Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[PRmerger]

Numbers 31 is a chapter not a verse, I keep getting the impression you don’t have much experience with the bible. Is that the case?

Fair enough.

I stand corrected. Numbers 31 is a chapter and not a verse.

How does the Holy Spirit tell you that one thing in Scripture is not inspired but that another thing is?

What message do you get when reading a particular item in the Bible?

 

[PRmerger]

Women like Linda Norgrove didn’t care about peoples beliefs or unbeliefs. She cared about the healthcare of all but women and children in particular, and was about to inspect a clean water project she had overseen the construction of, when she was kidnapped and killed.

Your so called PAKs exist.

So do you have any first person accounts that she’s written that proclaim she’s an atheist?

And I’d like to see the reports that you have read from the witnesses of what she did.

 

[PRmerger]

But your attempts to claim some sort of moral superiority for Max Kolbe’s actions are starting now to sound quite demeaning, and almost disrespectful, to both him, and those of no belief who gave their lifes, and were and are prepared to give their lives, for others.

Sarah x

I don’t think it’s any more demeaning and disrespectful than the arguments that some atheists have proposed regarding Jesus.

Again, why do you (here, the collective you) get to question, demean, accuse our beliefs, but the same can’t be done to your belief?

Every single argument that I’ve proposed has been proffered by atheists towards believers.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

On matters of God, their default position is, “I don’t believe that he exists until you can provide evidence for this.”

That’s fine.

Except that for some reason you all are having a problem with my reversal of this.

My default position in this particular case is, “I don’t believe that he exists until you can provide evidence for this.”

See the similiarity in the positions posted in magenta?

From where I stand I’m totally fine with you not only having that is your default position but even as a final position. I don’t think there’s an attempt here to change you belief on the matter. I don’t even think that one’s belief stance on that matter is relevant or necessary to glance down the hypothetical pathway.

Why can’t I have that default position?

You can. I’ve got no objections against this. I engage in conversations with people about their gods and god concepts without my belief stance being an obstacle or factor at all.

“What would happen if the PAK were given the possibility of giving his life for an atheist or a Catholic. Whodo you think he would choose?”

Well, that’s a different question than what was being presented in this thread. It would be closer to “What would happen if an atheist gave his life for some one?” Given some random person (atheists or not) he or she may or may not give their life for some one else. We are more interested in the person that did.

Huh?

Could you please answer yes or no? Then you can expound and explicate.

You can prefix my response with the word “No” and then take the rest of the paragraph as an explanation on how I would classify it. It’s not a statement of faith any more than “I think he might have committed the crime” is a verdict.A necessary condition for classifying the statement differently would be the removal of the word “might.”

BTW: Just to nail down some definitions here are the applicable meanings of a couple of words to make sure we are on the same page. If you are using a different definition please let me know.

faith

• Absolute certainty in the trustworthiness
• Mental acceptance of the truth or actuality of something

believe

• To have an opinion; think
• To have confidence in the truth or value of something
• To credit with veracity

 

[PRmerger]

Oh my gosh.

Seriously???

You now accept the humanitarians that sacrificed their lives for others do indeed demonstrate selfless love, and agape - you did claim in an earlier post only a Christian could do that - but it’s now become a diving competition, with a let’s see who can dive off the ‘‘high dive’’.

I think you’ve demonstrated the points I was making quite nicely.

I feel somewhat saddened actually.

Sarah x

Yeah, I’ve just conceded that if we use your definition, which, for the sake of this argument I don’t have a problem with, that atheists can do good and heroic things.

Which, BTW, I’ve always proclaimed. (see this post from way back in 2009)

 

[PRmerger]

From where I stand I’m totally fine with you not only having that is your default position but even as a final position. I don’t think there’s an attempt here to change you belief on the matter

LOL!

You can. I’ve got no objections against this. I engage in conversations with people about their gods and god concepts without my belief stance being an obstacle or factor at all.

Great.

Well, that’s a different question than what was being presented in this thread. It would be closer to “What would happen if an atheist gave his life for some one?” Given some random person (atheists or not) he or she may or may not give their life for some one else. We are more interested in the person that did.

Exactly what I said. It’s a different question.

 

[inocente]

Fair enough.

I stand corrected. Numbers 31 is a chapter and not a verse.

How does the Holy Spirit tell you that one thing in Scripture is not inspired but that another thing is?

What message do you get when reading a particular item in the Bible?

I’ve tried to explain and can’t think of another way online, it’s basically a tutoring kind of thing. As we basically do the same as CCC 111, do you have a Catholic friend you could talk to face to face, or are there bible classes at your church?

