Is calling pro abortion people "baby killers" uncharitable?

[BroomWagon]

I’m sorry that’s what they are. Pro abortionists are baby killers. However, someone told me its disrespectful (they were pro life btw). To me i don’t think anyone who advocates killing anyone deserves respect other than the basic respect God asks us to give them. To me they might as well be the same as the guards who ran Auschwitz. I know its harsh, but its true.

Lifenews.com makes it clear if one is ever in pro-life protests, to be charitable. They once had a list of pointers. Let’s remember both sides are or can be hostile to each other.

But even moreso, while we might feel that way about a pro-abortion person and I’ve thought about it with radical politicans, there are people who protest at abortion mills.

amazon.com/Unplanned-Dramatic-Planned-Parenthood-Eye-Opening/dp/1414339399 (first chapter can be read online)

Abby Johnson was a director of Planned Parenthood, started out as a volunteer while a student at Texas A and M and had a number of abortions herself but it’s pretty clear in this book that she became friends while still working for Planned Parenthood with the pro-life people, Coalition for Life I believe who prayer for her… and she eventually went pro-life, Abby did when she witnessed an abortion, she was usually the director, executive but one time, short on help, they needed someone, she went in, it was an ultasound abortion, she saw what happened and almost immediately after wards left her job.

So, it is hard to not feel this way, probably not as bad to say something like that on the web… but probably not that constructive, tough call really, there are pro-life forums on the web. To say that and to use it often, in one way it is the truth, in the other way, it might not be constructive and make one seem like an extremist…

Like Abby Johnson said protesters could not really be controlled, some people would show up with pictures of aborted fetuses waving it. But this is the world we live in.

 

[R1ch4rd]

You would have intentionally murdered a baby? That would be an unjust command.

No, I think you know what I meant. I would have killed an opposing soldier and that still does not make me a killer, it makes me a soldier. When our young men come home today, we don’t welcome them home as “killers”, rather as soldiers. It’s a point of fact that the Vietnam “conflict” was an unjust war and there were unjust commands given. Many were followed.

 

[fix]

No, I think you know what I meant. I would have killed an opposing soldier and that still does not make me a killer, it makes me a soldier. When our young men come home today, we don’t welcome them home as “killers”, rather as soldiers. It’s a point of fact that the Vietnam “conflict” was an unjust war and there were unjust commands given. Many were followed.

Are you intentionally confusing these issues?

Direct abortion is murder as the Church clearly teaches including using the word murder.

Acting as a soldier is not murdering unless the soldier acts unjustly.

What protestors may have said does not make their charges accurate. Direct abortion is murder and that is not the same as self defense or just war.

 

[fix]

Wow. When I read through these threads it’s mind blowing how little of the world is understood by the humans who populate it. First off - lets clear a few things up for the highly uneducated. The Democratic party doesn’t support abortion. The democratic party understands that America is a nation built up of many different religions, ideologies, and positions. White power skinheads use biblical passages to perpetuate the myth of slavery as being some kind of biblical mandate. Should we have another civil war? I mean seriously - there existed a HUGE population of people not very long ago who were down with owning another human being. Think about it. So you don’t support abortion - neat. Maybe the average American should run a laundry list of things that they HAVE supported that destroys not only the lives of unborn children, but people who are actually born. Remember lead paint? Remember asbestos? What about pollution, cars, cigarettes, cholesterol etc…etc… Do you know how many mentally handicapped, aborted babies, and cancer victims we have created because we wanted cool colors, and more efficient heating and air? CMON!!! What about the Iraq war? Give me evidence of one war where children - innocent babies weren’t murdered. Let me tell you something brothers - if you aren’t living off the grid, hiking everywhere you go, and eating food that you grew on a patch of land in some remote forest - YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM…Grow up, and get used to it or do something about it - unless it just makes you feel really good to sit around and call people baby killer that you don’t know, and have never walked a mile in their shoes. Then by all means. If it helps you sleep better.

There are so many deceptions and misdirections in this post it needs a new thread to correct them all.

