Is Belief In His Deity Essencial to salvation?

[MyRdmrLvs]

Suggested reading for the catholic view: Jesus of Nazereth by Pope Benedict XVI
pages 320-355.

I have no idea if it is essential or not, but if it is not essential then Jesus is merely a great guy and a fantastic teacher. Nothing more.

People believe that He is the Son of God who lived a sinless life and voluntarily gave His life on the cross in obedience to the Father and rose again on the third day. They believe He gave His life for the forgiveness of sins… this is much more than a great guy and a fantastic teacher.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

WHAT? Did you read what you wrote? You really should just give up. This isn’t worth even addressing.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Yes, that is right, but not the whole story as you are certainly aware. Knowing that the doctrine of the Trinity has been explained to you in detail, I won’t waste my time going through it again. I don’t think you are interested in the truth of what we believe.

Or the actual topic of this thread either!

 

[Masters_Servant]

Jesus can’t be God because the writings of Jews, Old Testament, sayings of Moses and other Israeli prophets will not allow it. Jesus was a Jew and he belonged to the Jews. Theree was not any christian to be seen.

Jesus never sid that he was God. The theory that Jesus was God is a derived theory, not a direct word of speech. The derived theory can be wrong too. It is such a serious subject that it cannot go un-noticed. The Muslims do not believe and do not allow any other God beside the One God.

The problem of the Christians is that they believe in three gods (Father, son and holy ghost)
“Any one who has seen me has the Father…”

True again. But is it to be taken literally?? Surely not.
One of those was that he was the King of the Jews. He denied it.
The other was that he was God or son of God. Jesus explained that too and did not admit it. So why should the christians take up the same stand as that of the Jews who were enemies of Jesus in his time.

Whatever, the people of Jesus (Jews) did to Jesus as accusations, the same things are believed by the present day christians. We Muslims do not believe those things. Jesus never said in direct words that he was God. So no one should say such things by own derived meanings.

Samething about Trinity. Jesus never said there three gods in One God. He did not say that God the Father is composed of three gods. He talked about God (The Father) and talked a little about the son too. He talked about the holy spirit too which was right. Alright. He believed in the holy spirit. But never said that son was God or holy spirit was also a god, or part of God.

I hope that this riddle will soon be solved, somehow. We Muslims believe in Jesus to be a very good man, i.e. a prophet and that is the highest status for any man. That is as much as we Muslims can allow. There had been many prophets before Jesus. It is not anything unusual.

**What you are saying is that you are ignorant of the Bible; otherwise you would not argue that there are 3 Gods. That is like arguing that a triangle can’t be a triangle because it has 3 sides. God has said the wisdom of men is foolishness before God. Jesus said in **John 5:37 And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not. 39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; 40 and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. 41 I receive not glory from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in yourselves. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, who receive glory one of another, and the glory that [cometh] from the only God ye seek not? 45 Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, [even] Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. 46 For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

In the red bold above, the one is Jesus the God-man.

Christianity is the only religion that provides a way of Salvation to whosoever comes to the Lord Jesus. Our God is the only God which the human, made in His image, is able to have a “personal” relationship with. If the Holy Scripture was the second edition as the Koran is, then Christianity would be useless because it would fail from the start. Where Islam is most dominate is in countries where there is little to no religious freedom. If that was broken down, then you would know who were truly Muslim and who was not.
**
Then there is the prophesy that cannot be overlooked in the OT and if i were Muslim i would look at this carefully, then put it in light of history and what we witness today.**

Then the angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man,

His hand will be against everyone,

And everyone’s hand will be against him;

And he will live to the east of all his brothers." ** (This is East of Israel)
**
Ismael is not the child of promise, it was Issac. Ishmael represents the man doing it his way as Abraham was impatient and took on a concubine and had Ishmael, whereas God had Sarah to bore Issac at an age where it would have been impossible to bear children, which is Gods way of showing His sovereignty over man.
Also the angel of the Lord here is the preincarnate Jesus giving the message, not an angel angel.

This may help you to understand if the Bible had the problems of the Koran, then their would be no Christianity to the extent in the countries that have freedom of religion.
Click Here

I pray the personal God of all creation will remove the veil through Christ Jesus.

