Is Billy Graham Saved? (Merged with Billy Graham thread.)

[Prayer_Warrior]

We are not in a position to judge Billy Graham’s salvation. God alone is the just judge.

However, it should be recognized that the Catholic Church counts baptized non-Catholic Christians as part of the Church although in an imperfect communion. “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church…” (CCC 838).

Our Church teaches that we are saved by God’s grace. We initially receive sanctifying grace at our baptism when we are “born again of water and Spirit” (John 3:5) in the “bath of rebirth” (Titus 3:5). Faith is also necessary for salvation because grace comes to us through faith (Eph 2:8). Catholics and Orthodox have a special “advantage” when it comes to God’s grace, which is the Sacramental life we lead. The Sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation are particularly life transforming because of the grace we receive from them. The Eucharist, as has been stated, is the source and summit of Christian life because the Eucharist is Jesus Christ! He is the Way, the Truth and the LIFE. So, it is easy to see why He said " Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." Worthy reception of the Eucharist is a guarantee of grace and life. Non Catholics/Orthodox do not have access to this font of grace. This is one of the primary points I think that John Martignoni is trying to make. We must remember that non Catholic Christians do not receive the grace of the majority of the Sacraments. We must, in charity, lead them to the truth of Jesus in the Sacramental life. John’s point was that we should assume one is assured of salvation because they have faith and seem to live good lives–that is a serious error of many protestant groups.

On the other hand, through the authoritative teaching of the Church we learn that He Himself is not bound by the Sacraments (CCC 1257). This is specifically noted in the Catechism in the discussion of baptism. We must therefore recognize that God can work outside of the Sacraments according to His will. This probably why the Church authoritatively teaches at CCC 847:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[steve_b]

We are not in a position to judge Billy Graham’s salvation. God alone is the just judge.

However, it should be recognized that the Catholic Church counts baptized non-Catholic Christians as part of the Church although in an imperfect communion. “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church…” (CCC 838).

those who are not of one mind with Christ and the members of His one Church, by their rejection of the Catholic doctrines, they by doing so, reject Jesus who has instituted the Catholic Church. Although they maybe members of the Body of Christ through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are still outside the Church, and they don’t avail themselves of the most important gifts, the true faith, the true Church, & the sacraments, for inheriting salvation.
P:

Our Church teaches that we are saved by God’s grace. We initially receive sanctifying grace at our baptism when we are “born again of water and Spirit” (John 3:5) in the “bath of rebirth” (Titus 3:5). Faith is also necessary for salvation because grace comes to us through faith (Eph 2:8). Catholics and Orthodox have a special “advantage” when it comes to God’s grace, which is the Sacramental life we lead. The Sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation are particularly life transforming because of the grace we receive from them. The Eucharist, as has been stated, is the source and summit of Christian life because the Eucharist is Jesus Christ! He is the Way, the Truth and the LIFE. So, it is easy to see why He said " Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." Worthy reception of the Eucharist is a guarantee of grace and life. Non Catholics/Orthodox do not have access to this font of grace. This is one of the primary points I think that John Martignoni is trying to make. We must remember that non Catholic Christians do not receive the grace of the majority of the Sacraments. We must, in charity, lead them to the truth of Jesus in the Sacramental life. John’s point was that we should assume one is assured of salvation because they have faith and seem to live good lives–that is a serious error of many protestant groups.

I think you meant to say, we should NOT assume.
P:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too** may**achieve eternal salvation.

As we know

May ≠ will
May ≠ probably
May ≠ any gurantees
May = possible, even if only remotely possible.

For example

If I say it may rain tomorrow that’s not a very good prediction. It may not rain, and if it doesn’t rain, I didn’t make any strong predictions, I only said it may rain.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

those who are not of one mind with Christ and the members of His one Church, by their rejection of the Catholic doctrines, they by doing so, reject Jesus who has instituted the Catholic Church. Although they maybe members of the Body of Christ through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are still outside the Church, and they don’t avail themselves of the most important gifts, the true faith, the true Church, & the sacraments, for inheriting salvation.

