Is being anti homosexual anti christian?

[blessedtoo]

As are the propensities to fornicate or adulterate. Do you consider these natural since they are heterosexual desires?

There is a difference between “natural” and “ordered”. It is natural for some animals to eat their young. It is natural for hurricanes to wipe out cities during their seasons. It is natural for humans to seek as much pleasure as possible. But these things are all part of the fallen nature of our world and the disorder that was introduced into it after the fall of our first parents. So to answer your question, it is irrelevent whether something “feels” natural to the human. The issue is whether our inclinations are ordered to good, to God’s will. There is nothing “extraordinary” about the inclination to homosexual acts other than the fact that it is the “issue du jour”. It is no more or less a disorder than the alleged alcoholic “gene”. The ramifications of various disorders are different, of course, in that how we choose to co-exist with them is completely our choice. That is where the culpability comes in.

 

[blessedtoo]

in oder to embrace a prohibition of homosexuality requires interpretation of scripture. how can you validate that interpretation without testing the spirit.

2 thess says test everything. john 4 says the true worshippers will worship in spirit and in truth. romans 122Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

therefore what is the spirit of homosexuality that it would come against the fruit of the **spirit and the spirit **of christ?

What on earth do you mean??? How do you “test” the spirit and what “spirit” are you talking about? You wish to know whether the prohibition on homosexual acts has been tested? In other words, let’s not take God’s word at face value - let’s test it out and see if He’s right on this one? How exactly does one have to twist the most obvious Scripture prohibitions to draw the conclusion that there is some ambiguity?

surely everyone here on this site knows someone personnally who is gay…has anyone gone to them and asked them if they feel they are the samebased lusters described in romans

surely this would be more honest than the continued silent persecution. and you would finally have a witness to either support or counter your chosen interpretation of scripture

OK, I’ll bite. I know quite a few folks who are in the lifestyle. My sister is a self-identified “lesbian”. I participated in the lifestyle for a bit of time. So what? Is it the individual’s “feelings” you wish to discuss or the truth? My sister’s 20 year relationship does not eradicate the prohibition against the acts in which she particpates, no matter how she may “feel”. She, and all the other friends I have, can test the “rules” till their last breath and it won’t change the law that God has given us. Their unions can “appear” to be perfect and loving and all that other sentimental hallmark-greeting card nonsense. It will still not change God’s mind.

 

[East_and_West]

your diabetes is a disorder. i myself am borderline so understand about cravings…the difference betwen cravings and normal desire for food is that cravings are about having have it right NOW is couched in feeling good about myself. where as normal food hunger says “i need food” and i will eat it some time in the future.

if your metaphor with homosexuality was to hold up then homosexuality would have to be about lust which has the same “NOW” dimension.

that is not the truth. homosexuality is about mutual attraction, respect and love the same as in heterosexuality.

ill ask you the same question . apart from ant cultural conditioning, and mindset, what is your witness that tells you it is a disorder.

I am sorry, but I used to be invovled in the homosexual community and life style. it is not about mutaul respect and love. The homosexual community is about lust, using others, and self hatred. So incredibly far from the Heterosexual ideal it is not even funny. Why do think that the rate of STD transmission is so high among homosexuals?

 

[Maxply]

I’d like the homosexuals, lesbians, etc., to answer a question:

Have you ever felt or thought that possibly your behavior is a kind of sex addiction?

 

[East_and_West]

I’d like the homosexuals, lesbians, etc., to answer a question:

Have you ever felt or thought that possibly your behavior is a kind of sex addiction?

When I was invovled in homosexuality, absolutely. I knew that it was wrong but I was addicted. Thank God for the grace he gave me to leave it behind.

 

[setter]

in oder to embrace a prohibition of homosexuality requires interpretation of scripture. how can you validate that interpretation without testing the spirit.

How do you “interpret” these scriptures explicitly condemning homosexual acts as unnatural and immoral?

“Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” **1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 (NAB) **

“Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts 15 for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. … Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1: 24-28, 32 (NAB)

therefore what is the spirit of homosexuality that it would come against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ?

What “spirit’ are you referring to? There are good spirits who serve the Holy Spirit, and then there are bad spirits who serve Satan.

surely this would be more honest than the continued silent persecution. and you would finally have a witness to either support or counter your chosen interpretation of scripture.

