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Humble_Pie
Guest
Hi Noobio,
According to World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 33,000 protestant denominations in 238 countries, and every year there is a net increase of around 270 to 300 denominations. Each one of these claim to hold the correct interpretation of Scripture. Some believe baptism is necessary for salvation, others don’t. Some believe in a Triune God, others don’t. Some accept the hypostatic union, others don’t.
All appeal to Scripture for their proofs.
So which one is right?
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noobio
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Not all denominations are completly wrong. They probably have some true teachings. I know that some of their interpertations are wrong. We can see for ourselves if what that denomination says is biblical or not. So probably non of them are completly biblical.
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Humble_Pie
Guest
So which one is right? And why is it right?
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anrmenchaca47
Guest
@ noobio
I too was a “bible only” type person. I was baptized into the catholic faith, recieved all my sacraments and went off to college. That’s where I ran into “Sola Scriptura” christians. They were and are still the kindest and most caring people in the world. They pretty much had me thinking that I don’t need to go to mass and all the issues you mentioned. There was even a moment in recent years when I NEARLY converted to being a mormon because we had lost a child due to a miscarriage, in which I had to hold my unborn child in my own hands while my wife grew devastated, and a couple of friends of ours, very sincere, took advantage of our sorrow to get us to change. Luckily, although you don’t have to believe this part, our Blessed Mother convinced me otherwise and I changed my mind. My wife and I spent the past 10 of our 11 years in a spiritual void up until in 2009. That is when God spoke to me to return to the Church. I had a lot of unanswered questions and dilemmas because of all of the commotion of the Catholic church. Also, I never fully understood the Catholic faith and history until I met a great priest and friend from whom I have learned a lot from regarding our rich history. To this day, I bury myself in catholic history, apologetics and not to mention scripture. I too posed similar questions to my priest and he pretty much backed everything up. Now, it wasn’t the fact that he proved it through historical data and scripture,…there was a deeper sense or a feeling of “you know what?..it’s true.” It felt right. But as I learned more about the message of Christ, I started to feel the Advocate at work in me. Just as John 16:12-13 says "I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, be he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming."Also, John 14:16,17 says “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it, But you know it because it remains with you and will be in you.”
You see noobio, only if you are willing to open yourself up to the Spirit of truth will your doubts be overcome with a strong sense of faith and belief. There is nothing wrong in asking questions but if you wish to only see the tree rather than the forest behind the tree, well, you’ll get nowhere. I empathize because I was were you are now…but thanks my wonderful friend and priest, he has given me new found strength to seek Christ in all aspects which include getting to know the Blessed Mother, Saint’s and such. I challenge you noobio to sit in silence and let God speak to you through the Holy Spirit. God Bless you my brother(or sister) and I truly hope you find peace and truth through our one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
“Domine Dirige Nos”
Arnold
I too was a “bible only” type person. I was baptized into the catholic faith, recieved all my sacraments and went off to college. That’s where I ran into “Sola Scriptura” christians. They were and are still the kindest and most caring people in the world. They pretty much had me thinking that I don’t need to go to mass and all the issues you mentioned. There was even a moment in recent years when I NEARLY converted to being a mormon because we had lost a child due to a miscarriage, in which I had to hold my unborn child in my own hands while my wife grew devastated, and a couple of friends of ours, very sincere, took advantage of our sorrow to get us to change. Luckily, although you don’t have to believe this part, our Blessed Mother convinced me otherwise and I changed my mind. My wife and I spent the past 10 of our 11 years in a spiritual void up until in 2009. That is when God spoke to me to return to the Church. I had a lot of unanswered questions and dilemmas because of all of the commotion of the Catholic church. Also, I never fully understood the Catholic faith and history until I met a great priest and friend from whom I have learned a lot from regarding our rich history. To this day, I bury myself in catholic history, apologetics and not to mention scripture. I too posed similar questions to my priest and he pretty much backed everything up. Now, it wasn’t the fact that he proved it through historical data and scripture,…there was a deeper sense or a feeling of “you know what?..it’s true.” It felt right. But as I learned more about the message of Christ, I started to feel the Advocate at work in me. Just as John 16:12-13 says "I have much more to tell you but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, be he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming."Also, John 14:16,17 says “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it, But you know it because it remains with you and will be in you.”