I disagree that they are outside of the Catholic Church as the CCC clearly says that they are part of the Catholic Church, although in imperfect communion. They are, of course, “outside” the Sacraments aside from baptism. They may reject those doctrines based on ignorance. Remember, that for a sin to be mortal it must be a grave matter, done with full knowledge and complete consent. The decision to reject the Church is a grave matter, to be sure, but it is up to God to judge whether such a decision was based on full knowledge and complete consent. I certainly agree to the statement about availing themselves to the gifts, etc.

I think you meant to say, we should NOT assume.

Yes, we should NOT assume, that was a typo.

As we know

May ≠ will
May ≠ probably
May ≠ any gurantees
May = possible, even if only remotely possible.

For example

If I say it may rain tomorrow that’s not a very good prediction. It may not rain, and if it doesn’t rain, I didn’t make any strong predictions, I only said it may rain.

All I’m saying is that the Church teaches salvation is possible for non-Catholics who do not receive the Eucharist. It would seem that some of the posts on this thread are saying it is impossible. I know for a fact there are Catholics on this forum who believe only Catholics can be saved. They seem proud to talk about the authority of the Church but then refuse to submit to it on this matter.

I believe that the Lord has chosen to apply sanctifying grace through the Sacraments. I praise God that most protestants receive a proper baptism for I am firmly convinced that we are reborn in our baptism. I do not assume people are saved on faith alone and am in agreement with John Martignoni about the necessity to keep evangelizing. I’m only saying it is possible that God would save non Catholics and I’m not commenting on the likelihood.

 

[jmcrae]

The real question is, Would Billy Graham have a better chance of being saved (rather than an off-chance and the hope of a miracle) if he were a good Catholic?

I think the answer to that is a resounding “Yes.”

 

[foundmyfaith]

Jody,

To be clear, the biblical canon was compiled by and for the Catholic Church at the synods of Hippo and Carthage, in 393 and 397ad for instruction, teaching but also to have a universal set of readings at the Catholic Mass. And authors of its books and writings were the first Catholic Bishops and Catholic Christians.

The Church Christ established is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

 

[steve_b]

[Prayer Warrior]:

I disagree that they are outside of the Catholic Church as the CCC clearly says that they are part of the Catholic Church, although in imperfect communion. They are, of course, “outside” the Sacraments aside from baptism. They may reject those doctrines based on ignorance. Remember, that for a sin to be mortal it must be a grave matter, done with full knowledge and complete consent. The decision to reject the Church is a grave matter, to be sure, but it is up to God to judge whether such a decision was based on full knowledge and complete consent. I certainly agree to the statement about availing themselves to the gifts, etc.

If they were “in” the Church they could take part in the sacraments of the Church. There’s no 2 system of rules here, 1 for Catholics and 1 for Protestants when it comes to one being “in the Church”.

As the Bishops write in the Misselettes, they can’t receive the Eucharist because that would assume a unity that doesn’t exist.

And that entails a broad subject
P:

All I’m saying is that the Church teaches salvation is possible for non-Catholics who do not receive the Eucharist.

Whether one ever receives the Eucharist or not, the Church says it that way because the Church isn’t the ultimate judge of a person’s soul. However,

That said, scripture says, those who divide from the Catholic Church and remain so, i.e. die in that state will not inherit heaven. Galatians 5:19-21 . The Church can’t contradict that . Paul isn’t making that judgement. It’s really the Hs inspiring Paul to make that warning. John 14:25-26 and the HS received that warning from Jesus. John 16:12-15 therefore it’s Jesus the judge of all, who is telling telling the HS through Paul, how HE will Judge that.

If that is so for Catholics who leave the Church, does it make any sense at all, that one who is NOT in the Church is saved?

The Church theorizes that a person who is innocently ignorant may be saved. Innocent is an important qualification. One who has their fingerprints all over their own ignorance, i.e. they purposely ignore, or avoid knowing what they should know, they are no longer innocently ignorant, and ignorance is no longer an escape for them. 1791

Look at this another way. If they WILL be saved anyway, then there is no reason to be Catholic. And we know WHO desperately is against the Catholic Church ergo people becoming Catholic. …SATAN.

