Is Belief In His Deity Essencial to salvation?

[planten]

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am

You should know that I Am is the name God gave to Moses when Moses asked what he should tell the Israelites what God’s name is. The Jews of Jesus’ time knew that! They knew what Jesus was saying. That He is God!! That’s why they wanted him dead…for saying that He is the great I AM.

I was pointing out the word “Born” which was not in the previous good translations, to prove that you people are amending the bible daily in the name of improvements. Does the sacred book need improvements?? Human indulgence??
First of all, you do not have any standard text of any original bible. Then you are amending the different translations, upon transaltions upon translations. That is not fair. You have a home made bibleNT.

Satan came along disguised as an angel of the Lord and has mislead millions of muslims. BTW…if islam is so great…then why do you have to force people to remain islam under pain of death? A Christian is free to leave Christianity anytime. No pain of mortal death attached. Just condeming him/her self to etenal damnation for converting to another false religion.

That is a different subject. Satan never came near Muhammad. But we know that Satan took Jesus around on trips, testing him for forty days. That is in your bibleNT. That was real bad. Bad show.

You say you have freedom. Too much freedom has spoiled you and your religion. In Islam, there is no punishment for conversion. If some ignorant Muslims are doing something bad then that is not the fault of Islam.

But we have a teaching in the Quran “There is no compulsion in (any) religion.” Al-Quran 2:256.

You cannot even show such good words from your bibleNT. Because you have nothing there.

So please forget your bad wishes about Satan visiting Muhammad. That is the devil talking inside you. You have no proof of any such things from your bible. But your bibleNT gives a good proof of the devil tempting your god (Jesus). Would any one like such bad thing and would any sensible man believe that the devil (Satan) could tempt your God Almighty???

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Forgetting CARM and the New Testament for a bit, the Old Testament prophecies also pointed out that the coming Messiah would be God.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. . . . " (Isaiah 9:6-7)

"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. " (Psalm 45:6-7)

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. " (Micah 5:2)

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. " (Psalm 2:7)

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. . . . The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. " (Psalm 110:1,4)

“Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son’s name? Surely you know!” (Proverbs 30:4)

The Old Testament also reveals the nature of the Trinity in the passages in Genesis and Isaiah where God refers to Himself in plural:

Genesis 1:26-27

26
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.”
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”-- (Genesis 3:22)

“Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” (Genesis 11:7)

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” (Isaiah 6:8)

 

[spn82756]

Satan never came near Muhammad. But we know that Satan took Jesus around on trips, testing him for forty days. That is in your bibleNT. That was real bad. Bad show.

Satan didn’t test Jesus for 40 days. Jesus prayed in the desert for 40 days. Satan unsuccessfully tested Jesus 3 times in one day. Satan knew and knows that Jesus is the great I AM.

You say you have freedom. Too much freedom has spoiled you and your religion. In Islam, there is no punishment for conversion. If some ignorant Muslims are doing something bad then that is not the fault of Islam.

But we have a teaching in the Quran “There is no compulsion in (any) religion.” Al-Quran 2:256.

Freedom is only bad when misused. There is no freedom in Islam. And you cannot simply decide to change your religion. How many countries where islam is the dominant religion are there strict penalties…even death for leaving islam? Many!!!
Do you need them listed?

You cannot even show such good words from your bibleNT. Because you have nothing there.

We have the greatest Words ever in the NT. The Words from the Word made Flesh!

So please forget your bad wishes about Satan visiting Muhammad. That is the devil talking inside you. You have no proof of any such things from your bible. But your bibleNT gives a good proof of the devil tempting your god (Jesus). Would any one like such bad thing and would any sensible man believe that the devil (Satan) could tempt your God Almighty

…and the devil failed in tempting Jesus. He mislead Muhammad by pretending to be the angel Gabriel. Gabriel is the angel that announced the conception of the Son of the Most High. God…the Word made Flesh.

 

[Nine_Two]

I would think it is not only easier but more significantly, a lot more accurate to interpret Biblical stories based on our own understanding of human emotions and reactions rather than to read the meaning of these stories based on any “official” interpretation.

Are these “official” interpreters of the Bible more human than the rest of us that would make their interpretation more accurate than anyone else?

Like I have pointed out, suppose you believe a beloved brother had been killed in a motoring accident and then after a few days you then receive a phone call from him informing that he is alive and well → What would your own reaction be?

I would think that for most people, the initial reaction on hearing their “departed” brother’s voice on the phone would be one of stunned silence, unable to say anything at all… and then the following reaction would likely be to mutter the expression “oh my God!” or another similar expression at some point in the ensuing conversation with the brother who has come back from the dead so to speak.

If this is the normal reaction of people today if faced with such a situation, then why should the reaction and words of Thomas be any different back then 2000 years ago?

Hamba, I take it you didn’t read my post, or decided to ignore it. The Greek is very clear the he is calling Christ both Lord and God. Don’t take the English and mangle it until it agrees with you, I have a hard time believing you’d find doing the same thing to the Koran acceptable.

 

[Nine_Two]

Another weak point. You people are changing, amending the text of the bible in the name of improvement every day… That is illegal. I read in the king James version as follows:

.

Do you see the word “Born” in your post. Why is that?? It was not in the previous tarnslations. Such things are being done to facilitate illegal matters into the church teachings.

Actually the word in question is εγενομαι, the aorist (type of past tense) of “become” or “to exist” so it can be translated either “before Abraham was” or “before Abraham was born”. They both state the same thing.

edit: To comment, if you are going to make accusations of bibles adding in things, you need to use the Greek as your proof. I will fully admit that there are a lot of bibles out there that smuge meanings of words for political reasons, but I have never seen words added, as you claim “born” was.