You see noobio, only if you are willing to open yourself up to the Spirit of truth will your doubts be overcome with a strong sense of faith and belief. There is nothing wrong in asking questions but if you wish to only see the tree rather than the forest behind the tree, well, you’ll get nowhere. I empathize because I was were you are now…but thanks my wonderful friend and priest, he has given me new found strength to seek Christ in all aspects which include getting to know the Blessed Mother, Saint’s and such. I challenge you noobio to sit in silence and let God speak to you through the Holy Spirit. God Bless you my brother(or sister) and I truly hope you find peace and truth through our one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
“Domine Dirige Nos”
Arnold
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mark_a
Guest
How are you with Catholic morals theology???
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StTommyMore
Guest
You cannot properly interpret Scripture removed from its context (the Church in general, and the Liturgy in particular). You do realize the the primary reason the the Scriptures were canonized was not for private study but for public proclamation in the Liturgy, right? Of course you will want evidence, so here goes:
Council of Laodicea, c. AD 360:
Plenary Council of All Africa Hippo, 8 October AD 383:
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, c. AD 350:
Do you have any documentation that shows that the Scriptures are primarily for private study, ripped away from the Church and the Liturgy?
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joe370
Guest
I know; I watch the journey home all of the time…*The show is called “Journey Home” and his ministry is Coming Home Network. If you Google you will be led to it.
He has just written a book about his Ministry.
God bless
Cinette*
There is no video below but you can listen to quite a few of them from the EWTN archives; The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi; check out number 7 called the Panel Discussion on Sola Scriptura; it’s the most recent, and really good :ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289
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noobio
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Does this mean it is impossible to interpret the Bible if you do not have the Cathloic tradition? I have seen alot of non cathloics interpret the bible properly. You can still get the context of the Bible without the Church.
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mark_a
Guest
How are you with Catholic morals theology???
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Humble_Pie
Guest
How do you know this? By who’s authority do you interpret Scripture?
Example: Baptists accept the notion of the Triune God. Jehovah’s Witness’ do not. Both appeal to Scripture for their proof.
How do you resolve that?
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joe370
Guest
I agree that it is the works of each Christian that is being tested by divine fire, but, if said works are burned up, the builder is the one that suffers loss but in the end will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Noobio, You said: I believe 1 Cornithians 3 is talking about judgment day. So you believe that 1 Cor. 3 is referring to either entry into heaven, upon judgment or entry into hell upon judgment, even though in both cases the person is saved?
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Noobio, You said: I believe 1 Cornithians 3 is talking about judgment day. So you believe that 1 Cor. 3 is referring to either entry into heaven, upon judgment or entry into hell upon judgment, even though in both cases the person is saved?
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
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noobio
Guest
You can resolve that by examining the claims of both groups. Then you see if what they say is in the bible.You don’t always need the cathloic to interpret everything.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, what about John 6? Episcopalians and Lutherans (both Protestant) believe that the Eucharist is really Christ’s body and blood. Most other Protestant groups believe it is only symbolic.
Scripture is quoted to support both claims. Ergo, both claims are IN THE BIBLE.
Which is correct and HOW can you be sure it is correct? They’re BOTH in the Bible.
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noobio
Guest
I agree that it is the works of each Christian that is being tested by divine fire, but, if said works are burned up, the builder is the one that suffers loss but in the end will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Noobio, You said: I believe 1 Cornithians 3 is talking about judgment day. So you believe that 1 Cor. 3 is referring to either entry into heaven, upon judgment or entry into hell upon judgment, even though in both cases the person is saved?
QUOTE]
I believe it is talking about the entry to heaven. Suffer losss could mean you get no rewards or your works have been destroyed and gone. I do not see how this proves anything??
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joe370
Guest
So in order to resolve the matter, I simply examine the claims of both groups then see if what they say is in the bible? OK, leaving the CC out of it, how do I, personally, decide who is right and who is wrong when both claims are found in the bible, with very different interpretations, such as, the this is a symbol of my body vs this is my body? How do I decide who’s interpretation is correct? Do I base it on my interpretation of the passages in question?
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noobio
Guest
Then why read the bible if no one is able to interpret the verses in the bible
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EricFilmer
Guest
Thank you for replying to my post, Noobio.