 

[elvisman]

I wasnt sudjesting it was a new truth, only that it wasnt understood by the entire church until that time. that is true dispite my “ignorance”. I have said on this thread that I believe there is more than enough scripture to support His deity but despite that some people get confused by the texts that establish His humanity and cant reconcile them with His divinity.
What do you mean by “defame the Fathers”? What spiritual pride? Im just trying to have a discussion.

It doesn’t matter if the entire Church agreed on the matter as long as the Magesterium taught it - that is all that is needed. When a doctrine is challenged by a heresy or some other controversy, it is sometimes necessary for the Church to declare that doctrine as a binding belief among the members of the Church.

Some people think that the Church just goes around inventing doctrines every time something is declared. This is not the case.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Arguing with muslims is ruining this thread. This thread is for people who believe in the Bible.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” … John 20:28

For someone who is in a state of astonishment, couldn’t this impulsive blurt of expression be logically translated as “My Lord… Oh my God!” in modern-day parlance?

Most non-Christian would not say that based on the context, because earlier, the Apostle, Thomas said he would not believe He has risen unless he could pick his finger where the nails were.

Here is the context of the verse and you cannot read it any other way than what it explicitly states.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

 

[Masters_Servant]

You say christians do not believe in three gods. I doubt it. I ask you :
Is Jesus as God or not?
Is Holy spirit a God or not?
Is Father a God or Not?

So there are three Gods too and then they are together as ONE God. I agree you believe in One God. But you have the three gods too. It cannot be understood, how possible.

You are right you cannot not fully understand it. Look at it this way. I am a father, a son and a husband; yet I am one with 3 natures or essence, but despite all those I am just one. Each person or essence has a specific duty, yet I am one. All three are the same one and cannot be separated from the one. Hope that helps.

 

[Masters_Servant]

I do not doubt the Truth of the Triune Godhead. However, it is poor apologetic practice to call someone essentially an idiot for not getting the point you are trying to stress.

I agree and doesn’t show the love of Christ and is a poor testimony. Zeal for God is one thing, but insults and demeaning of people is not the proper behavior of a person who names the Name of Jesus and makes us all look like a “Pat Robertson”.

 

[Masters_Servant]

My goal is to defend - AND debate if needs be.
In this case, both have been necessary because of some pretty ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims.

You keep claiming that I am name-calling - and I am not.
I only said that an understanding if the Scriptures and simple common sense points to the fact that Thomas was speaking to Jesus about Jesus.

I never said that anybody on this forum lacked common sense. I am insinuating that they’re simply not using it. There IS a difference.

Elvis,

For what it is worth and I’m sure it will mean nothing to you, but you do not come across as defending but rather offending and your testimony becomes blurred. I won’t say another word on it because enough has already been said and you do not seem to take friendly and well meaning critiques very well. I hope I am completely wrong.

God bless you.

 

[TheosisM]

do you have the whole quote? the etc… part? How old is this?

You can read the Athanasian Creed here:

ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

It dates to the 4th or 5th century AD, and is a pretty important formulation of Trinitarian belief. It is one of the three “Creeds” of traditional Christianity, along with the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

As you can see, it begins by saying “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith”, states that “the catholic faith” is the Trinity, then goes into a description of the Trinity, then reasserts the first sentence by concluding “. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.”

So, how do people interpret these parts of the Athanasian Creed? Is it wrong?

 

[elvisman]

Elvis,

For what it is worth and I’m sure it will mean nothing to you, but you do not come across as defending but rather offending and your testimony becomes blurred. I won’t say another word on it because enough has already been said and you do not seem to take friendly and well meaning critiques very well. I hope I am completely wrong.

God bless you.

If you regard the truth as “blurred” - that is something you have to deal with.
As for me - I am defending the historic Christian position on the matter. As for not being able to take criticism very well - show me some evidence of that because I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about.

What I always find interesting, if not humorous, is how Protestants, Muslims, cafeteria Catholics and others change what has been taught for 2000 years based on their own opinions or those of equally prideful and rebellious men.

