Is being anti homosexual anti christian?

[Greg27]

Hating gay people, or hating anyone for that matter, is uncharitable. John himself reminds his congregation in one of his pastoral letters:

“Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[c] to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.” (1 John 10-11)."

While as Catholics we can’t endorse homosexual behaviour, that doesn’t give us any right to hate homosexuals as people. If we do that, we sin gravely.

 

[feetxxxl]

My “witness” is the observations of the Church, which explains to me why I am to believe as I believe about this subject.

Your “witness”, in my opinion, is your personal DESIRE to find a comfortable excuse for believing as you do, which is provided by yur observations of apparently “nice” people who are “homosexuals”.

Your method of “witness” is fraught with error, in being too reliant on “personal interpretation”, and not relying on the genuine authority in this subject area (faith and morals).

My test is what the Magisterium says, and whether it is sensible to me, which it had better be or I’m not Catholic.

Peter’s “witness” was a revelation from God. Remember that little incident of the vision before the visit?

Peter didn’t TEST the revelation given to him. He simply experienced the actuality of what had been revealed to him.

When it is said that we should “test”, it means that we should test things against what has been revealed to us, and the most grand revelation is Christianity in it’s fullness revealed through the Magisterium.

That is correct, and you are without excuse in denying the truth as shown by the Magisterium.

Therefore, why do you argue with the Magisterium?

Yes. Man, as in mankind, is able to discern what God is showing him, and the deposit of faith, the collected and constantly growing “discernment of God’s revelation”, is with the Magisterium.

You’ll have to be more clear as to what you’re trying to get at with this passage in this context. Thanks.

…continued below →

read #156 maybe that will help.

 

[feetxxxl]

…continued from above:

There is no “spirit of homosexuality”, any more than there’s a spirit of “liking cheese”.

You simply refuse to understand that, to those like myself anyway, “homosexuality”, as an attraction, is the natural draw a person feels for another person (who happens to be the same gender) taken to an extreme degree, where the attractee has conninced themself (helped by “society”) that it would feel REALLY GOOD to perform sexual acts with them.

Just as one can make a “maniacal obsession” of hunting down and eating rare cheeses, one can do precisely the same thing with one’s “homosexually” misinterpreted urges.

Since I’m not a “homosexual”, I can’t tell WHAT I witness from the behavior of “homosexuals”.

The point is not that being “homosexual” is a “shame based lust”, or sin, which it ISN’T,… but whether “homosexual sex acts” are, of necessity, disordered behavior, which they clearly are, as per the Magisterium.

Hopefully, you’re coming to a better understanding of why “we” believe as we do, and why you believe as you do.

Our “witness” is that “homosexual sex acts” are disordered, as learned from the observations of the authority on these type of matters.

Your “unsubstantiated belief”, in my opinion, as any opinion regarding faith and morals contrary to the Magisterium is unsubstantiated as the Magisterium is the ONLY authority on such matters, is that “homosexual sex acts” are not a sin.

We shall probably have to agree to disagree on that.

If by “fellowshipped” you mean “talked with”, “prayed with”, “worked with”, “had fun with as friends and relatives”, then I’d say that I saw them as normal people, as far as I could tell, just like with anyone, who, if they were “out”, I regarded as having an incorrect interpretation and response to one of their appetites.

Is that clear enough for you?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

how can you substaniate your belief without romans 1…if you didnt witness same based lust, then romans 1 is not about homosexuality. by not making that witness you are contradicting the source that the magisterium’s position… do you think the magisterium"s position is sans romans.

there has to be a spirit in the essence of homosexuality that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ for it to be a sin.

you confusing witness with belief…the magisterium is your belief. it is not your witness…your witness is apart from belief in other words the mental process is something like this i believe that homosexuals are guilty of shame based lust as per romans but being with them in fellowship do sense…see…feel…hear… experience anything that resembles shame based lust, or denial of shame based lust?

remember 1john1 that which we saw, that which we touched

and romans 1: 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse…you must witness some spirit that isnt of god. there is a spirit essence behind any choice. no one makes a choice in a vacuum.

it was peter’s witnessing of the gentiles being washed by the holy spirit and the gentiles being given to that spirit that gave meaning to the vision god was showing peter. without the witness how could have gone back to jerusalem and put flesh on the vision.