May be saved, is a reasonable statement. It just leaves it open for the possibility. There are no gurantees.
P:

It would seem that some of the posts on this thread are saying it is impossible. I know for a fact there are Catholics on this forum who believe only Catholics can be saved. They seem proud to talk about the authority of the Church but then refuse to submit to it on this matter.

Let’s put it in the words of Our Lord.John 17:20-23 , John 14:23-24 , Matthew 28:16-20
here we are 2000 years later. Given the topic of the thread, I might ask, at what point can a highly learned person in religion and theology, continue to avoid the obvious. Especially considering some of the brightest scholars who are converts to Catholicism, say the evidence for Catholicism was overwhelming.
P:

I believe that the Lord has chosen to apply sanctifying grace through the Sacraments. I praise God that most protestants receive a proper baptism for I am firmly convinced that we are reborn in our baptism. I do not assume people are saved on faith alone and am in agreement with John Martignoni about the necessity to keep evangelizing. I’m only saying it is possible that God would save non Catholics and I’m not commenting on the likelihood.

If He “would” save non Catholics, as in making this an absolute reality for all non Catholics, then there is no reason to be Catholic. There is then a complete contradiction in scripture, for God to make the following warning. Matthew 28:16-20 , Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 It would make those passages nonsense

 

[steve_b]

:

I disagree that they are outside of the Catholic Church as the CCC clearly says that they are part of the Catholic Church, although in imperfect communion. They are, of course, “outside” the Sacraments aside from baptism. They may reject those doctrines based on ignorance. Remember, that for a sin to be mortal it must be a grave matter, done with full knowledge and complete consent. The decision to reject the Church is a grave matter, to be sure, but it is up to God to judge whether such a decision was based on full knowledge and complete consent. I certainly agree to the statement about availing themselves to the gifts, etc.

If they were “in” the Church they could take part in the sacraments of the Church. There’s no 2 system of rules here, 1 for Catholics and 1 for Protestants when it comes to one being “in the Church”.

As the Bishops write in the Misselettes, they (non Catholics) can’t receive the Eucharist because that would assume a unity that doesn’t exist.

ergo they are outside the Church
P:

All I’m saying is that the Church teaches salvation is possible for non-Catholics who do not receive the Eucharist.

I was just addressing “non Catholic” types, whether one ever received the Eucharist or not.

1st type

• Those who divide from the Catholic Church and remain so, i.e. die in that state will not inherit heaven [Galatians 5:19-21 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 5) . The Church can’t contradict that . Paul was inspired by the HS to make that warning [John 14:25-26 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 14) , and the HS received that warning from Jesus [John 16:12-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 16) . Therefore it’s Jesus the judge of all, who is telling the HS through Paul, how HE will Judge that. IMV, A person would have to be bonafide nuts to second guess Jesus on that.

2nd type

• The Church in her compassion and wisdom says that a non Catholic who is innocently ignorant of what they should know, may be saved. Innocently ignorant and may are important qualifications. One who has their fingerprints all over their own ignorance, i.e. they purposely ignore, or avoid knowing or reject what they should know, and feigned ignorance isn’t ignorance, then they are no longer innocently ignorant, they are guilty, and ignorance is no longer an escape for them. [1791 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1791)

it also makes the point one who is not Catholic needs to be Catholic, and remain so, for salvation.

Looking at this another way. If those outside the Church WILL ( in the affirmative) be saved, then what’s the reason for the warnings from Jesus, and why even be Catholic? We know that thinking doesn’t come from Jesus who wants everyone in His Church because he desires all to be saved. WHO then is it that is absolutely against the Catholic Church, and people becoming Catholic?. …SATAN.

therefore, to say for those outside the Church, one May be saved, only leaves it open for a possibility.
P:

It would seem that some of the posts on this thread are saying it is impossible. I know for a fact there are Catholics on this forum who believe only Catholics can be saved. They seem proud to talk about the authority of the Church but then refuse to submit to it on this matter.

