- Status
I
Ignatios
Guest
I never said that I do not know about Saint Gregory Palamas’s MARIOLOGY, BUT his belief in the Immaculate Conception, or, the way you put it " …St. Gregory Palamas also emphatically** believed in the Immaculate Conception**…" Now this is unheard of, Not even the link that you provided ( although the subject in that link you provided sounds like a spurious link) speaks about St Palamas as emphatically believed in the I.C. but on the contrary it specify that he never held on to the idea of the I.C. because he beleived that Mary was sanctified long before the “primus instans conceptionis“ …and… that God progressively purified all Mary’s ancestors.
Sorry this is not the Immaculate Conception of the RCC the least to say.
But all this coming from you and knowing your history in giving a spin to things to make it sound the way that it would agree with your RCC, is indeed no surprise to me.
…Neither have I baited you into debating me, far from it, if you pay heed to the text it would become abvious that I was agreeing with your statement —>** “…oftentimes we can find something erroneous in anyone’s thinking. No one is completely free from such errors”** so I agreed that there is no one who is infallibile
GOD bless you all †††
D
dvdjs
Guest
Not quite. According to Palamas, the process - successively increased purification through her lineage - which led to her purity, began before her conception. But did he ever say that her own purification preceded her own conception? How, in the context of ancestral sin would that work? Whatever the process, she herself was purified at the very instance of her conception, not “long before” it.
The Catholic church talks about her being purified from the very instance of her conception. Palamas concurs. He also presents an interesting mechanism of how that happened. The Catholic Church does not dogmatize on this point but leaves it a Mystery.
J
josephdaniel29
Guest
It was common practice for a time to put off baptism till later in life because some believed sins committed after baptism were far more difficult or even impossible (in the case of Tertullian) to be forgiven. Also many felt that it was better to minimize the time to commit sins after baptism. A number of great saints of the Church postponed baptism such as St John Chrysostom (age 30), St Basil the Great (age 27) and St Gregory the Theologian (age 30).I’ve never heard that, but I don’t think an emperor has to worry about persecution.I thought it was because Constantine had a good knowledge of theology and he wanted the many of the dirty, dirty things an emperor has to do to stay in power washed away before his death. It always seemed to me a laughable attempt to put one over on God.
In Christ
Joe
M
mardukm
Guest
St. Palamas taught:
"**He Who is the preexisting and good Word of the Father, moved by His unutterable love for mankind and compassion for us, put on our image, that He might reclaim for Himself our nature which had been dragged down to uttermost Hades, so as to renew this corrupted nature and raise it to the heights of Heaven. For this purpose, He had to assume a flesh that was both new and ours, that He might refashion us from out of ourselves. Now He finds a Handmaiden perfectly suited to these needs, the supplier of Her own unsullied nature, the Ever-Virgin now hymned by us, and Whose miraculous Entrance into the Temple, into the Holy of Holies, we now celebrate. God predestined Her before the ages for the salvation and reclaiming of our kind. She was chosen, not just from the crowd, but from the ranks of the chosen of all ages, renowned for piety and understanding, and for their God-pleasing words and deeds…
So, in order to render the Virgin worthy of this sublime purpose, God marked this ever-virgin Daughter now praised by us, from before the ages, and from eternity, choosing Her from out of His elect…When the chosen time had come, then from the house and posterity of David, Joachim and Anna are chosen by God. Though they were childless, they were by their virtuous life and good disposition the finest of all those descended from the line of David.And when in prayer they besought God to deliver them from their childlessness, and promised to dedicate their child to God from its infancy. By God Himself, the Mother of God was proclaimed and given to them as a child, so that from such virtuous parents the all-virtuous child would be raised.So in this manner, chastity joined with prayer came to fruition by producing the Mother of virginity, giving birth in the flesh to Him Who was born of God the Father before the ages.
Now, when Righteous Joachim and Anna saw that they had been granted their wish, and that the divine promise to them was realized in fact, then they on their part, as true lovers of God, hastened to fulfill their vow given to God as soon as the child had been weaned from milk. They have now led this truly sanctified child of God, now the Mother of God, this Virgin into the Temple of God. And She, being filled with Divine gifts even at such a tender age,**"
If she was marked by God from Eternity to have the flesh that was both new and ours, I gotta wonder how it is possible that she was not purified from the first moment of her existence.
Blessings
B
BluesPicker
Guest
I St. Constantine the Great appears in listings of Saints on Roman Catholic websites like www.catholic.org. So it is not like just the Orthodox consider him a saint. We have the Bible as a result of the Nicene Council. This Constantine promoted Christianity and his works bore good fruit.