 

[feetxxxl]

For a Catholic, “I believe” is about a Person, the person of Jesus Christ, who is Truth incarnate …no concept here. Jesus Christ made exclusive claims that He alone is “the way, and the truth, and the life”.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” John 14: 6

i was being to simplistic about the expression" i believe", because i have witnessed the incredible transformation from saying the sinners prayer by those who received christ as their lord and savior. obviously its not about the words, but spirit behind the words

 

[blessedtoo]

Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts 15 for the mutual degradation of their bodies.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. **Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, ****27 ****and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. **28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.

Which part of this are you having trouble understanding? It takes alot of imagination to twist this clear passage to mean something other than homosexual acts.

you confusing witness with belief…the magisterium is your belief. it is not your witness…

God is the witness. If you accept that Scripture is the inspired Word of God, you don’t even NEED the Magesterium to interpret this passage. It’s as plain as day.

i believe that homosexuals are guilty of shame based lust as per romans but being with them in fellowship do sense…see…feel…hear.… experience anything that resembles shame based lust, or denial of shame based lust?

Oh, I see. So what you sense, see, feel and hear provides a more accurate “witness” than the inspired word of God? Immersion in sin deadens the conscience. You will not see many active homosexuals expressing shame. If that is what you are looking for, you will not find it. If you want to really “witness” the “spirit” that can exist among homosexuals, I suggest you search the forums for the many threads on which chaste and faithful SSA men and women express their joy and devotion to living and walking with Christ and His Church.

 

[feetxxxl]

Which part of this are you having trouble understanding? It takes alot of imagination to twist this clear passage to mean something other than homosexual acts.

God is the witness. If you accept that Scripture is the inspired Word of God, you don’t even NEED the Magesterium to interpret this passage. It’s as plain as day.

Oh, I see. So what you sense, see, feel and hear provides a more accurate “witness” than the inspired word of God? Immersion in sin deadens the conscience. You will not see many active homosexuals expressing shame. If that is what you are looking for, you will not find it. If you want to really “witness” the “spirit” that can exist among homosexuals, I suggest you search the forums for the many threads on which chaste and faithful SSA men and women express their joy and devotion to living and walking with Christ and His Church.

 

[feetxxxl]

blessedtoo

sense…see…feel…hear, is what tour entire justice system is based on

romans 1:20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

paul is saying god has given the capacity to man to know god and to know what is of him and what is not whether believer or unbeliever by witnessing what he created… so no one has an excuse to sin…and why it justifiable to subject all to a final judgement.

again what homosexuals will do or not do… what is your witness.

 

[Grace_Angel]

from the start i have consistently asked three questions.
(1)what is your witness of your understanding? remember witness is apart from your belief system…its what you see in your heart in thru fellowship in the spirit…see thru the place where christ lives.
(2) what is your test?1thess says" test everything …keep the good." your witness is your test. peter had one understanding about the gentiles. when he witessed at cornelius’s house he encountered another thru his witness… one essence of paul’s entire epistle is about witnessing.

romans 1:1818The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

paul says god has given man the capacity to not only know he exists, but also the capacity to discern what god is showing him, that is… what is of him and not of him. so that no man has an excuse to sin. this is witness.

the power of 1john1 is that it came from witness in fellowship…“that which we saw, that which we touched…”

(3)what is the spirit of homosexuality that is comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ…knowing our battle is not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. if you believe paul in romans 1:26-27, is referring to homosexuals, you have to say shame based lust. that is what you may believe. but is that what you have witnessed? without witness all you have is unsubstantiated belief. what is it you saw when you have fellowshipped with homosexual believers?

so far no one has answered them.