What Our Lord builds [Matthew 16:13-19 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 16) , is perfectly one with no division [John 17:20-23 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 17) . And [John 14:23-24 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 14) we are to do whatever He commands. The Church is to [Matthew 28:16-20 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 28) go around the world teaching the world what is necessary to be saved. So here we are 2000 years later. Re: the topic of the thread, one could ask, at what point can a highly learned non-Catholic person in religion and theology like Billy Graham, who as I hear even studied once at a Catholic university, continue to avoid converting?
P:

I believe that the Lord has chosen to apply sanctifying grace through the Sacraments. I praise God that most protestants receive a proper baptism for I am firmly convinced that we are reborn in our baptism. I do not assume people are saved on faith alone and am in agreement with John Martignoni about the necessity to keep evangelizing. I’m only saying it is possible that God would save non Catholics and I’m not commenting on the likelihood.

We can’t forget, in Protestantism’s DNA is schism from the CC and heresy. Even if one today isn’t personally guilty of what their ancestors did, schism and heresy is condemned forever by Jesus and they are in it. There is no expiration to that condemnation. That’s why even the one today, who personally isn’t guilty of division, DOES become guilty once they learn the Catholic Church is established by Jesus for the salvation of souls and refuses to enter or ramain in her. [846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846)

 

[Darryl_B]

To clarify, I was born and raised and baptized a Catholic.Made all the sacraments; 1st communion and confirmation. But it wasn’t until someone started asking me questions about what i believed in and why that I picked up a bible to find my answers. The more i read, the more i realized I didn’t know. And the more questions I had the more I tried to seek answers, including going to my priest. I still was not satisfied with his answers. So I started to study the Catholic church including it’s origins. And what I started to find out, contradicted the bible. So I brought this to my priest asking him why it contradicted the bible. For example, Catholics believe in purgatory, yet the bible tells us in 2 Cor. 5:8 “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” There is no 'holding" place any longer. There was, but it was called paradise where the prophets of old, like Abraham, went to when he died. And it was during the time that Jesus died on the cross and his Resurrection that the bible says (Eph.4:9) that he went to set the captives free (those who believed in him) and to take the very keys to hell away from Satan. Otherwise, how could we ever claim to have victory over death? And now it is empty and there is no longer a need for it. And that’s why it says (when speaking to the believers, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Anyway, my priest said that the Catechism was written by Pope John Paul II in 1985 and became the official text of reference. And that it can “over rule” the bible when it seems contradictory. I said, but why did we need another authoritative text? Why wasn’t the bible good enough? And thus began my journey away from Catholicism and man-made laws. Jesus is all I needed. I love the word of God. I love studying the scriptures in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I am standing on the promises of God that if I confess with my mouth and believe in my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, I will be saved. I have that assurance. And I have the peace of God. For the bible tell me that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truths.

I am sorry that I put on my profile that I was Catholic. I was. But I am now a Born again, spirit filled child of God. I do believe that the bible, Old and New Testaments were written for ALL people. Not just the Catholics. That is so very presumptuous to think that. Remember, it was writtened and intended, originally, for the Jews. Not the Catholics. MAN puts all these extra rules and regulations and divisions on rtheir eligions, separating people. Walls and divisions and that’s why people can’t get along. First of all, I didn’t know anyone can read your profile. I thought it was only for the one who set up this web-site. (I am not very computer savey) And 2ndly, if I told you I was not Catholic any longer that you would not allow me to share with you. And I didn’t want there to be walls up between us. Obviously you all love the Lord and have accepted him as your savior. Why can’t we share that which we have in common and leave our differences aside? But perhaps we can’t. Which is too bad. I still enjoyed sharing with you all and thank you for letting me talk. God bless you. Jody

Interesting. You are building the walls and then asking Catholics to tear them down?

 

[yogosans14]

Actually, he isn’t offering his opinion. Nowhere did he say that a person goes to Heaven or Hell based on whether or not he receives the Eucharist. That is a misreading of what he said. However, doesn’t Scripture somewhere say that unless one eats the flesh of the Son of Man and drinks His blood, he has no life within him? So, it is written, isn’t it?