I will now examine your scriptural support of the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura with the exact same level of scrutiny that you have been using in this thread when examining Bible references for Catholic doctrines.
1 Corinthians does not teach Sola Scriptura, and I say this on the basis of context, chronology, and comparison (with his other writings).
Context: The underlining theme of 1 Corinthians is Paul’s teaching about the importance of the virtue of humility and how Paul wants to stop the damaging effects of arrogance within the community of Corinth. As such, that is the context of the entire 4th chapter (and many of the others). This letter has nothing to do with what is to be considered the valid foundation of doctrine (which is what your interpretation of it is trying to say). Notice how earlier in the letter he provides a string of Old Testament warnings about boasting (1:19, 31; 3:19-20). So when Paul speaks of “the scriptures” in 4:6, he is obviously referring to the scriptures that he just finished quoting, namely Isaiah 29:14; Jeremiah 9:24; and Job 5:13. So if you cite 1Cor 4:9 as the basis of Sola Scriptura then (for you) all Christian doctrines have to founded upon Isaiah 29:14, Jeremiah 9:24 and Job 5:13. And yet no adherent of Sola Scriptura would be willing to take it that far.
Chronology: Even if we decide that in 1Cor 4:9 Paul was referring to scriptures in a broader sense, and that even though the whole letter is about the dangers of arrogance he decided to suddenly switch gears and make a brief statement about scripture being the sole foundation of doctrine, we run into another problem. Paul probably wrote 1Corinthians around the year A.D. 56. Therefore, it was written prior to many of the epistles of the New Testament. Moreover, it predates the written form of Matthew, Luke and John, and very possibly Mark as well. And it predates Acts and Revelation. So if you see the teaching of 1Cor 4:9 of “not going beyond what is written” to be a Sola Scriptura statement, then that means you have to tear out everything from the Bible that was written after 1Corinthians! That means that not even the gospels themselves can be used as the basis of Christian doctrine!
Comparison: When we compare 1Cor 4:9 to other things that Paul wrote, we have to conclude that interpreting 1Cor 4:9 to be a Sola Scriptura teaching cannot be correct. Consider the following:
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by mouth or by letter.” (2Thess 2:15, RSV)
Something taught “by mouth” is not, by definition, Scripture.
“What you have learned and received and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:9).
Obviously St. Paul cannot be referring to Scripture when he says to learn from what is “seen in him”.
No true adherent to the principles of Sola Scriptura would have made statements like these from 2Thess and Philippians. Because Paul clearly stated that he taught in a variety of means, including written form and non-written form, he cannot truly be telling people that valid teachings can only be in the written form.
So once again I ask you to give me a book, chapter and verse from the Bible that clearly presents the teaching of Sola Scriptura. 1Cor 4:9 obviously does not cut it. And let me remind you once again that I simply examined your interpretation of 1Cor 4:9 with the same level of scrutiny that you are using when examining Bible references for Catholic doctrines.
And if you can’t find a clear scriptural basis for Sola Scriptura then that puts you in a difficult paradox. After all, you have decided to fully embrace the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura even though it lacks any real scriptural basis, while at the same time you are rejecting certain Catholic doctrines because they lack (in your opinion) any real scriptural basis. This is a double-standard.
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joe370
Guest
Perhaps Jesus left His church with an inerrant interpreter of the inerrant word of God, in view of the fact that the holy spirit is forever guiding Jesus’ church into all truth - maybe?Then why read the bible if no one is able to interpret the verses in the bible
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noobio
Guest
I hope these verses will prove Sola Scriptura.
2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Matthew 4:4
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[a]”
Psalm 119:160
160 All your words are true;
all your righteous laws are eternal.
Shouldnt’t God’s be our authority?
Also, 2Thess 2:15, does not prove any extra tradition because those words are inspired which make them part of the bible.
St. Augustine believed in Sola Scriptura.
City of God, book XI, Chapter 3
“This mediator [Jesus Christ], first through the Prophets, then by his own lips, afterwards through the Apostles, revealed whatever he considered necessary. He also inspired Scripture, which is regarded as canonical and of supreme authority and to which we give credence concerning all those truths we ought to know and yet, of ourselves, are unable to learn”
So according to your saint scripture is our authority.
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