and if anything she wrote contradicted the Scriptures, it was the Scriptures that were to be believed.

That is all I know about the SDA’s, although there are other Adventist sects and even 7th day Baptists. But we should not confuse them with the JW’s and other sects who deny traditional Christian doctrine concerning Christ.

Hi CB. The teaching of Michael is found in both Adventism and the Jehovahs witnesses. The JWs got this belief from the Adventist. Along with the doctrine of Soul Sleep, and the annihilation of the wicked at the ressurection. Given that they believe Jesus was the Arch Angel Michael before being born of the Blessed Mother, and seeing how they divide the Trinity by stating that Jesus gave up his divinity when He took on flesh, and seeing how they believe He was seperated from His Father the three days in the tomb. I contend they worship a different Jesus, than the one Portrayed by the apostles and the Church for over 2000 years. Peace

 

[CB_Catholic]

Hi CB. The teaching of Michael is found in both Adventism and the Jehovahs witnesses. The JWs got this belief from the Adventist. Along with the doctrine of Soul Sleep, and the annihilation of the wicked at the ressurection. Given that they believe Jesus was the Arch Angel Michael before being born of the Blessed Mother, and seeing how they divide the Trinity by stating that Jesus gave up his divinity when He took on flesh, and seeing how they believe He was seperated from His Father the three days in the tomb. I contend they worship a different Jesus, than the one Portrayed by the apostles and the Church for over 2000 years. Peace

Like I said, I have discussed beliefs with one SDA and his understanding of the Trinity was the traditional one. I went to their official website and I saw no reference to the Archangel Michael, nor anything about Jesus giving up his divinity when he took on flesh. However Wikipedia (I know, not always the best source) discusses this quite at length and outlines the development of their Trinitarian doctrine. It appears that modern Adventists accept the standard Trinitarian beliefs. That is all I can say because I am no expert on the subject, but the CAF apologist did say that the Church accepts their baptisms as valid.

If there is an SDA on these forums or one who used to be SDA, perhaps they could enlighten us as to what modern Adventists believe about the Trinity and the nature of Christ.

 

[CMatt25]

There is also a heavy rash and even emphasis on anti-Catholicism in the SDA. They still actively believe that the Catholic Church is, was, and always will be (until the end of time) the great persecutor of the righteous and saints, the “whore of babylon,” etc. They imagine we deify the saints and the Blessed Virgin, and ascribe infinite, absolute and autocratic powers to the Pope or Magisterium, etc. Adventism is extremely anti-Catholic, and if one is not anti-Catholic, it is owing to personal beliefs outside of their peculiar religious teachings. Their communion meal, unlike mainstream Protestantism, is extremely infrequent (if I remember, but once or twice a year) and heavily emphasizes the memorial characteristic of it. Like Mormons, SDA’s are forbidden to smoke or drink any alcohol, claiming the Bible condemns this outright. They ascribe virtually no authority to the Church whatsoever.

Pax Christi,
Tim

They may be anti Catholicism but from my experience they do not harbor ill feelings against the individual Catholic. And a friend’s SDA church has Communion each quarter. No more infrequent than some other Christians.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi CB. The teaching of Michael is found in both Adventism and the Jehovahs witnesses. The JWs got this belief from the Adventist. Along with the doctrine of Soul Sleep, and the annihilation of the wicked at the ressurection. Given that they believe Jesus was the Arch Angel Michael before being born of the Blessed Mother, and seeing how they divide the Trinity by stating that Jesus gave up his divinity when He took on flesh, and seeing how they believe He was seperated from His Father the three days in the tomb. I contend they worship a different Jesus, than the one Portrayed by the apostles and the Church for over 2000 years. Peace

Odd to me then that the Catholic Church would accept their baptisms.