Exactly what “silent persecution” are you referring to? You believe that there is more than one interpretation to scripture? What if the “chosen” interpretations contradict each other/ Who is right? Does God contradict Himself ?

 

[melensdad]

The Church has stated otherwise:

I think there is some room for discussion on this point. As you quoted, and as I now quote below, it states PRACTICING homosexual. Further the church does recognize that some priests are gay, and requires they remain chaste, just like other priests. The key is that they must refrain from their tendencies. You seem to state something as an absolute that the church writes a little bit differently. Note the key words: ACTIVE and PRACTICING.

**The Vatican has published long-awaited guidelines which reaffirm that active homosexuals and “supporters of gay culture” may not become priests. **

But it treats homosexuality as a “tendency”, not an orientation, and says those who have overcome it can begin training to take holy orders.

At least three years must pass between “overcoming [a] transitory problem” and ordination as a deacon, the rules say.

All Catholic priests take a vow of celibacy, *regardless of orientation. *
The guidelines make no reference to current priests, but only to men about to join a seminary.

They are the outcome of a review ordered by the late Pope John Paul II following highly damaging abuse scandals in the US in which several men accused priests of having abused them as teenagers.

No link has been established between homosexuality and the abuse of children.
**
‘Duty to dissuade’**

The Vatican document describes homosexual acts as “grave sins” that cannot be justified under any circumstances.

     "If a candidate practises homosexuality, or presents deep-seated homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director as well as his confessor have the duty to dissuade him in conscience from proceeding towards ordination," it says.

“Such persons in fact find themselves in a situation that presents a grave obstacle to a correct relationship with men and women.”

But the paper also stresses the Church’s deep respect for homosexuals, who, it says, should by no means be discriminated against.
setter responding to feetxxl:

Exactly what “silent persecution” are you referring to? You believe that there is more than one interpretation to scripture? What if the “chosen” interpretations contradict each other/ Who is right? Does God contradict Himself ?

Could it be that people who take a harsh stand on folks who have homosexual tendencies, but who choose and try to live a chaste life, in accordance with Catholic beliefs, but who are treated as outcasts and unwelcome by our church are, in fact, facing a silent persecution by being excluded from our Church?

 

[gardenswithkids]

Hi feetxxl,

Welcome back. I didn’t know if you would return to us.

you need to wake up and smell the roses …sex outside of marriage is no longer a sin.(out of necessity and because scripture never declared it a sin)… … only the spirit by which it happens.

im sure you are aware of the survey among recently married christians couples that found 95% had sex before marriage

so marriage and sex issue is moot.

Oh, I do love smelling roses! Thank you very much, but I am already fully awake and it is *you *who have been lulled off to sleep, like those in the Wizard of Oz who walked through a poppy field. Wake up! You have been deceived about what the Bible teaches. That many Christian couple engage in sex before marriage doesn’t mean that sex before marriage isn’t sinful—it means that sexual sin is very common.

Scripture most certainly does regard sex outside of marriage as a sin. The Old Testament regarded sex outside of marriage as an offense worthy of stoning. In the New Testament, we read the familiar story of a woman caught in adultery, and Jesus told her, “Go and sin no more.” He acknowledged that she committed a sin. In Mark 10 we find the story where Jesus warns that a man who divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery. He says Moses permitted divorce because they were hard hearted but Jesus referred them back to the beginning and says “they are no longer two but one, therefore don’t separate what God joined together.”

Divorce and remarriage may be common, but it’s still wrong. Few Christian churches teach that any more, but sex and marriage are not moot points. You came to a Catholic forum, and the Catholic Church does not discriminate between heterosexual or homosexuals. Sexual sins by either homosexual or heterosexuals are still sins.

in oder to embrace a prohibition of homosexuality requires interpretation of scripture. how can you validate that interpretation without testing the spirit.

