If they are brothers and sisters in Christ then their rule is scripture which defines homosexual acts as sin.:banghead: I can understand an atheist not accepting this but for a Christian to want to find reason outside of scripture is sheer lunacy.i have spent three years on internet reading any explanation i could find, as to the reasoning that says homosexuality is a sin. in every single case the reasoning that was presented never held up to any scrutiny.
in additon, i found more and more scriptures that supported an understanding that the holy spirit never declared homosexuality a sin…
i listened to those of my church who supported the sin theory. everytime they spoke…their words never came from spirit of love and fellowship…which 1john1 says is a part of walking in the light…
every single time the words for the support of it being a sin, were spoken, they were spoken in a spirit of fear, contempt, and disgust. if the spirit that condemns homosexuality is not a spirit of fellowship and love then how can it be part of christ.
i fact i challenge you to try to share your sin belief with a homosexual in the name of fellowship. it cant be done. and the reason is, that the spirit that would hold onto that interpretation has no concern for the homosexual, only with supporting a belief system
i was amazed that most of those who supported the sin theory were totally unfamiliar with scriptures that referred to homosexuality.
the more i study scripture i am convinced that the holy spirit never declared homosexuality a sin, only that man did.
2 thess says test everything
when i became convinced from studying scripture that the holy spirit was not saying that homosexuality was a sin. i began attending a gay church to test my understanding and see if their was any spirit in the orientation that came against the the fruit of the spirit or against christ. i saw no sin. the only thing i encountered was the depth of my own homophobia.
i am convinced that our witness is our test. witness is acknowledging in ones heart the spirit we encounter as we go about our daily lives. knowing that our battle is not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. it is why daily we put on the armor of god. the acknowledgement is apart from our belief systems…the best example i can give you is peter in acts 10.
my appeal is for those who believe in the sin interpretation, is to test their understanding by engaging in fellowship with their gay brothers and sisters in christ who share their same inheritance. to see if one they fellowship with is filled with the shame based lust of romans or in anyway they witness any spirit in the orientation homosexuality that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ.
it was a poor chice of words what i meant was" embrace the fruit of the spirit as do heterosexualsFrom Original Post
This is exactly why it is wrong. It mimics what is good. Anything that mimics what is good is not good, it is an imitation. That is basically what all evils in this world are, imitations trying to pass themselves off as good, perversions by their very nature. Do we embrace the counterfeit good or pursue the real thing? If God exists and is unchanging, and goodness and truth are absolute with him as their source, then anything that alters or mimics this truth is incompatible with it. We must yield to the truth of what is good and abandon our desires to alter it, mimic it, or define it for ourselves. That abandonement is how we come in to closer communion with God.
There are many issues where our darkened intellect cries out “why is this wrong?” “why can’t I just do this?” but ultimately we have to decide if our inability to fully understand why something is wrong amounts to us deciding what is right and wrong for ourselves or if we trust in God’s wisdom. Embracing the idea that we decide for ourselves amounts to a rejection of God and exalting ourselves as our own god, the road to final impenitence and blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. We must trust in his wisdom, all his rules and laws are not oppressive burdens, rather they are for our own good, happiness, and freedom whether we realize it or not.
If they are brothers and sisters in Christ then their rule is scripture which defines homosexual acts as sin.:banghead: I can understand an atheist not accepting this but for a Christian to want to find reason outside of scripture is sheer lunacy./QUOte)
then what is the witness for what you believe? isnt that what 1john1 is about?
God’s will? Genesis starts off with the idea of procreation before the fall by giving the instruction of be fruitful and multiply. Deutoronomy tells the Hebrew people to Choose Life confirming the initial request. And scripture time and time again says God does not change. You my friend, and I am trying to reach out ot you as a friend, are trying to pit scripture against itself. Instead look at the whole picture, especially the Song of Songs. It presents God’s will for the intent of heterosexual marriage only. In your particular reference Paul is calling on the Romans to see the beauty of that message, not to suddenly decide for yourself what is right and wrong.romans 12:22Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
are proposing that the renewing of your mind comes from blind acceptance of something, because it has existed for 2,000 years.
where in scripture does it tell us to do that?
when you quote 1cor6:9-10 include 11… 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.How do you “interpret” these scriptures explicitly condemning homosexual acts as unnatural and immoral?
“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” **1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 (NAB) **
“Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts 15 for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. … Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1: 24-28, 32 (NAB)
What “spirit’ are you referring to? There are good spirits who serve the Holy Spirit, and then there are bad spirits who serve Satan.