 

[hamba2han]

Hamba, I take it you didn’t read my post, or decided to ignore it. The Greek is very clear the he is calling Christ both Lord and God. Don’t take the English and mangle it until it agrees with you, I have a hard time believing you’d find doing the same thing to the Koran acceptable.

In order to figure out and analyze the real story told in scriptures, people should place a lot more faith in their own understanding of basic human emotions and reactions than any understanding that they might have of the Greek language… or any other language for that matter.

And besides, I am pretty sure that Jesus (pbuh) and the disciples did not communicate with one another in Greek.

 

[spn82756]

In order to figure out and analyze the real story told in scriptures, people should place a lot more faith in their own understanding of basic human emotions and reactions than any understanding that they might have of the Greek language… or any other language for that matter.

And besides, I am pretty sure that Jesus (pbuh) and the disciples did not communicate with one another in Greek.

But the NT was written in Greek! That’s the original language and wording.

 

[hamba2han]

But the NT was written in Greek! That’s the original language and wording.

Since Thomas did not speak to Jesus (pbuh) in Greek, this is not really relevant since any translation would result in some loss of meaning.

And does anyone know who it was that recorded this dialogue between Thomas and Jesus (pbuh)?

 

[spn82756]

Since Thomas did not speak to Jesus (pbuh) in Greek, this is not really relevant since any translation would result in some loss of meaning.

And does anyone know who it was that recorded this dialogue between Thomas and Jesus (pbuh)?

Yes we do. It was St John

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name.

Unfortunately…you are a doubting Thomas. The penalty is clear.

 

[Nine_Two]

Since Thomas did not speak to Jesus (pbuh) in Greek, this is not really relevant since any translation would result in some loss of meaning.

And does anyone know who it was that recorded this dialogue between Thomas and Jesus (pbuh)?

Umm yes it does, because the person who wrote it wrote something very clearly in Greek. There is no room for interpretation on the Greek.

As for who recorded it, it is in the name of the gospel. St. John, the apostle of Christ witnessed it, and wrote it.

 

[jakasaki]

QUOTE=planten;6167861

… snip…
**
You people are reading too much into things and sometime you are taking things literally. Could you please explain the son of God literally?? or Spiritually??**

… snip …

** We cannot permit you to take far fetched meanings of the words of the bible.** If Thomas said a few unrelated (ambigous) words, it does not make Jesus as God. Please note that making a man into God is a very serious matter. The Jews would never do that. It cannot rest upon the words of just one man (Thomas) who was also a high level Jew.

… snip …

QUOTE

Whoa there Nellie… whoa!!! Hold on to your horses. !!!

You, a muslim poster from the following of the islamic Ahmadi are telling Catholics & Church Tradition what “they are reading too much into things”.

It’s one thing to tell the Christians on this board that they are “reading too much into things about islam”, but don’t you even try when you come on here with islamic blinders on and try to “interpret” The Bible for us.

And WHO IS **WE **in the “”“We cannot permit you to take far fetched meanings of the words of the bible.”""

Since when are islamic Ahmadi muslims OR ANY islamic muslims allowed to permit us Christians in anything.

How DARE you!!!

 

[spn82756]

Yes…you are right. The respect he had from me is gone.

But you know…he needs lots of prayers. There is always a chance that he and hamba and servantofallah will have the cloak removed from their eyes and see the truth. Other than through prayer…they have no hope of coming to the truth of Christ. The moon god is certainly not going to save them. He is an invitation to eternal misery.

 

[jakasaki]

No. You don’t even have to know Greek to see it if you bother to look it up.

"Ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου"

και means “and” so you just have to look at what is on each side, you’ll notice they have the exact same structure.

Going into what you do have to know Greek to get, both use the nominative form, “Oh my God” would be in the accusative form. So no, he’s saying “My lord and my God.”

I know exactly what this says,

Ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

MY LORD AND MY GOD!

 

[spn82756]

I know exactly what this says,

Ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

MY LORD AND MY GOD!

 

[jakasaki]

The analogy you have provided is for a grown up man. Just think about a young man who is not married. He is niether a husband nor a father. Also in your example, you are a father and a son and a husband. If we truely fit your example to your Triune God, then the husband will be the holy spirit.

Because you are the father. i.e. father God.
You are a son. That is Jesus, the son God.
You are a husband. So that must be equivalent to the holy ghost.

Do you mean like that?? Please tell. YOu are not only a father and son and husband, you are also a brother and uncle too. What about those relations. You will need many headed god.

Planten, what is your purpose on here by thread-jacking. If you have nothing to contribute to the thread topic then do not respond.

We have gove over “Trinity” with you a bazzilion times.

This is not the thread for islamic ignorance. Take it elsewhere.

 

[spn82756]

Planten, what is your purpose on here by thread-jacking. If you have nothing to contribute to the thread topic then do not respond.

We have gove over “Trinity” with you a bazzilion times.

This is not the thread for islamic ignorance. Take it elsewhere.

Amen!

 

[spn82756]

Muslims have come to a Christian forum to try to discredit. That’s it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I once had respect for planten…but he is a cult of islam that most of islam denies being islam. What else can we say. They are lost and need prayers.

 

[jakasaki]

In order to figure out and analyze the real story told in scriptures, people should place a lot more faith in their own understanding of basic human emotions and reactions than any understanding that they might have of the Greek language… or any other language for that matter.

And besides, I am pretty sure that Jesus (pbuh) and the disciples did not communicate with one another in Greek./

 

[jakasaki]

Yes, I understood it partly. I edited my post too. Please see that friend is a brother and uncle too. So the relation does not remain limited to father, son and husband only. It spreads into few more branches.

It’s a sad shame when you hijack a thread that has **NOTHING **to do with the Trinity and posters entertain you.

 

[spn82756]

Oh really?