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve tried to explain and can’t think of another way online, it’s basically a tutoring kind of thing. As we basically do the same as CCC 111, do you have a Catholic friend you could talk to face to face, or are there bible classes at your church?

So you can’t tell me how you know something is inspired or not. Except that you don’t like certain -]verses/-] chapters, so you decide that it’s not inspired.

That’s the essence, inocente, of creating a god in one’s own image.

I guarantee you, friend, that if God exists, that he’s going to proclaim things that you don’t want to hear.

That’s a given.

And if you’ve created this ideology of things that God has said that just happens to converge with your own personal views, then you’re worshipping a god that’s created in your own mind.

I daresay if you cannot proffer any belief that God has declared that you personally have conformed to, then this is what you’ve done: create a god in your own image.

Unless you can proclaim that you’ve conformed your views to God’s, then you ought to re-assess how you identify what’s theopneustos and what’s not.

That’s all, friend.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think the Holy Spirit inspires everybody but different people have different sensitivity to actually behaving in accordance with those inspirations.

That’s why we have multiple councils. Put people together in enough different combinations, who are all “inspired” but still clouded a bit by their own thinking and agenda (not “mystics” that is) so eventually over enough millenia they pool together enough stuff they can find common ground.

 

[PRmerger]

IKeeping this related to the comments that inspired it; since we’ve got limited knowledge of the actions and thoughts of people that existed prior to now right now it seems that we don’t have sufficient information to positively assert that a non-religions person with the attributes of interest did or did not exists. (And yes, I take that same stance with many god concepts. Though some god concepts are self contradicting from the start). Right now we can’t “prove” that one did or did not exists. There’s been a few attempts in this thread to explore possible outcomes if such a person did exists. But it appears that these attempts are quickly halted because of appears to me to be a refusal to temporarily treat the proposed person as one that has provisional existence.

Okay, so no, you don’t believe “I believe in God, based on the evidence” is a statement of faith.

Fair enough.

I hope in the future, then, when a Believer professes a belief in God you disabuse yourself of the concept that this is a statement made out of faith.



You will, I hope, recall this dialogue and understand that this profession is made out of the very same thread, so to speak, as your profession that there exists, somewhere, someplace, a PAK.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Okay, so no, you don’t believe “I believe in God, based on the evidence” is a statement of faith.

I want to avoid confusion and possible goal shifting, but that’s a different statement than the one that you asked about.

…] I believe that God might exist.

See my previous posts for details.

so to speak, as your profession that there exists, somewhere, someplace, a PAK.

Please don’t misrepresent my statements as I’ve made no such declaration. If this misrepresentation was intentional then that would be dishonesty.

 

[atheistgirl]

So you can’t tell me how you know something is inspired or not.

You by your own admission don’t know what’s inspired either. But you do believe your Church does, and have faith in the men and processes of the time. You don’t KNOW they were inspired, but you believe they were an accept this as part of your faith tradition.

Didn’t Jesus say the Holy Spirit would be with all believers after Pentecost?

Why wouldn’t the Spirit direct ordinary faithful people?

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

You by your own admission don’t know what’s inspired either.

Well, I can’t know what’s inspired of my own accord.

But I do know what’s inspired based on what the Church has discerned.

But you do believe your Church does, and have faith in the men and processes of the time. You don’t KNOW they were inspired, but you believe they were an accept this as part of your faith tradition.

Yes.

And, truly, if any Christian is honest about it, that’s the ONLY way they know something is inspired or not, too. It’s because the CC discerned for them that a particular book was inspired, but that another one isn’t.

Didn’t Jesus say the Holy Spirit would be with all believers after Pentecost?

Maybe if you could cite the Bible verse you’re talking about we could discuss your point further…

 

[PRmerger]

I want to avoid confusion and possible goal shifting, but that’s a different statement than the one that you asked about.

Fair enough.

If you’re in a discussion with a Believer and he professes, “I believe God* might *exist, based on the evidence” you’re not going to declare this to be statement made out of faith, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Please don’t misrepresent my statements as I’ve made no such declaration. If this misrepresentation was intentional then that would be dishonesty.

It’s only a misrepresentation in the way that you attempted to misrepresent me, TS, in your post #216.

I, being a Christian , of course, gave you the benefit of the doubt and did not attach to you any dishonesty. I simply re-stated my position more clearly in post #237.

But I’m just Christian like that.

 

[atheistgirl]

So do you have any first person accounts that she’s written that proclaim she’s an atheist?

And I’d like to see the reports that you have read from the witnesses of what she did.

Her parents set up a foundation in her name.

She was posthumously awarded the Robert Burns Humanitarian Award, which incidently was also awarded to the Catholic Bishop of Bulawayo.