 

[Contarini]

Hi Contarini. It may appear they are Orthodox on the Trinity at first glance, and this is what is so deceptive. once they have gained a convert, they teach them 1. that Jesus was in time past, the Arch Angel Michael. A Created being. 2 that at His Death, Jesus was seperate from the father, and they were not one. I dont believe either of these have been taught by the Church at any time in Her history. execpt in heretical cults that the Church has in times past denounced. Your knowledge and thoughts are always welcome. Peace

I don’t have a lot of knowledge about this. I would like to see evidence that this is what they teach converts. I am highly suspicious of such claims, because it’s easy to claim that some other group has a “secret” teaching–how can they refute it?

It seems more likely that, as other posters have suggested, these ideas were prevalent in the early days of Adventism. Non-mainstream groups in American Protestantism have a tendency to move back toward the mainstream over time. The WWCoG, which certainly was a heretical group of Adventist origin, did something like this in the 90s, embracing more standard evangelical Protestant theology and, I believe, precipitating a schism. Even the Mormons have tried to back away from some of their more extreme claims. And of course, if it comes to that, Catholics tend to interpret their more controversial teachings in more moderate ways than they used to as well–and anti-Catholics are quick to see this as deceptive rather than a genuine development. (Note: I’m not claiming that Catholics are in the same boat as Adventists, only pointing out that conservative Protestants see a similar pattern and the more paranoid ones make the same kinds of conspiratorial claims about Catholics that you are making about Adventists.)

But I’d like to see more evidence for these beliefs. The early Adventists were not theologically sophisticated and no doubt fell into various heresies. If the modern SDA denomination teaches orthodox belief about the Trinity, I’m going to accept that at face value and not hold the errors of their ancestors against them.

 

[benidict]

Like I said, I have discussed beliefs with one SDA and his understanding of the Trinity was the traditional one. I went to their official website and I saw no reference to the Archangel Michael, nor anything about Jesus giving up his divinity when he took on flesh. However Wikipedia (I know, not always the best source) discusses this quite at length and outlines the development of their Trinitarian doctrine. It appears that modern Adventists accept the standard Trinitarian beliefs. That is all I can say because I am no expert on the subject, but the CAF apologist did say that the Church accepts their baptisms as valid.

If there is an SDA on these forums or one who used to be SDA, perhaps they could enlighten us as to what modern Adventists believe about the Trinity and the nature of Christ.

I wish they would. there are Adventist here, who do hold to the belief that Jesus was the Arch angel Michael, and that Jesus gave up his divinity. I can get you the post for the second if you would like. but I am not going to call out Adventist by name. It may not be in their hand book for membership, but the writings of their founder, are chock full of this. including many references to the “Watchers.” who were giving her, her messages. I contend if this is the case, then E.G. White was getting her “enlightend” view from fallen angels. They do hold her teachings to be Inspired Teaching, so her writings also can be considered a doctrinal source. Peace

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Adventists are certainly a bit on the unorthodox side of the Protestant spectrum. However (at least if we’re talking about SDAs and the Advent Christian Church) they are orthodox on the Trinity. Many Protestants consider them heretical on soteriology, but this is for much the same reasons that those same Protestants think Catholics are heretical (“works righteousness”). The SDA soteriology is Judaizing, and in that sense I suppose Catholics would agree with evangelicals that it’s “works righteousness.” But on the whole it doesn’t seem to me that the differences between SDAs and more traditional Protestants are as great as the differences between Protestants and Catholics.

So I’d say that they are “orthodox” in the same broad sense in which Protestants, Catholics, and EOs are all orthodox.

Edwin

Mainstream SDAs are not really orthodox on the Trinity. They do a good song and dance to make it LOOK like they are, but trust me they are not. They do not believe that the Three Persons of the Trinity are of the same substance. They believe that they are three entities that are one in purpose, will and intent, hence three gods in one Godhead, not three Persons of one substance in the One Triune God.

 

[Contarini]

Mainstream SDAs are not really orthodox on the Trinity. They do a good song and dance to make it LOOK like they are, but trust me they are not. They do not believe that the Three Persons of the Trinity are of the same substance. They believe that they are three entities that are one in purpose, will and intent, hence three gods in one Godhead, not three Persons of one substance in the One Triune God.