But, that is not the main point of the newsletter - deciding who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. The main point is the question - how would you answer his question: Is a person better off by receiving the Eucharist vs. not receiving the Eucharist? Yes or no? Is a person’s chance of being saved increased by receiving the Eucharist? Yes or no?

Um, Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace not by works. I dont see how the Eucharist will help our changes getting into Heaven. The only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, he is the way the truth and the life. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN…not “you must recieve the eucharist”

 

[jmcrae]

Um, Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace not by works. I dont see how the Eucharist will help our changes getting into Heaven. The only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, he is the way the truth and the life. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN…not “you must recieve the eucharist”

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. - John 6:53

The Eucharist is Jesus.

How we “receive Jesus” is by consuming the Eucharist in a worthy manner. Frequent worthy reception of the Eucharist gives grace.

 

[Darryl_B]

Um, Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace not by works. I dont see how the Eucharist will help our changes getting into Heaven. The only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, he is the way the truth and the life. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN…not “you must recieve the eucharist”

Grace is extended by God. But Noah received grace where others didn’t. What is the difference? Lot received grace where others didn’t. What is the difference? Abraham received grace where others didn’t. What is the difference? David received grace where others didn’t. What is the difference?

You must be born again to enter the household of God, but you must also eat at His table. That is not a work. That is a privilege as a son. What did the Father do for the ex-prodigal son?

 

[Miriam1947]

Um, Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace not by works. I dont see how the Eucharist will help our changes getting into Heaven. The only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, he is the way the truth and the life. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN…not “you must recieve the eucharist”

See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5) This is how you are born again.

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By enduring to the end (Matt.24:13)

Thank you PRmerger

Catholics use the entire New Testament not just a verse here and there.

 

[steve_b]

Um, Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace not by works.

Ask yourself, why Protestants stop at vs 9 and skip vs 10?

**Eph 2: **8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

When Jesus crowns our good works He is really crowning the work He has done and is doing in us. Without good works, we are not doing what we are created to do, and will be like the fig tree who didn’t do what it was created to do…ergo it was cut down and thrown in the fire. [Matthew 3:10 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 3) **& **[Luke 13:6-10 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 13) ]
y:

I dont see how the Eucharist will help our changes getting into Heaven. The only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ, he is the way the truth and the life. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN…not “you must recieve the eucharist”

Protestants can’t make sense of that as Protestants.

I’ll give you an example. Deliberately missing mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday is a huge offense to God.

(btw, Protestants don’t have the Eucharist, because they have no valid holy orders)

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Notice

• deliberately missing mass on Sunday, is already a very serious sin worthy of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries
• because there is no sacrifice for sins as a result of one deliberately missing mass.
• It is a profaning of the blood of the covenant for deliberately missing mass
• It spurns the son of God and outrages the spirit of grace for deliberately missing mass

One will ask, why does missing mass do all that?

• the sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant refers to the Eucharist. The summit of our faith.
• [Matthew 26:26-28 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 26). This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus the son of God said those words instituting the Eucharist the night before He died.*. *Jesus further describes the importance of the Eucharist for the soul.
• [John 6:53-54 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 6)* unless you* eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you*. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day*. Life of the soul is grace in the Eucharist*.*

Therefore, the one who deliberately misses the Eucharist on Sunday, after being given the knowledge of truth, says in effect to Jesus, I’m interested in other things more than this.

so to recap for the one who deliberately misses mass (the Eucharist)

• no sacrifice for sin is left for THEM.
• they profane the blood of the covenant
• they spurn the son of God & outrage the spirit of grace
• judgment awaits them

all that for deliberately missing mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday!!!

I didn’t make that up. It’s right from scripture.

 

[Darryl_B]

Ask yourself, why Protestants stop at vs 9 and skip vs 10?