In order to understand anything, Christians read and interpret scripture. That doesn’t involve selective reading while ignoring the spirit of truth and love. Love multiples. Love gives of itself. Love wants the best for the beloved and sacrifices for the sake of the other. The prohibition against homosexual acts is because those sexual acts are not acts of self-giving love that can multiple. The command to go forth and multiply still stands.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…in this day and age having children is not a primary importance in this over crowded planet where eventually water will be as valuable as oil. …

remember any dog can procreate…what is important is who will raise the offspring.

from the numbers of unwanted children in this country and the 30 million orphans in africa contributed by aids among heterosexuals i would think that raising not procreation is the primary concern

In this day and age, having Godly children is still of primary importance. You believe those who tell you that children take up too many of the earth’s precious resource, but I don’t. I believe the Bible, and it tells me that children are blessings from the Lord.

You compare the creation of a human child to dogs; consider what spirit inspired* that* statement. The numbers of unwanted children, (often conceived outside of marriage) and children left orphans because a sexually transmitted disease points once again to the fact that heterosexuals commit sexual sin too.

im not looking for sympathy…im saying that homosexuals should be deemed equals with heterosexuals and treated accordingly….

I offer sympathy, even if you aren’t looking for it. Christians sometimes focus on homosexuals’ sins, but I think the many heterosexuals’ sins in our society gave birth to homosexual inclination. You don’t see the procreation of children as important to the sexual act—and neither do most heterosexuals who use contraception to prevent their sexual acts from being fruitful. Heterosexuals who divorce and remarry don’t want to hear what they do is sinful either. That doesn’t change the fact. Sexual sins still exist. Our society focuses so much on sex without having a clue about how great sex really is! People who know great sex, protect their chastity.

 

[mercygate]

that brings up my question. apart from mindset, cultural conditioning, and bias (possible homophia…etc) what is it that convinces you that homosexuality is a sin? what is your witness?

No Catholic who understands the teaching of the Church says that homosexuality (if by that you mean same sex attraction) is a sin. The witness that homosexual acts are disordered and partake of the nature of sin lies in the natural law, which, as Paul tell us in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans, is understandable even by the barbarians.

 

[setter]

I think there is some room for discussion on this point. As you quoted, and as I now quote below, it states PRACTICING homosexual. Further the church does recognize that some priests are gay, and requires they remain chaste, just like other priests. The key is that they must refrain from their tendencies. You seem to state something as an absolute that the church writes a little bit differently. Note the key words: ACTIVE and PRACTICING.

You appear to be selectively reading into the document. I was responding to your future tense “is no reason that they cannot become members of our clergy”, endorsement of ordaining persons with a predominant SSA. The authoritative Church document cited clearly excludes from admission to seminary or holy orders such psychosexually disordered individuals.
There are 3 manifestations which exclude admission to seminary or holy orders: 1) those who practise homosexuality, 2) *present deep-seated homosexual tendencies *or 3) support the so-called "gay culture. I trust the wisdom of the Church.

In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”[10]. link

Could it be that people who take a harsh stand on folks who have homosexual tendencies, but who choose and try to live a chaste life, in accordance with Catholic beliefs, but who are treated as outcasts and unwelcome by our church are, in fact, facing a silent persecution by being excluded from our Church?

The Church does not treat as outcasts those who are afflicted with SSA.

 

[melensdad]

You appear to be selectively reading into the document. . .

I’m sorry I do not think I am selectively reading the document, but I may be guilty of not fully expressing myself when I wrote the reply.

Let me rephrase . . . there is no reason, provided they follow the rules . . .

The Church does not treat as outcasts those who are afflicted with SSA.

Correct, the Church does not, but many of its members do!

 

[setter]

I’m sorry I do not think I am selectively reading the document, but I may be guilty of not fully expressing myself when I wrote the reply.

Let me rephrase . . . there is no reason, provided they follow the rules . . .

Agreed …and the Church “rules”, i.e., Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders, clearly state that persons with a “present deep-seated homosexual tendencies” need not apply to seminary and require 3 years absence of such predominant SSA.

Correct, the Church does not, but many of its members do!

We can only do our part and encourage others likewise.

 

[BlazingBolt]

From Original Post

if the spirit of homosexual couplimg mimics the the spirit of heterosexal coupling

This is exactly why it is wrong. It mimics what is good. Anything that mimics what is good is not good, it is an imitation. That is basically what all evils in this world are, imitations trying to pass themselves off as good, perversions by their very nature. Do we embrace the counterfeit good or pursue the real thing? If God exists and is unchanging, and goodness and truth are absolute with him as their source, then anything that alters or mimics this truth is incompatible with it. We must yield to the truth of what is good and abandon our desires to alter it, mimic it, or define it for ourselves. That abandonement is how we come in to closer communion with God.