D
Diak
Guest
There are several Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches dedidcated to St. Constantine, such as the parish in Minneapolis. He is commemorated as a saint in all of the service books of the various particular Catholic Churches of the Constantinopolitan tradition.
C
choy
Guest
are there icons for Constantine used by Eastern Catholics? can you point me to one? i’m interested, and i want one that i’m sure is used within the Catholic Church and not exclusively Orthodox (if there’s such a thing)
pardon my ignorance
thanks!
pardon my ignorance
thanks!
C
crazzeto
Guest
True, and that would actually greatly increase the chances of his sainthood… Along with what he did for the greater church of course
J
josephdaniel29
Guest
I can’t imagine an Orthodox icon of Saints Constantine and Helen that would not be acceptable to Eastern Catholics.
I
Ignatios
Guest
What is “Not quite” ?
Isn’t that what I have quoted from the link that Ghosty provided? or maybe I should have worded it the same way you did?
Never searched for this particular phrase, But it is clear that he didn’t held on to the idea of the I.C. of the RCC, So does it mean that he beleieved in the I.C. of the RCC if he did not specify that her own purification preceded her own conception?
He surely showed Mary was able to grow, from a completely purified root, like a spotless stem…
Now her conception whether it was immaculately conceived, should not depend on how it works with the Ancestral sin or the Original sin, simply because if it happened,then, that would have been the WILL of the FATHER and such a great act would have been revealed to all the Church from the beginning, also would not be subject to any ancestral sin and/or original sin since it is the WILL of the FATHER, now your question I think should be did GOD indeed willed the I.C. as defined by the RCC or it was a result of a theory that it is based on a wrong translation of the Bible ( Original Sin-Augustine)
This is only one element of the RCC view.
loool… sure , take the whole idea apart to a smaller portion, and I am sure you can make out of Saint Palamas as the originator of the I.C.
Any Idea must be taken within context, you cannot take portions and leave the rest of it and then say …“well we say the same thing here …and … here… then we have the same mind and opinion”
you must take the Idea as whole and not apart.
The approach (mechanism) is what makes the diffrence between the I.C. of the RCC and the Mariology discourse of Saint Palamas.
The I.C. of the RCC:
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in **the first instance **of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”
Saint Palamas beleieved not in:
-The idea of the I.C. because he beleived that Mary was sanctified long before the “primus instans conceptionis“.
Vs.
The RCC I.C.:
-pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception
St. Palamas: -That progressively purified all Mary’s ancestors, one after the other and each to a greater degree than his predecessor so that at the end, eis telos, Mary was able to grow, from a completely purified root, like a spotless stem “on the limits between created and uncreated”.
Vs.
The RCC I.C.:
-by a singular privilege and grace granted by God
Are you talking about this:
… Hence the words of one of our predecessors, Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: "Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul’s infusion into the body,
Marduk you are wrong as most of the times, only this time from the get-go.
your qoute of St Palamas was not a Teaching, it was a “Discourse” ( DISCOURSE ON THE FEAST OF THE ENTRY OF OUR MOST PURE LADY THE THEOTOKOS INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES
by Saint Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica
November 21)
according to the Dictionary:
dis·course (dĭs’kôrs’, -kōrs’)
n. 1.Verbal expression in speech or writing.
2.Verbal exchange; conversation.
3.A formal, lengthy discussion of a subject, either written or spoken.
4.Archaic The process or power of reasoning.
v. (dĭ-skôrs’, -skōrs’) dis·coursed, dis·cours·ing, dis·cours·es
v. intr.
1.To speak or write formally and at length. See Synonyms at speak.
2.To engage in conversation or discussion; converse.
GOD bless you all†††
L
Leo_The_Great
Guest
Is it possible to communicate an idea without the intention to instruct?
SPlitting invisible hairs here…
All communication is mutual instruction.
Even, “Lovely weather we’re having Jim!” As if Jim could not determine the condition of the weather on his own.
Or, classically, “Hi, how are you?” is usually our Pretext for talking about ourselves. At least in polite conversation.
THe Point is that any Witness to a Thought is a witness to the Paradigm surrounding that Thought. Whether Palamas meant to teach it or not, He reflects a very similar notion simply By speaking about it. And he does so without innovation, so That we may presume His thoughts Are the Echos of even more ancient sources.
The testimony of an idea or thought or theological insight doesn’t NEED to be authoritative from a Church Father, as long as it is congruent with their thinking and provides a witness to the truth.