What these groups fail to remember is that the Bible didn’t just fall from the sky. The NT was written, compiled and delared canonical by the Catholic Church. The Bible came from the Church - not the other way around. The truths espoused in Scripture have been taught for thousands of years - yet YOU and others know better?
Ummm . . . now, who’s blurring the truth here?

 

[planten]

You are right you cannot not fully understand it. Look at it this way. I am a father, a son and a husband; yet I am one with 3 natures or essence, but despite all those I am just one. Each person or essence has a specific duty, yet I am one. All three are the same one and cannot be separated from the one. Hope that helps.

The analogy you have provided is for a grown up man. Just think about a young man who is not married. He is niether a husband nor a father. Also in your example, you are a father and a son and a husband. If we truely fit your example to your Triune God, then the husband will be the holy spirit.

Because you are the father. i.e. father God.
You are a son. That is Jesus, the son God.
You are a husband. So that must be equivalent to the holy ghost.

Do you mean like that?? Please tell. YOu are not only a father and son and husband, you are also a brother and uncle too. What about those relations. You will need many headed god.

 

[spn82756]

The analogy you have provided is for a grown up man. Just think about a young man who is not married. He is niether a husband nor a father. Also in your example, you are a father and a son and a husband. If we truely fit your example to you God, then the hsuband will be the holy spirit.

Because you are the father. i.e. father God.
You are a son. That is Jesus, the son God.
You are a husband. So that must be equivalent to the holy ghost.

Do you mean like that?? Please tell.

Planten…

You’re being too specific with his example. He doesn’t need to use an example for a young boy…young women or anything else. His example speaks for itself. If you’d like you can substitute wife for husband…daughter for son and mother for father. The women’s essence is still one. They cannot be separated. That is not to say that God is a woman. It’s just using his example differently. And the comment about needing to be a many headed god does not seem sincere at all.

 

[planten]

Planten…

You’re being too specific with his example. He doesn’t need to use an example for a young boy…young women or anything else. His example speaks for itself. If you’d like you can substitute wife for husband…daughter for son and mother for father. The women’s essence is still one. They cannot be separated. That is not to say that God is a woman. It’s just using his example differently. And the comment about needing to be a many headed god does not seem sincere at all.

Yes, I understood it partly. I edited my post too. Please see that friend is a brother and uncle too. So the relation does not remain limited to father, son and husband only. It spreads into few more branches.

 

[revmitchell]

Jesus can’t be God because the writings of Jews, Old Testament, sayings of Moses and other Israeli prophets will not allow it. Jesus was a Jew and he belonged to the Jews. Theree(sic) was not any christian to be seen.

The writings of the Jews are not a determining factor in whether Jesus is God or not. But Paul being a Jew wrote that Jesus is God.

Jesus never sid that he was God. The theory that Jesus was God is a derived theory, not a direct word of speech. The derived theory can be wrong too. It is such a serious subject that it cannot go un-noticed. The Muslims do not believe and do not allow any other God beside the One God.

Jesus very well did say he was God:

The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

**“I and the Father are one.” **The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” (John 10:30-33)

This is the reason for throwing stones and the very reason he was killed.

The problem of the Christians is that they believe in three gods (Father, son and holy ghost). But then they have to run back to One God also. Why all that futile exercise??

While simple we can see that an egg has three parts, the white, the yolk, and the shell. Each one can serve its on individual purpose seperately from the other but it is still one egg. If this can be true of an egg then it can be similarly true of God.

It is not good to take preferred meanings from such words as: “The Father and I are one…”

It is good as this is the way the Jews understood it and wanted him stoned for saying it.

One of those was that he was the King of the Jews. He denied it.

He did not deny it He admitted it:

Mat 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

The other was that he was God or son of God. Jesus explained that too and did not admit it. So why should the christians take up the same stand as that of the Jews who were enemies of Jesus in his time.

Incorrect, He did claim it and the jews wanted to stone Him for it:

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,** I am the Son of God? **

Whatever, the people of Jesus (Jews) did to Jesus as accusations, the same things are believed by the present day christians{sic}. We Muslims do not believe those things. Jesus never said in direct words that he was God. So no one should say such things by own derived meanings.

You have been greatly mislead.