Exactly what “silent persecution” are you referring to? You believe that there is more than one interpretation to scripture? What if the “chosen” interpretations contradict each other/ Who is right? Does God contradict Himself ?
people were stoned who committed adultry(both or one being married)…that did not prohibit men from indulging in sex with prostitutes.(judah) the reason there was punishment for sex with virgins was because women were considered property and that was considered an act of defiling a man’s property.Hi feetxxl,
Welcome back. I didn’t know if you would return to us.
Oh, I do love smelling roses! Thank you very much, but I am already fully awake and it is *you *who have been lulled off to sleep, like those in the Wizard of Oz who walked through a poppy field. Wake up! You have been deceived about what the Bible teaches. That many Christian couple engage in sex before marriage doesn’t mean that sex before marriage isn’t sinful—it means that sexual sin is very common.
Scripture most certainly does regard sex outside of marriage as a sin. The Old Testament regarded sex outside of marriage as an offense worthy of stoning. In the New Testament, we read the familiar story of a woman caught in adultery, and Jesus told her, “Go and sin no more.” He acknowledged that she committed a sin. In Mark 10 we find the story where Jesus warns that a man who divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery. He says Moses permitted divorce because they were hard hearted but Jesus referred them back to the beginning and says “they are no longer two but one, therefore don’t separate what God joined together.”
Divorce and remarriage may be common, but it’s still wrong. Few Christian churches teach that any more, but sex and marriage are not moot points. You came to a Catholic forum, and the Catholic Church does not discriminate between heterosexual or homosexuals. Sexual sins by either homosexual or heterosexuals are still sins.
In order to understand anything, Christians read and interpret scripture. That doesn’t involve selective reading while ignoring the spirit of truth and love. Love multiples. Love gives of itself. Love wants the best for the beloved and sacrifices for the sake of the other. The prohibition against homosexual acts is because those sexual acts are not acts of self-giving love that can multiple. The command to go forth and multiply still stands.
i answered a number of these points with other peopleThe “essence” of the orientation is disordered although homosexual people themsevles can and do have all the attributes you mentioned. They, and their “unions” are lacking in the ability to procreate, which is, after all, the natural biological imperative of human sexuality.
It is not equal in “spirit” (whatever that means) to heterosexual attraction. It is a consequence of our disordered human nature, from which we all suffer in some capacity.
I don’t know how you drew that conclusion from John4, but homosexual couplings do not mimic heterosexual union. The latter works in conjunction with biology and God’s plan to unify and procreate. The former mocks both biology and procreation.
Levitical laws regarding temple ritual and priestly rites were fulfilled and hence discarded with the death and resurrection of Christ. The laws prohibiting sexual immorality were sustained and reiterated in the NT.
This link may help clarify your confusion on Scriptural teaching regarding homosexuality.
continued…
are you speaking for the 12 million in this country or the 320million worldwide? surely you are aware of the biased materials that are out there to make an arguement for one side or the other. an unbiased statement about homosexuality i have yet to see.One study reports that the average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year. The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.
Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38.
From the link I provided before:
Yes, we are aware of the abuses within heterosexual couplings and they are clearly denounced and prohibited in Scripture and Tradition.
This is a typical statement from a protestant (at best), who has no firm authority (the Magisterium) to define “sin” for them, when their own comfortable definition of sin is opposed by the actual definition of sin.…{snip}…
im not familiar with any of those martyrs, but my understanding is that in cases like brother lawrence or bernadette, whatever suffering they felt compelled to endure, it was from the grace and conviction by the holy spirit. their suffering wasnt thrust upon them by others who felt compelled to burden someone with their understanding of sin.
"Perhaps the problem lies in a defintion of “persecution”. You seem to be of the opinion (and forgive me if I’m misreading this) that if one is unwilling to embrace homosexual acts, one is engaging in persecution, or as dictionary.com defines it:1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, esp. because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.2. to annoy or trouble persistently.
Which behavior are you talking about?To engage in this behavior is anti-christian. However, refusal to condone homosexual acts does not equal persecution.“that’s what im trying to get at. what is the basis for making that statement"To engage in this behavior is anti-christian.”
Do you understand what the Magisterium is, or not?is it an unsubstaniated opinion. are you merely reiterating your church leaders.