SPlitting invisible hairs here…
All communication is mutual instruction.
Even, “Lovely weather we’re having Jim!” As if Jim could not determine the condition of the weather on his own.
Or, classically, “Hi, how are you?” is usually our Pretext for talking about ourselves. At least in polite conversation.
THe Point is that any Witness to a Thought is a witness to the Paradigm surrounding that Thought. Whether Palamas meant to teach it or not, He reflects a very similar notion simply By speaking about it. And he does so without innovation, so That we may presume His thoughts Are the Echos of even more ancient sources.
The testimony of an idea or thought or theological insight doesn’t NEED to be authoritative from a Church Father, as long as it is congruent with their thinking and provides a witness to the truth.
D
Diak
Guest
There is not such a thing, since we both (ideally) should be following the same canons and conventions of traditional iconography. Some of the icons you see in Eastern Catholic churches have actually have been written by Orthodox iconographers.
I
Ignatios
Guest
Why the question, the title of Saint Palamas writing is Clear it says “DISCOURSE” If it was “TEACHING” as Marduk said, then it would have said the TEACHING instead of the DISCOURSE, I mean how far are we going to go out of the way to twist things into what it is not, sheesh, it is not a brain stormer thing.
well it it seems like you were able to see it clearly and you even wrote a whole response on it and then you called it invisible
So now we are shifting down to INSTRUCTION instead of TEACHING… okay, what kind of instruction is it? the dogmatic instruction, or infomative instructions or maybe the authoritative instruction or perhaps doctrinal instruction, or conversational instruction …you are trying to put it in the general view, I am sure that this was not the intend because of it was then again they would have said the Instruction of, instead of the Discourse of, they used to the word DISCOURSE in order to define the work of Saint Palamas that it was a DISCOURSE and not a TEACHING or an INSTRUCTION, for when you say instruction then many if not all would interpret it to dogmatic teaching, or a thing that you must follow, just like the instruction on the back of food box instructing you how to prepare the food, but this not the case with Saint Palamas for if it was then it would have said Instruction instead of discourse.
Or, classically, “Hi, how are you?” is usually our Pretext for talking about ourselves. At least in polite conversation.
okay down to the point, and the point is that “some of” Saint Palamas’s thought “may” be taken as “similiar” to the I.C., BUT "EVEN " then IF similiar to the I.C., is not the I.C., so IOW you cannot say that Saint Palamas believed emphatically in the I.C. as Ghosty claimed.
1)if it is a witness to the TRUTH=Holy Tradition, then it is authoritative, since all Holy Traditions are canonical, actually the TRUTH is the Apostolic Teaching=Holy Tradition,
- does the Western Church fathers such as Thomas Aquinas and Brenard and etc … are included in your equation?
- "The testimony of an idea or thought or theological insight " …under which of the following does the Immaculate Conception fall under …and…If it “doesn’t NEED to be authoritative from a Church Father” why is the I.C. “instruction” is a dogma?
GOD bless you all †††
M
Mickey
Guest
If the Eastern Catholic Church venerates someone as a saint (ie: Constantine, Gregory Palamas, John Cassian), I find it odd that the Western Catholic Church would not honour the same veneration. Since Rome claims to be the “universal Church” --shouldn’t the saints (East and West) be universally venerated?
I
iillyonsion
Guest
Today, I visited this forum so I found that it’s very interested for me…There are many topics available here so I like this so much…
I hope that you will read care fully and tell me more benefits about this …
Advanced Colon Max
I hope that you will read care fully and tell me more benefits about this …
Advanced Colon Max
T
TheAdvocate
Guest
Not only that, Constantine was baptized by an Arian bishop on his deathbed—Eusebius of Nicomedia!!!
C
choy
Guest
that doesn’t invalidate the baptism
even an atheist can perform a valid baptism, especially on a deathbed
Z
Zoe_Brain
Guest
Perhaps a reasonable Icon of Constantine the Great would show him putting Intersexed infants into caskets, and casting them into rivers to be returned to God. As was his edict.
D
DL82
Guest
I think it’s simply a matter of only having so many days in the year to celebrate far more than 365 saints. Some are more important to certain parts of the world than others. Even within the Western rite, there are saints whose veneration is more limited to one nation or part of the world (such as St Columba, whose saint’s day was celebrated yesterday in Scotland and Ireland, while the rest of the Latin Church celebrated St Ephraem). At least, as far as St Constantine and St John Cassian are concerned, local veneration seems to be a bit like that. Gregory Palamas is a more controversial figure in the theology of the West, from what I understand.
- Status