I hope that this riddle will soon be solved, somehow. We Muslims believe in Jesus to be a very good man, i.e. a prophet and that is the highest status for any man. That is as much as we Muslims can allow. There had been many prophets before Jesus. It is not anything unusual.

The Messiah was prophesied about by all those prophets you speak of. It was their main purpose. Jesus is that Messiah. He fulfilled more than 300 prophesies during His earthly ministry.

Christians live by faith and are redeemed by the finished work of the cross. Muslims must live by the scales and are never assured of their salvation. Christians have all confidence because we know that we cannot atone for ourselves as it takes a perfect person to make that atonement. Jesus is that perfect sacrifice and redeemer.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[hamba2han]

Most non-Christian would not say that based on the context, because earlier, the Apostle, Thomas said he would not believe He has risen unless he could pick his finger where the nails were.

Here is the context of the verse and you cannot read it any other way than what it explicitly states.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

I would think it is not only easier but more significantly, a lot more accurate to interpret Biblical stories based on our own understanding of human emotions and reactions rather than to read the meaning of these stories based on any “official” interpretation.

Are these “official” interpreters of the Bible more human than the rest of us that would make their interpretation more accurate than anyone else?

Like I have pointed out, suppose you believe a beloved brother had been killed in a motoring accident and then after a few days you then receive a phone call from him informing that he is alive and well → What would your own reaction be?

I would think that for most people, the initial reaction on hearing their “departed” brother’s voice on the phone would be one of stunned silence, unable to say anything at all… and then the following reaction would likely be to mutter the expression “oh my God!” or another similar expression at some point in the ensuing conversation with the brother who has come back from the dead so to speak.

If this is the normal reaction of people today if faced with such a situation, then why should the reaction and words of Thomas be any different back then 2000 years ago?

 

[planten]

The writings of the Jews are not a determining factor in whether Jesus is God or not. But Paul being a Jew wrote that Jesus is God.

Jesus very well did say he was God:

Please show me where he said he was God? He was a Jew and could never utter such words.

This the reason he was killed…

If he was killed he cannot even be a true prophet. See Deut 18:20 please.

Mat 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Another weak point. They accused Jesus of being the king of the Jews (which could have been a rebellous statement), and his enemies wanted to trap him somehow. He did not agree to that. He said “You say it.” It meant I do not say it. You are saying it.

The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

Another weak point. You people are changing, amending the text of the bible in the name of improvement every day… That is illegal. I read in the king James version as follows:

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

.

Do you see the word “Born” in your post. Why is that?? It was not in the previous tarnslations. Such things are being done to facilitate illegal matters into the church teachings.

 

[spn82756]

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

You should know that I Am is the name God gave to Moses when Moses asked what he should tell the Israelites what God’s name is. The Jews of Jesus’ time knew that! They knew what Jesus was saying. That He is God!! That’s why they wanted him dead…for saying that He is the great I AM.

Satan came along disguised as an angel of the Lord and has mislead millions of muslims. BTW…if islam is so great…then why do you have to force people to remain islam under pain of death? A Christian is free to leave Christianity anytime. No pain of mortal death attached. Just condeming him/her self to etenal damnation for converting to another false religion.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

CARM is a non-Catholic website with some false teachings on it, but they are right about the divinity of Christ. Here are some Bible passages they compiled showing His divinity.

CARM:

Bible verses that show Jesus is Divine

Following are verses used to show that Jesus is God in flesh. The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible.

John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 - “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 5:18 - “For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 8:24 - “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.”
Note: In the Greek, “He” is not there.

John 8:58 - “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

Exodus 3:14 - “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM’; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

John 10:30-33 - “I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

John 20:28 - "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Col. 2:9 - “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”

Phil. 2:5-8 - “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Heb. 1:8 - "But of the Son He says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.”
Quoted from Psalm 45:6, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.”

Jesus is worshipped - Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.

Matt. 4:10 - “Then Jesus said to him, 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.”’”

Matt. 2:2 - “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”

Matt. 2:11 - “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.”

Matt. 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Matt. 28:9 - “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.”

John 9:35-38 - “Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered and said, “And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.”

Heb. 1:6 - “And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.’”