 

[R1ch4rd]

Are you intentionally confusing these issues?
No, we’re still talking about uncharitable words.
Direct abortion is murder as the Church clearly teaches including using the word murder.
But not "baby killer"
Acting as a soldier is not murdering unless the soldier acts unjustly.
And if the soldier acts justly in an unjust war?
What protestors may have said does not make their charges accurate. Direct abortion is murder and that is not the same as self defense or just war.
If the war was unjust, and babies were killed would their charges NOT be accurate?

At the risk of derailing the thread, I’ll leave now.

 

[maryjk]

At the risk of derailing the thread, I’ll leave now.

I don’t blame you, I am leaving too.

Sorry, but it is NEVER charitable to call people names. It doesn’t matter what the person did, does or believe.

 

[BroomWagon]

I don’t blame you, I am leaving too.

Sorry, but it is NEVER charitable to call people names. It doesn’t matter what the person did, does or believe.

People who support abortion, choice, however one wants to term it, I do kind of see it this way.

But as for an abortion doctor, in this way if one was talking about I’m sorry to say, George Tiller, yes, that is what he was and some others if not all, in that profession as well.

But I do believe the original post is saying is it uncharitable to use this name towards say abortion advocates. I would think it is uncharitable though if used on occasion, might be so.

 

[Richard320]

And if your wife asked if this dress made her look fat, you would say…

I don’t think it’s fair to blame the dress.

Really.

 

[aragonjohn1]

I suppose it depends on the exact use of the phrase. If you are trying to explain to a younger person what abortion is, then you might use direct language that involves describing that a baby is killed. Here the charity is that you use language suited to the understanding of the person you are talking to, so they can gain knowledge.

If, however, you are talking alone with your sister at her house and insist on calling her a baby killer several times during the discussion in reference to her political views, is this going to have the effect of increasing her understanding of the truth and expressing your love for your sister? Or will it only incite her to anger? If you fully expect the latter, then charity dictates you choose a different way to express yourself, one that has a chance of a positive outcome for your sister. If you care about her, then do something that will affect her soul and life in a positive manner.

Your sister doesn’t exist to hear whatever it suits you to say. She exists to love God and live in communion with others. Do stuff that helps her do that.

Thank you

That reminds me…
Do you also think that subjective experiences are used in the wrong way by people who do they’re ideas of an “authentic catholic” and by those who try they’re best at not doin that?

Shalom
God bless you on you’re journey

 

[fix]

But I do believe the original post is saying is it uncharitable to use this name towards say abortion advocates. I would think it is uncharitable though if used on occasion, might be so.

Right. It is not that the OP wants to go around intentionally insulting people. Any language used depends on the time and circumstance.

My point in this thread is to point out that the gravity of this act is not to be diminished. I would ask those who have so zealously rejected any use of the term if they would hold the view if the law allowed a woman to kill her 5 year old?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Maybe the average American should run a laundry list of things that they HAVE supported that destroys not only the lives of unborn children, but people who are actually born. Remember lead paint? Remember asbestos? What about pollution, cars, cigarettes, cholesterol etc…etc… Do you know how many mentally handicapped, aborted babies, and cancer victims we have created because we wanted cool colors, and more efficient heating and air?

The problem with your examples-
Intent of abortion- the death of an innocent person
Intent of the use of lead paint, asbestos, etc- not the death of an innocent person, a sad side effect which when discovered led to said items no longer being used

 

[ringil]

After spending one of the most horrible years of my life in Vietnam, I was called a “baby killer” by demonstrators at my home airport. If you really want to help the pro-choice movement, keep calling them “baby killers”. Although I’m sure it happened during that unpopular war, I didn’t have to killed anyone. All the name calling did for me was to re-affirm the unity I had with my fellow soldiers and it took many years to forgive the name callers. Not only are you acting uncharitable, your helping their cause by uniting them. Better to pray for them.

Well, not that it means much now but I’m sorry that those folks said those terrible things to you. I can understand why people were against the war but some folks behavior during that era was just terrible and so misguided.

