Is contraception the answer to reducing abortions?

[fix]

lukewarm:

Well that’s the point they won’t hear it’s acceptable, you are assuming that by me telling them to use a condom states it is O.K. I will tell them it’s wrong same way I will tell them drinking is wrong, however if you do drink call me and I will pick you up and never mention it, don’t get behind the wheel of your car… Me being the reasonable man that I am can understand that by all accounts ~95% of adolescents experiment with their sexuality before marriage I can head off disaster as best I can.

But, you already are drawing a line, just in a different place. You are telling the child drinking is wrong, but you are going to do it. Then you tell them definitely don’t drive. How is that not driving thing any different then telling them not to fornicate in the first place?

BTW, the dwi thing is socially unacceptable. Fornication is socially acceptable. That bit of relativism is why we are having this debate. It is not that kids will fornicate in great numbers it is that it is viewed as acceptable.

 

[lukewarm]

Whatever it is what it is, you guys can go on thinking that what you fill thier heads with will stop them from experimenting with a girlfriend or boyfriend they love. It won’t, that’s reality, yes children are impulsive, yes they do fornicate in some sense or the other en masse, yes they always have. It has nothing to do with murdering and burning bodies, nonsensical statements like that make me believe I am dealing with folks who are simply out of touch. I hope your children get a proper education on these matters so they don’t end up with some horrid disease or unwanted pregnancy.

 

[fix]

It’s not “impossible;” it’s just not the right thing to do.

I could tell my kids, “Do not murder, but if you simply must, then be sure to set the fire in the kiln at 1000 degrees Celcius, to get rid of the body.”

What about a public service announcement that said dwi is ok as long as you are close to home, drive really slowly, wear a seatbelt, and have good air bags? Now, what if some percentage of the time it can be shown such a thing gets the patron home safely. What percentage would be acceptable to claim such a thing is morally ok?

 

[Jennifer123]

Whatever it is what it is, you guys can go on thinking that what you fill thier heads with will stop them from experimenting with a girlfriend or boyfriend they love. It won’t, that’s reality, yes children are impulsive,

All the more reason that they shouldn’t be having sex, teenagers are impulsive because they are not mature. If they can’t be trusted to drink alcohol because they could drive and kill someone, why should we trust them to have “safe sex” and not contract and spread possily lethal diseases?

If they got the message from society praising abstinence and that they can make some reasoned decisions about sex as much as they receive the opposite message from society, maybe we wouldn’t have skyrockting STD’s.and pregnancies.

Oh and BTW - I did have Lukewarm as a parent. And I certainly won’t make the same mistake with my children.

 

[lukewarm]

Oh and BTW - I did have Lukewarm as a parent. And I certainly won’t make the same mistake with my children.

I’m fairly certain I am a better parent than you will ever be, I won’t raise my kids in fear and to believe in nonsensical fairy tales. I will teach them reason, love, the arts, civic responsibility, love of country, self respect, and how to make reasoned decisions at all times and even if they do make a mistake to not compound it by making an even dumber mistake.

Stop blaming your moral failings on your parents, have some integrity in the matter… You had premarital sex because you wanted to, not because your parents weren’t telling you it was wrong, we all knew it was wrong, we simply didn’t really care at the time. I can’t stand adults who shirk responsibility by the ever popular blaming of the parents.

Dissing your parents like that? Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? I’m not a zealot but I do believe you just shattered one. I’m a borderline agnostic and I wouldn’t disrespect my parents like that…

 

[Jennifer123]

I’m fairly certain I am a better parent than you will ever be, I won’t raise my kids in fear and to believe in nonsensical fairy tales. I will teach them reason, love, the arts, civic responsibility, love of country, self respect, and how to make reasoned decisions at all times and even if they do make a mistake to not compound it by making an even dumber mistake.

Stop blaming your moral failings on your parents, have some integrity in the matter… You had premarital sex because you wanted to, not because your parents weren’t telling you it was wrong, we all knew it was wrong, we simply didn’t really care at the time. I can’t stand adults who shirk responsibility by the ever popular blaming of the parents.

Dissing your parents like that? Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? I’m not a zealot but I do believe you just shattered one. I’m a borderline agnostic and I wouldn’t disrespect my parents like that…

I never said I didn’t respect my parents, you are putting way too much into what I said, which is also uncharitable. I only implied that I had permissive parents that often gave me mixed messages about sex, among other dangers that teenagers face. They were only doing what they thought was “responsible”. I wasn’t an adult, so the fact remains that they indeed were responsible for training me in how I should live, and unfortunately I made decisions that affected me deeply for many years into adulthood.

I never told you that I didn’t take responsibility for those decisions. I just know better than my parents did at that time. I won’t make that mistake with my kids. You, by your own admission, will give them those mixed messages. I can tell you that will only serve to confuse them and ultimately lead them to believe you condone those undesireable actions.