I found this article, which says that the early SDAs did in fact reject the Trinity, though it claims that Ellen White accepted Jesus’ eternal deity. It’s striking that the two Adventist figures mentioned from the 1890s (Waggoner and Smith) both almost exactly recapitulated the position of Arius! I was not aware of this. However, according to the article the SDA position has become more Trinitarian over time. Whether it is presently orthodox remains dubious, though–the article distinguishes between the “Biblical” and the “Catholic” view of the Trinity. So you may well be right–can you suggest more sources?

My initial suspicion that the SDAs have moved in a relatively more orthodox direction over time is confirmed, at any rate. This is a striking pattern which we can see in the WWCOG, the Mormons, and the “Campbellite” Restorationists (who also had some anti-Trinitarian elements initially). In other words, you have groups starting out to “restore” true Christianity, and then over time moving back toward a more traditional position.

Edwin

 

[Marsha_Adams]

So you may well be right–can you suggest more sources?
Edwin

No, I’m sorry, I can’t suggest any sources. I did not know that SDAs were not truly trinitarian until I took a course on the Catechism through the Catholic Distance University. One of the ways that SDAism gets away with appearing to be Trinitarian is that if you ask them, are you Trinitarian? They say, “oh yes, we believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” And you say, “Oh, well, that’s good then.” Never realizing that their understanding of the Trinity is very much different than the Church’s teaching.

 

[Contarini]

No, I’m sorry, I can’t suggest any sources. I did not know that SDAs were not truly trinitarian until I took a course on the Catechism through the Catholic Distance University. One of the ways that SDAism gets away with appearing to be Trinitarian is that if you ask them, are you Trinitarian? They say, “oh yes, we believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” And you say, “Oh, well, that’s good then.” Never realizing that their understanding of the Trinity is very much different than the Church’s teaching.

Well, the article I cited seems to back you up, except for your implication that the SDAs try to pass themselves off as more orthodox than they are. If anything, it seems to be the other way round–they are afraid of anything that looks “Catholic.” So I guess I want to believe that maybe they are more orthodox than they think they are. . . .

Edwin

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Well, the article I cited seems to back you up, except for your implication that the SDAs try to pass themselves off as more orthodox than they are. If anything, it seems to be the other way round–they are afraid of anything that looks “Catholic.” So I guess I want to believe that maybe they are more orthodox than they think they are. . . .

Edwin

The SDAs try to pass themselves off as “mainstream” Christian because they want to avoid being labelled as a cult or tossed in with the JWs and the LDS.

You are right that they are afraid of anything that looks “Catholic”, but since a lot of Protestant religions are anti-Catholic that doesn’t bother the SDAs.

The SDAs do believe that Jesus and Michael are the same person, rather like the President and the Commander-in-Chief are the same person. They have never said that Michael is a created being.

 

[CMatt25]

The SDAs try to pass themselves off as “mainstream” Christian because they want to avoid being labelled as a cult or tossed in with the JWs and the LDS.

You are right that they are afraid of anything that looks “Catholic”, but since a lot of Protestant religions are anti-Catholic that doesn’t bother the SDAs.

The SDAs do believe that Jesus and Michael are the same person, rather like the President and the Commander-in-Chief are the same person. They have never said that Michael is a created being.

Cult is a funny word. There are some who might consider the Catholic faith cultish. But my question is if the SDAs have this belief in the Trinity which is incompatible with Catholic teaching, then why does your church accept their Baptisms?

 

[benidict]

Mainstream SDAs are not really orthodox on the Trinity. They do a good song and dance to make it LOOK like they are, but trust me they are not. They do not believe that the Three Persons of the Trinity are of the same substance. They believe that they are three entities that are one in purpose, will and intent, hence three gods in one Godhead, not three Persons of one substance in the One Triune God.

Hi Marsha. I thank God you showed up here. I was beginning to doubt myself and wonder if in fact I had misinterpreted what had been said by some Adventist on this forum. I would hate to do that. It is good to hear from a former Adventist. Quick question. Do the Adventist wait until they have a convert before they teach the more shall we say, Unique Christological doctrines they hold? I much Appreciate you being here. Peace and prayers for you.