 

[Pug]

Thank you

That reminds me…
Do you also think that subjective experiences are used in the wrong way by people who do they’re ideas of an “authentic catholic” and by those who try they’re best at not doin that?

Shalom
God bless you on you’re journey

I’m not sure I fully understand the question, but yes, I do think we end up being guided by our subjective experiences in the wrong way at times, perhaps overgeneralizing and thinking others will respond as we did.

Perhaps someone thinks “tough love” is all that works, because that is what finally worked with them. But they fail to realize that some people haven’t had any love at all, so trying basic love first is a good idea before going the “tough love” route. [to understand what I’m hoping to communicate here, you need to realize the harsh connotations that the phrase “tough love” can carry in my background, that of the person already having used up all the rope/chances you are going to give them].

Conversely, someone might think that strong words are never the right choice because strong words were never helpful to them. Sometimes strong words lovingly delivered can wake a person up. They must be words that God wants us to speak and not that we, driven by our internal needs, want to speak. Yet, God placed us as his instrument in that particular situation, so we are the right instrument, of course, but we don’t usually know for what precise purpose exactly at the time.

I’m not sure I understood your question about “authentic Catholic”. I’m sure all of our answers on this thread are driven not by selfish desire, but by our idea of how we ought to help others, which is a positive element. Being truly authentic is attractive and draws people to Christ. Wisdom is also attractive, and draws people to Christ. Same for love and for joy. Hopefully we can be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, speaking the truth in love. I pray we can be a light to those who think abortion is good. I think being a light happens in many ways. We must strive to be a light and not a hindrance.

I hope I understood your question.

 

[thesmiter1]

Wow. When I read through these threads it’s mind blowing how little of the world is understood by the humans who populate it. First off - lets clear a few things up for the highly uneducated. The Democratic party doesn’t support abortion. The democratic party understands that America is a nation built up of many different religions, ideologies, and positions. White power skinheads use biblical passages to perpetuate the myth of slavery as being some kind of biblical mandate. Should we have another civil war? I mean seriously - there existed a HUGE population of people not very long ago who were down with owning another human being. Think about it. So you don’t support abortion - neat. Maybe the average American should run a laundry list of things that they HAVE supported that destroys not only the lives of unborn children, but people who are actually born. Remember lead paint? Remember asbestos? What about pollution, cars, cigarettes, cholesterol etc…etc… Do you know how many mentally handicapped, aborted babies, and cancer victims we have created because we wanted cool colors, and more efficient heating and air? CMON!!! What about the Iraq war? Give me evidence of one war where children - innocent babies weren’t murdered. Let me tell you something brothers - if you aren’t living off the grid, hiking everywhere you go, and eating food that you grew on a patch of land in some remote forest - YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM…Grow up, and get used to it or do something about it - unless it just makes you feel really good to sit around and call people baby killer that you don’t know, and have never walked a mile in their shoes. Then by all means. If it helps you sleep better.

My goodness. I love how liberal Catholics try and say that non-Democrats are causing abortion by not supporting a large federal government as the means of social justice. Did you ever think that maybe there are other ways of doing this? And maybe a large, secular humanist government is NOT the best way to bring Christ to people.

On the subject of the Iraq War, it’s not as though candidates say blatantly that they will absolutely go to war with a country when they run for office, yet most liberal candidates make their support of abortion options well known. Also, war can be just, while abortion is ALWAYS inherently evil and never allowed. Sorry my friend, your comparisons don’t fly. Supporting people that blatantly allow abortion and desire no restrictions on it is NOT the same as supporting someone who is for regulations on government welfare.

You don’t need to conform to the secular humanist agenda to want to help people. You also don’t have to be an ultra-conservative who lets the rich do what they please. Please do not try and justify your support of destroying children. It is ill-conceived and rather pathetic.

 

[aragonjohn1]

I’m not sure I fully understand the question, but yes, I do think we end up being guided by our subjective experiences in the wrong way at times, perhaps overgeneralizing and thinking others will respond as we did.