There are many issues where our darkened intellect cries out “why is this wrong?” “why can’t I just do this?” but ultimately we have to decide if our inability to fully understand why something is wrong amounts to us deciding what is right and wrong for ourselves or if we trust in God’s wisdom. Embracing the idea that we decide for ourselves amounts to a rejection of God and exalting ourselves as our own god, the road to final impenitence and blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. We must trust in his wisdom, all his rules and laws are not oppressive burdens, rather they are for our own good, happiness, and freedom whether we realize it or not.

 

[Dale_M]

of course i will encounter many brothers and sisters in christ who believe other than myself. that is not important. i am interested in their on witness and reasoning that supports that belief or whether the belief is unsubstantiated.

And numerous people have pointed out to you various Bible verses to support the interpretation that homosexual actions are sinful. So the real question is one of context and interpretation. After all, we ignore many Bible verses (especially in Leviticus) so why should attach importance to the ones mentioned here?

I see you are Episcopalian. I am not familar with your church and do not know if it claims that the Holy Spirit guides it so fully that it makes no errors in faith and morals. The Catholic Church does make this claim. Its interpretations of Scripture are accurate because God has guaranteed us that accuracy.

You are aware, no doubt, of the terrible and growing division in the Anglican Communion over the matter of homosexuality. I grieve over this dissension - it is another senseless division of the Body of Christ. My question to you is: why are you so sure of your interpretation of Scripture when it is contrary to two thousand years of Christian tradition?

 

[goofyjim]

I would just like to reiterate that I for one am only against homosexual acts. But I don’t mind having homosexuals as friends.

 

[melensdad]

I would just like to reiterate that I for one am only against homosexual acts. But I don’t mind having homosexuals as friends.

I believe you are generally in line with the basic teachings of the church. It also seems pretty sensible.

 

[goofyjim]

I believe you are generally in line with the basic teachings of the church. It also seems pretty sensible.

Maybe not completely. I refuse to keep throwing the antiquated term of disordered for ssa since there is mounting evidence that there are prenatal, hormonal causes and therefore the ssa cannot be changed as some contend. It can be controlled through prayer and practice but not changed.

 

[melensdad]

Maybe not completely.

I said “generally” in line

 

[feetxxxl]

i have spent three years on internet reading any explanation i could find, as to the reasoning that says homosexuality is a sin. in every single case the reasoning that was presented never held up to any scrutiny.

in additon, i found more and more scriptures that supported an understanding that the holy spirit never declared homosexuality a sin…

i listened to those of my church who supported the sin theory. everytime they spoke…their words never came from spirit of love and fellowship…which 1john1 says is a part of walking in the light…

every single time the words for the support of it being a sin, were spoken, they were spoken in a spirit of fear, contempt, and disgust. if the spirit that condemns homosexuality is not a spirit of fellowship and love then how can it be part of christ.

i fact i challenge you to try to share your sin belief with a homosexual in the name of fellowship. it cant be done. and the reason is, that the spirit that would hold onto that interpretation has no concern for the homosexual, only with supporting a belief system

i was amazed that most of those who supported the sin theory were totally unfamiliar with scriptures that referred to homosexuality.

the more i study scripture i am convinced that the holy spirit never declared homosexuality a sin, only that man did.

2 thess says test everything
when i became convinced from studying scripture that the holy spirit was not saying that homosexuality was a sin. i began attending a gay church to test my understanding and see if their was any spirit in the orientation that came against the the fruit of the spirit or against christ. i saw no sin. the only thing i encountered was the depth of my own homophobia.

i am convinced that our witness is our test. witness is acknowledging in ones heart the spirit we encounter as we go about our daily lives. knowing that our battle is not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. it is why daily we put on the armor of god. the acknowledgement is apart from our belief systems…the best example i can give you is peter in acts 10.

my appeal is for those who believe in the sin interpretation, is to test their understanding by engaging in fellowship with their gay brothers and sisters in christ who share their same inheritance. to see if one they fellowship with is filled with the shame based lust of romans or in anyway they witness any spirit in the orientation homosexuality that comes against the fruit of the spirit and the spirit of christ.