Feet xxxl you asked the question, “Is being anti homosexual anti christian?” The answer to that is simple. You can be anti the practice of homosexuality (the act) but never the person. The person never loses their humanity and that humanity must at all times be respected.
I think this is what is meant to love the sinner but hate the sin.
Grace Angel.

 

[TarlsQtr]

Fine answer Grace Angel.

Homosexuality is an act of sin, just as speeding on the highway or taking a couple of pens from work are acts of sin. We all sin, so you have to be anti everyone if you want to be “anti homosexual.”

Besides, Jesus did not say to love one another “except homosexuals.”

In a nutshell, be anti homosexuality but love homosexuals like Jesus commands us.

God Bless,

Jeff**

 

[TheGoodLife]

I see many of my Catholic friends and family who use their faith and the Bible to justify their hateful remarks toward gays. It saddens me to hear their ‘holier-than-thou’ attitudes when talking about gays. Yet these same people are sinners themselves. We all sin, so why do they feel like it’s okay to bash the sins of gays but not their own? It shouldn’t be like that.

 

[PauloFreire2]

I believe gays can be great Christians. Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality, and it exists in nature. If God dislikes it, why did He create it? Why is Man any different in his homosexuality than animals? Why would God reason, “Well, I’ll consider okay in animals, but a grave sin in humans?” Why?

 

[setter]

Fine answer Grace Angel.

Homosexuality is an act of sin, just as speeding on the highway or taking a couple of pens from work are acts of sin. We all sin, so you have to be anti everyone if you want to be “anti homosexual.”

Besides, Jesus did not say to love one another “except homosexuals.”

In a nutshell, be anti homosexuality but love homosexuals like Jesus commands us.

God Bless,

Jeff**
IOW, be anti-sin, calling sin for what it is, and noting that not all sins are equal – some are venial, and some can kill the soul of sanctifying grace.

 

[setter]

I see many of my Catholic friends and family who use their faith and the Bible to justify their hateful remarks toward gays. It saddens me to hear their ‘holier-than-thou’ attitudes when talking about gays. Yet these same people are sinners themselves. We all sin, so why do they feel like it’s okay to bash the sins of gays but not their own? It shouldn’t be like that.

To clarify (and qualify) your comment, can you please provide a few verbatum examples of “bash the sins of gays” that betrays a ‘holier-than-thou’ attitudes when talking about gays?

 

[feetxxxl]

Feet xxxl you asked the question, “Is being anti homosexual anti christian?” The answer to that is simple. You can be anti the practice of homosexuality (the act) but never the person. The person never loses their humanity and that humanity must at all times be respected.
I think this is what is meant to love the sinner but hate the sin.
Grace Angel.

now answer the three questions>

 

[setter]

I believe gays can be great Christians. Jesus didn’t condemn homosexuality, and it exists in nature. If God dislikes it, why did He create it? Why is Man any different in his homosexuality than animals? Why would God reason, “Well, I’ll consider okay in animals, but a grave sin in humans?” Why?

As a self-identified “Catholic”, you show a gross irgnorance of why homosexual acts are condemned as grave sin and an abomination before God.

To educate you a bit: God did not “create” the disordered sexual attraction of SSA – this is a subsequent consequance of original sin. The only evidence needed to condemn is natural moral law. Jesus explicitly condemned lust and impurity. Human beings are moral creatures, all other animals are not. Man is a free will creature with higher rational powers, an intellect that animal intelligence can only dimly mimic, and all non-human animals are restricted and bound by a set range of instinctual behaviors. Exceptions, anomalies, abberations, …do not establish the norm – they are deviations from the norm.

 

[setter]

i was being to simplistic about the expression" i believe", because i have witnessed the incredible transformation from saying the sinners prayer by those who received christ as their lord and savior. obviously its not about the words, but spirit behind the words

Is this “spirit” a Person or simply the “spirit” of one’s personal subjective interpetation blowing in the wind?

 

[Dale_M]

I see many of my Catholic friends and family who use their faith and the Bible to justify their hateful remarks toward gays…

I am sorry to hear that - and a little puzzled too. Among my Catholic friends and family homosexuality is pretty much a non-issue. If anything they have a predilection to be indulgent of persons who are actively gay.