Perhaps someone thinks “tough love” is all that works, because that is what finally worked with them. But they fail to realize that some people haven’t had any love at all, so trying basic love first is a good idea before going the “tough love” route. [to understand what I’m hoping to communicate here, you need to realize the harsh connotations that the phrase “tough love” can carry in my background, that of the person already having used up all the rope/chances you are going to give them].

Conversely, someone might think that strong words are never the right choice because strong words were never helpful to them. Sometimes strong words lovingly delivered can wake a person up. They must be words that God wants us to speak and not that we, driven by our internal needs, want to speak. Yet, God placed us as his instrument in that particular situation, so we are the right instrument, of course, but we don’t usually know for what precise purpose exactly at the time.

I’m not sure I understood your question about “authentic Catholic”. I’m sure all of our answers on this thread are driven not by selfish desire, but by our idea of how we ought to help others, which is a positive element. Being truly authentic is attractive and draws people to Christ. Wisdom is also attractive, and draws people to Christ. Same for love and for joy. Hopefully we can be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, speaking the truth in love. I pray we can be a light to those who think abortion is good. I think being a light happens in many ways. We must strive to be a light and not a hindrance.

I hope I understood your question.

Thank you that helped a lot a answered more than 80% of question
When I was talkin bout “authentic catholic” it was something Fulton sheen a quite a few good examples I know of talk bout a lot.

Thanks
Shalom
God bless

 

[thewanderer]

No , you can hate the sin and still love the sinner.
Jesus often called sinners to account. He spoke the truth plainly. Its not about setting out to hurt someone’s feelings, like calling them fat and ugly as so crassly compared in other posts, its about setting out to state the truth.
The plain truth is abortion is killing an unborn child. If that plain truth hurts someone’s delicate sensibilities, it does not mean it stops it being true, nor should we stop speaking the truth.
Sometimes the truth hurts as the saying goes. I’m trying to think of another example or analogy…would you say to an openly racist person that their views are ok, or not call them out for being a racist because you might upset them? A lot of this is dancing around the perceived offence that someone may take. Honestly, someone who is pro-abortion is not going to be offended by the fact that someone who is pro-life believes abortion to be murder. They are well aware of the issues at stake. Is there any other instance where we would say to someone its ok to support something that is wrong.

I have nothing wrong with saying that abortion kills babies. It does. thats just a plain fact. But I cannot think of one instance where the term “baby killer” is being used simply to express the fact of what happens in abortions. So yes, hate the sin but love the sinner, that is my whole point. Tell the truth about abortion but do not be uncharitable and call people baby killers just for the sake of infuriating/upsetting them, because that is all its going to do. The idea that they wouldn’t be offended is ridiculously naive.

 

[thewanderer]

Right. It is not that the OP wants to go around intentionally insulting people. Any language used depends on the time and circumstance.

My point in this thread is to point out that the gravity of this act is not to be diminished. I would ask those who have so zealously rejected any use of the term if they would hold the view if the law allowed a woman to kill her 5 year old?

YES I would, because I do not see how it would be used without being uncharitable. That doesn’t mean I would be silent about the horrors going on in the world around me, it simply means I would be fighting them in true charity.

 

[Lochias]

People who are pro-choice are not “pro-abortion.” So pretty much all these references are insulting and lack charity.

Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt, apparently…

 

[fix]

YES I would, because I do not see how it would be used without being uncharitable.

There are certainly cases where it would not be uncharitable.

That doesn’t mean I would be silent about the horrors going on in the world around me, it simply means I would be fighting them in true charity.

How does true charity forbid one from characterizing another as a murderer? If someone were in prison and they admitted to murdering two 5 year olds why would it lack charity to say they are murderers?

 

[thewanderer]

There are certainly cases where it would not be uncharitable.

How does true charity forbid one from characterizing another as a murderer? If someone were in prison and they admitted to murdering two 5 year olds why would it lack charity to say they are murderers?

It doesn’t. But it does require that one make an effort to not hurt others feelings unnecessarily.