She had a humanist funeral held in a community hall and her burial was in a communal cemetery.

I’m sure you can find this on line if you’re interested.

You don’t seem to understand that atheism is not central to the lives of atheists, or a driving force for their moral actions. If most atheists are like me, they don’t even think about it.

I’ve not yet met an atheist that ever felt compelled to keep a journal framing their good works within their atheism.

It’s simply a position on a single question.

However, you’re stance on this issue in this thread has inspired me to do just that.

To put it in writing (and on video for a video journal we maintain for my children for the future) for a matter of permanent record, I’m an atheist, humanist and secularist, and everything I do that might be classed as ‘‘good works’’ is inspired by, and driven by, empathy and compassion for my fellow human beings, and nothing whatever is related in any way with any kind of faith or belief in a Divinity of any kind.

In fact, a few days ago, I was thinking about setting up a website for people to register their secular, humanist, atheistism, especially pertaining to the military, but in looking around, that’s when I discovered MAAF. Soldiers there have even gone so far as taking pictures of themselves with a bord saying they are atheists, and posting it to the net, as they are so fed up with the militaries stance towards them, and the ever present insidiousness of the ‘‘no atheists in foxholes’’ philosophy.

Sarah x

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Fair enough.

If you’re in a discussion with a Believer and he professes, “I believe God* might *exist, based on the evidence” you’re not going to declare this to be statement made out of faith, right?

No, It’s an expression of a possible conclusion or a thought being entertained or isn’t being ruled out as impossible…. (msg #362)

To say that a proposition might be true is to also say that a proposition might not be true. Try inserting the word “not” into the examples I’ve presented in msg #352 to see what I mean. You could use the sentence with and without the word “not” side by side without producing something that is self contradictory (ex: “I might be late for work. I might not be late for work…”).

The “might” qualifier is what is making a difference here. Sair used the word “might” in her statement.

…]an atheist martyr for charity might have existed…]

So I also disagree with the evaluation of Sair’s statement as a statement of faith

 

[PRmerger]

I do you have a Catholic friend you could talk to face to face, or are there bible classes at your church?

I’ve been trying to figure out what in the world this is supposed to mean. I sense the snark, and I think there was another post you made about my not knowing Bible verses…so I’m guessing it’s another attempt to insult my ability to quote the Bible?

Not sure where that is coming from–except from perhaps a valid observation that lots of Catholics are absolutely clueless about the Bible. So maybe that’s where you’re getting this attempt to be snarky.

But that has as much oomph as if you were trying to make a snide comment about my being fat.

If you look at my pics (which, as a friend you have the ability to see) you will see that any attempt to call me fat would be, well, as ridiculous as any attempt to question my ability to quote the Bible.

That’s never been a problem for me.

Although, perhaps you are right in assuming, since I live in America and there’s lots of fat people here, that I am one of them.

Catholics = unable to quote the Bible
Americans = fat.

Not so much as it applies to me.

 

[PRmerger]

To say that a proposition might be true is to also say that a proposition might not be true.

EXACTLY!!! :extrahappy::dancing::clapping:

And for some reason atheists on this thread are not willing to entertain the notion that this proposition: the PAK exists

might not be true.

I am very, very willing to entertain the possibility of the PAK’s existence.

I just want proof—and am asking for nothing more and nothing less than that which atheists demand for evidence for God.

 

[PRmerger]

Her parents set up a foundation in her name.

I might contribute to it. She sounds like a wonderful person.

She was posthumously awarded the Robert Burns Humanitarian Award, which incidently was also awarded to the Catholic Bishop of Bulawayo.

She had a humanist funeral held in a community hall and her burial was in a communal cemetery.

Well, that could be because her friends mistakenly understood her to be an atheist, but she really never claimed to be an atheist at all.

I’m sure you can find this on line if you’re interested.

I don’t think that would work the other way.

If I told an atheist on a thread in which we’re discussing proofs for the existence of God, “I’m sure you could find proofs for God online if you’re interested”, what do you think she’d say?

You don’t seem to understand that atheism is not central to the lives of atheists, or a driving force for their moral actions. If most atheists are like me, they don’t even think about it.

I have faith in you and accept what you say is true.

I’ve not yet met an atheist that ever felt compelled to keep a journal framing their good works within their atheism.

That’s too bad, really, because then when other atheists centuries from now, want to claim him as one of their own, if they’re going to be intellectually honest and apply the same principles that they do to denying Christianity, they’re going to also have to deny this atheist.

It’s simply a position on a single question.

I don’t think so. With it comes a whole lot of other things–one being, “I can be moral without God.”

However, you’re stance on this issue in this thread has inspired me to do just that.

I am heartened by this, I suppose.