Yes, you are right. We are all sinners and are all likely to sin again. We are in no position to judge others and have been told by Christ not to pass judgements on others.

Please pray for those who condemn persons with same sex attraction.

 

[feetxxxl]

Is this “spirit” a Person or simply the “spirit” of one’s personal subjective interpetation blowing in the wind?

romans 8:3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,** God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the SPIRIT.

romans 2:29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

romans7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

there are 29 others references to the spirit in romans**

 

[gardenswithkids]

now answer the three questions>

from the start i have consistently asked three questions.

(1)what is your witness of your understanding? remember witness is apart from your belief system…its what you see in your heart in thru fellowship in the spirit…see thru the place where christ lives.

Question 1)
I assume you mean what specifics acts and behaviors each of us *personally *witness and have witnessed. My earlier answer reflected my belief system and that is what I live by. My children’s very DNA bonds represents the bonds of love between my husband and me. God formed our children in cooperation with us in our marriage. My husband and I raise our seven children together in a loving home. In my family, I experience both God’s plan for love and marriage, and I experience the struggles of a fallen world that make living according to His plan difficult.

My children help witness the Truth to me. God wanted sex preserved for marriage so that children would have both mother and father committed to them. I see how my children love their father and how he loves them. Loving human fathers only image our Heavenly Father—He is our True Father.

 

[gardenswithkids]

(2) what is your test?1thess says" test everything …keep the good." your witness is your test. peter had one understanding about the gentiles. when he witessed at cornelius’s house he encountered another thru his witness… one essence of paul’s entire epistle is about witnessing.

romans 1:1818The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

paul says god has given man the capacity to not only know he exists, but also the capacity to discern what god is showing him, that is… what is of him and not of him. so that no man has an excuse to sin. this is witness.

the power of 1john1 is that it came from witness in fellowship…“that which we saw, that which we touched…”

Question 2) My test: Like most couples, my husband and I wanted God to bless us with children, but we wanted them on our terms, not His. We shared the mentality that plagues our culture, and we did not always follow Catholic Church teachings against contraception. (My husband grew up Protestant and contraception isn’t even questioned by most Protestant churches.) Yet something tugged at me. I even remember one time after reading Romans and reflecting on Paul’s condemning homosexual acts an interior voice tell me, “You do the same thing with birth control.” I didn’t understand what that voice meant, but I still remember it. At that time, I attended a Protestant church with my husband, but I grew up Catholic. Eventually I returned to the Catholic Church and felt compelled to learn more about her teachings against contraception. I grew convinced.

Your quote from Romans refers to the creation of the world and tells us we can see God’s invisible qualities in what He made. Back at the beginning of creation, Genesis 1: 27-28 tells us “So God created man in his own image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them ,’Be fruitful and multiply…’”

I haven’t always followed the Church teachings, and I don’t followed them with a “blind obedience.” I tested those teachings. We struggled to overcome our own reliance on contraception, and God blessed us greatly for it. Children *are *blessings from the Lord. I see the truth of the Church teachings, and I physically touch that truth when I hold my children.

You quoted from the first letter of John. Consider the whole letter, especially these parts: “It was there from the beginning; we have heard it; we have seen it with our own eyes we looked upon it and felt it with our own hand; and it is of this we tell. Our theme is the word of life. This life was made visible; we have seen it and bear our testimony; we here declare to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we declare to you… I John 1-2
***If we claim to be sinless, we are self-decieved and strangers to the truth. If we confess our sins, he is just, and may be trusted to forgive our sins and cleanse us from every kind of wrong; but if we say we have committed no sin, we make him out to be a liar, and then his work has not place in us…". ***I John 1: 8-9

Again, John refers to the beginning—see Genesis 1 quoted earlier. The theme is life. As verse 8 tells us to confess, I confess to you that I sinned when I used contraception. It was dreadfully wrong of me to separate sex from its life-giving power. I know the truth now and I live by it. Living by that truth gave real physical life to my children.