**Eph 2: **8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

When Jesus crowns our good works He is really crowning the work He has done and is doing in us. Without good works, we are not doing what we are created to do, and will be like the fig tree who didn’t do what it was created to do…ergo it was cut down and thrown in the fire. [Matthew 3:10 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 3) **& **[Luke 13:6-10 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 13) ]

Protestants can’t make sense of that as Protestants.

I’ll give you an example. Deliberately missing mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday is a huge offense to God.

(btw, Protestants don’t have the Eucharist, because they have no valid holy orders)

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Notice

• deliberately missing mass on Sunday, is already a very serious sin worthy of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries
• because there is no sacrifice for sins as a result of one deliberately missing mass.
• It is a profaning of the blood of the covenant for deliberately missing mass
• It spurns the son of God and outrages the spirit of grace for deliberately missing mass

One will ask, why does missing mass do all that?

• the sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant refers to the Eucharist. The summit of our faith.
• [Matthew 26:26-28 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew Chapter 26). This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus the son of God** said those words instituting the Eucharist the night before He died.*. *Jesus further describes the importance of the Eucharist for the soul.
• [John 6:53-54 (Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 6)* unless you* eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you*. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day*. Life of the soul is grace in the Eucharist*.*

Therefore, the one who deliberately misses the Eucharist on Sunday, after being given the knowledge of truth, says in effect to Jesus, I’m interested in other things more than this.

so to recap for the one who deliberately misses mass (the Eucharist)

• no sacrifice for sin is left for THEM.
• they profane the blood of the covenant
• they spurn the son of God & outrage the spirit of grace
• judgment awaits them

all that for deliberately missing mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday!!!

I didn’t make that up. It’s right from scripture.

Thanks Steve B. You have just made something go ‘click’ for me. Much appreciated.

 

[steve_b]

Thanks Steve B. You have just made something go ‘click’ for me. Much appreciated.

:tiphat: you’re welcome

Do you want to share what went click?

 

[Porknpie]

Um, Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace not by works.

Yes Yogo, Cathoics believe this. We are saved by Grace, through Faith, working in Love. Not by works alone…and not by faith alone. But completely through the Grace of God. Remember the writing of Ephesians is a Catholic writing as it is in the Catholic bible. There is nothing contradictory in it when understood through the apostolic faith of the Catholic Church.

The only way to get to Heaven is through Jesus Christ,

Yes, very Catholic.

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN…

Yes, one must be baptized as Christ taught the apostles and the apostles taught their successors, just as Irenaeus says in 190ad.

" ‘And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

not “you must recieve the eucharist”

Jesus in John 6 tells the apostles to receive him in the Eucharist, repeatedly. There is nothing symbolic here and the early Church, immediately understood Christ’s words. St Ignatius of Antioch below was a disciple of St John…the same St John who was the apostle of Christ. Christ gave us the Eucharist as a means to give us Grace, to nourish us on our spiritual journey. He also gave us 6 other sacraments that impart his Grace.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Justin Martyr also writes about the Eucharist and how they have been taught (by the apostles and their descendants) through the years.

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Yogo, Christ instituted the Eucharist…to not receive it as the Church has done from the beginning is not following Christ. You are arguing with management.

 

[Darryl_B]

:tiphat: you’re welcome

Do you want to share what went click?

Hebrews 10:25-26. I could never see a continuation of thought there. There seemed to be verse 25. A great big full stop. Then a new paragraph and a new train of thought. But it isn’t, there is a continuation.

Then there is the “no longer remains a sacrifice for sins”, which I think I just largely ignored with my protestant theology.

 

[steve_b]

Hebrews 10:25-26. I could never see a continuation of thought there. There seemed to be verse 25. A great big full stop. Then a new paragraph and a new train of thought. But it isn’t, there is a continuation.

Then there is the “no longer remains a sacrifice for sins”, which I think I just largely ignored with my protestant theology.

now that you see this, what are you going to do with it?

 

[Darryl_B]

now that you see this, what are you going to do with it?

I have resisted answering you steve b until now. I am in RCIA. Looking back over my life, no matter where I turned or what direction I went, everything seems to ultimately end up pointing to the Catholic Church. Thanks so much for your help.