Yes.is it an expression of cultural bias(christian culture)
It is the “witness”, as you put it, of the Magisterium, about the acts in question, and what those acts engender, both personally and societally.is this a result of witness. witness being an observation, apart from one’s belief system, that either supports that belief system or comes against it.
He, Peter, was BEING taught in acts10. Peter WAS the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church) at that point, and was to eventually bring back what he had learned to the Church, just as the Magisterium has learned that same sex sex-acts are a sin, and are to be thus taught to the people of the Church as such.there were a number of references to christ being there for the gentiles as well. an example of winess…peter’s visit to cornelius’s house, acts 10, he witnessed something that totally countered everything he had been taught ( the reason he took 7 witnesses with him)
You’ll have to explain what you mean by this, as I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.there were a number of references to christ being there for the gentiles as well. but it was only because of peter’s witness that those scriptures were embraced.
Their “orientation” is what it is, and to be accepted for what it is. It is not wrong or sinful to be attracted to the same sex, as we all are “somewhat” attracted to those we find “attractive” (interesting, stimulating, intriguing, etc) of the same sex.so what im asking you to consider. that to declare a person a sinner apart from from an interpretation of scripture requires a 1john1 witness of hearing, seeing, and touching(emotionally mentally and physically) with one’s heart in the spirit of fellowship of christ(fruit of the spirit) with your homosexual brothers in christ to determine if the spirit of their orientation comes against the fruit of the spirit(galatians) love, joy peace, kindness, gentleness, goodness, self-control, patience and faithfulness.
We all sin. Does that mean that NO ONE ever produces “good fruit”?im sure you are famaliar with christ’s teaching a bad tree cannot produce good fruit and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
NO Christian makes “homosexuals” less than “heterosexuals” in any way.whether it is your intention or not, making homosexuals less than heterosexuals will cause persecution.
One’s “orientation” is what it is, but the misinterpretation of that 'orientation" by some people (those with it) produces sinful acts.you cant say one orientation is of god and the other is of satan or is anti christ or against god’s will and not cause persecution.
Persecution is never a good way to convince someone of anything, least of all to believe in the truth of Christ.im not telling you not to believe what you believe. im merely telling you the consequences of your belief, and am asking you do you believe that spirit of christ supports persecution for the benefit of anything?
What are you trying to say? I don’t understand. Please explain. Thanks.what is your understanding of witness? in scripture(the old testament required 2 witnesses) wouldn’t you conclude that lack of personnal witness raises the possibility of false witness.
i ia oe. Aloha nui.Judah had some serious issues. So did his son Onan. You may be familiar with the story about how his son Onan tried to use Tamar for sex without procreation by spilling his seed. “What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight and the Lord took his life.” (Genesis 38) Misuse of sex cost Onan his life. Onan was selfish, wanting sex without wanting the child that would result.people were stoned who committed adultry(both or one being married)…that did not prohibit men from indulging in sex with prostitutes.(judah) the reason there was punishment for sex with virgins was because women were considered property and that was considered an act of defiling a man’s property.
Procreation is important, and a dog can not create a human soul. Once again, I invite you to **examine the spirit within *you ***that inspires a phrase that compares the creation of human children to dogs.who is able to raise the progeny, not procreation is what’s important. a dog can procreate.
Well, bully for him/her. If it wasn’t a magisterial teaching, it doesn’t matter a fig what the speculation was.. . .
it went to to a seminar by someone with several doctorates after his name who said that timothy and corinthians clearly were not about homosexuality…in fact it was not clear what paul was referring to.
As if that were not sufficient! The whole first chapter of Romans relates all of what Paul calls “dishonorable passions” and “unnatural relations” to the far greater sin of idolatry: worshiping what is not God.only romans can be said with any certainy be the only place that paul is definitely mentioning same sex relations
the good fruit parable was to ask ,if homosexual coupling embraces the fruit of the spirit. as does heterosexual coupling, how can it be sinful according to that parable. how can homosexual couples, who some feel are full of the same based lust (romans) provide loving nurturing homes for raising children equal to heterosexual couples. the truth is the sexual intimacy of committed homosexual couples enhances that nurturing environment.…continued from above:
Their “orientation” is what it is, and to be accepted for what it is. It is not wrong or sinful to be attracted to the same sex, as we all are “somewhat” attracted to those we find “attractive” (interesting, stimulating, intriguing, etc) of the same sex.
The problem is that when an attraction to some PERSON of the same sex is MISINTERPRETED as a sexual attraction, that that is disordered and can lead to sinful acts of “sexual gratification”.
You don’t have to agree with that way of seeing the issue, but that is the answer that you’re looking for when you ask us to “empathize” with our same-sex-sexual-attraction prone brethren.
We see them as misinterpreting their “feelings”, and succumbing to “gratification” (putting self-gratification over reality) instead of doing what is clearly called for by the Magisterium.
We all sin. Does that mean that NO ONE ever produces “good fruit”?
No. Sinning always produces “bad fruit”, but we have the choice of not sinning, which will always produce more “good fruit” than past “bad fruit” produced by sin.
NO Christian makes “homosexuals” less than “heterosexuals” in any way.
Simply put, those who persecute “homosexuals” are not Christains, and you should not blame Christians for what they don’t do.
One’s “orientation” is what it is, but the misinterpretation of that 'orientation" by some people (those with it) produces sinful acts.
It is the “giving in” to the misinterpretation of one’s “orientation” that is “from Satan”, if you will, and the person who has been “fooled” into doing Satan’s will needs to be assisted to see where they’ve fallen, so that they can not act that way in the future.
Helping them to see where they’ve gone astray is never accomplished by persecuting them.
Those who are not Christians, who have their own reasons for persecuting “homosexuals”, would do so regardless of whether Christians deemed “homosexual acts” as sinful or not.
Persecution is never a good way to convince someone of anything, least of all to believe in the truth of Christ.
Your inference that Christian belief is the CAUSE (consequence) of the persecution of “homosexuals” is simply incorrect. The cause of that persecution is the idiotic hatred of non-Chrtistians who just like persecuting people whom they like to persecute.
What are you trying to say? I don’t understand. Please explain. Thanks.
Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai iaoe. Aloha nui.
The “fruit of the spirit”, as you put it, is not enough, as you’re considering it. The spirit and the body are inseperable, as the “body and soul” is ONE THING, and not a soul INHABITING a body.the good fruit parable was to ask ,if homosexual coupling embraces the fruit of the spirit. as does heterosexual coupling, how can it be sinful according to that parable.
Same sex sexual behavior is, a priori, disordered and an evil. You either accept that, or not.how can homosexual couples, who some feel are full of the same based lust (romans) provide loving nurturing homes for raising children equal to heterosexual couples.
The truth is that living in a state of constant unrepentant sin is not good for those who live that way, or those whom they contact.the truth is the sexual intimacy of committed homosexual couples enhances that nurturing environment.
Huh? Please make yourself understandable.if homosexual coupling is an indulgence in shame based lust(romans) as opposed to heterosexual coupling that is blessed by god, why arent those of that coupling found lacking in other sectors of society.
If one is not “chaste”, which means in a loving MARRIED man-woman relationship, then they are “unchaste”, and in mortal sin, which produces what sin always produces.surely we have found that true of heteroseuals who indulge in shame based lusting relationships…and the relationships of that nature do produce bad fruit.
i ia oe. Aloha nui.Both.when you quote 1cor6:9-10 include 11… 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
were thet saved because they changed their behavior or because they were washed, sanctified, and justified?
Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law.in romas paul says you cannot receive god’s righteousness by following the law.
Because I believe in the truth.why do feel compelled to cling to an interpretation of it.
I honor your walk in faith. I may think you have strayed into error, but I do not doubt your sincerity or the goodness of your motivation.the more i study scripture i am convinced that the holy spirit never declared homosexuality a sin, only that man did.
2 thess says test everything
when i became convinced from studying scripture that the holy spirit was not saying that homosexuality was a sin. i began attending a gay church to test my understanding and see if their was any spirit in the orientation that came against the the fruit of the spirit or against christ. i saw no sin. the only thing i encountered was the depth of my own homophobia.
This is a noble call and worthy of all who possess an ecumenical spirit. I think our beliefs will not overturned by our experiences, but this fact does not remove the need to humbly reach out to our brothers and sisters.my appeal is for those who believe in the sin interpretation, is to test their understanding by engaging in fellowship with their gay brothers and sisters in christ who share their same inheritance. to see if one they fellowship with is filled with the shame based lust of romans or in anyway they witness any spirit in the orientation homosexuality that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ.
Maybe not completely. I refuse to keep throwing the antiquated term of disordered for ssa since there is mounting evidence that there are prenatal, hormonal causes and therefore the ssa cannot be changed as some contend. It can be controlled through prayer and practice but not changed.
jesus did fulfill the law…romans says the fulfillment of the law is loveBoth.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law.
Because I believe in the truth.