 

[jmcrae]

I can tell you that will only serve to confuse them and ultimately lead them to believe you condone those undesireable actions.

This is true in so many areas of life. I remember a while ago reading an agonized article - actually an open letter - written by a parent to his children. I guess while they were growing up, he had been in the practice of inviting homeless people into his home - drug addicts, prostitutes, you name it. He was proud of the fact that he had never “passed judgment on” these people in front of his kids.

And I guess he was thoroughly astounded when his kids took up with drugs and prostitution. Asking himself, “Where did I go wrong?”

Too late he realized that, how you raise your children is how they will turn out.

The article was an open apology to his children, “where ever you may be.” Isn’t that so sad?

But I am sure that people were warning him not to expose his children to these lifestyles, and I am equally certain that he responded just as “lukewarm” is responding - that his kids will grow up to be well-adjusted, normal, compassionate people, and that being exposed to these realities will only make them stronger.

What he didn’t understand was that kids have no way of knowing the difference between right and wrong until their parents tell it to them. His acceptance of these people into his home was not teaching them to be “non-judgmental” of those who have sinned - rather, it was teaching them that these are equally valid lifestyle alternatives, and not sinful at all. (Because he never mentioned to them that these behaviours are sinful. I guess he thought they would “just know that,” somehow.)

He also wrote the letter in part to warn other parents, and to let them know that it is really, really important to be thoroughly consistent in how you present your values to your children.

 

[manualman]

Behind every passionate opinion is a personal story.

Finally Lukewarm’s has come out. There is no secret that catholics (especially us Irish-American version) sometimes in the past tended towards legalism and rigidity. Surely one of the very reasons Vatican Council II was called was to address the problem of people missing the message of the gospel and instead grasping for minimum rules. I won’t question Lukewarm’s account of his perceptions of catholic schoolgirls in his youth, no matter how outrageous it may sound. Instead I think he should realize that the REAL catholic vision of sexuality is NOT one of rigidity, fanatacism or suppression. It is the incredibly joyful reality of what God created married sexuality to be! And the side effect that incompatible uses of our sexuality will inherently damage our ability to enjoy that gift.

It is not necessary to domineer, intimidate or bully kids into “following orders”. That is not what catholic teaching is about. Those who try that DO fail at it. What Lukewarm fails to realize is that teenagers ARE capable of understanding the truth about sex and sticking to their convictions when properly understood.

To me his arguments betray an underlying casualness about fornication. He finds comparisons to murder ridiculous simply because he doesn’t really seem to take the consequences of fornication as seriously. He also seems to have some sort of belief that as long as the said hypothetical daughter doesn’t get pregnant or a disease, then “no harm, no foul”… To answer his question directly, I will merely pray that my daughter never gets IN such a situation instead of surrendering to it and hoping only her SOUL is devastated.

I wonder if he tells his kids how awful drug use is, but then provides them with clean needles “just in case they are weak?” If he lived in an inner city, would he instruct his kids about why gangs are so harmful, but still buy them a bullet-proof vest - just in case? I love the one about the “don’t DUI, but if you do, drive a car with airbags!” (I actually know some parents who buy alcohol for their underage kids to host parties so that THEIR underage kid won’t be driving home drunk! Similar logic)

 

[hasikelee]

I don’t even know what this post means, it makes no sense at all, children are minors and there are no legal implications at all for minor on minor trysts.

Consider the 99.99% statement me speaking in hyperbole to emphasize that it is very common, get off your rape nonsense that isn’t pertinent to the discussion at all and simple fear mongering.

If you have children and they are engaging in sexual behavior with other children, then you have legal problems on your hands. Heck, if they are engaging in sexual behavior with adults, you have problems on your hands.

Furthermore, if you are found to have deliberately assisted your child in obtaining sexual accessories, and they committed an act of sexual assualt, molestation, abuse or rape, then you can be held not only partially responsible, but in a lawsuit, as the minor’s legal guardian, you can be held financially responsible.

As a parent, who is responsible in many different ways (spiritually, physically, legally, socially) for your children, being informed is usually going to protect and help you as well as your children.

Furthermore, why do you feel the need to present statistical inaccuracies if your position is logical?

If you think my post was fear-mongering, I urge you to consider informing yourself on the non-hyperbolic statistics provided by law enforcement, our government, even non-profit organizations for women. They have a lot to say on the subject.

So, you would equip your minor daughter with either 1) latex that even the CDC claims is ineffective against pregnancy and disease, or 2) artificial birth control that has a slew of side effects such as cancer and blood clots…then you would allow her to enter into sexual situations and NOT fear that she might be molested, abused, raped, harassed or otherwise threatened and harmed?

You find it perfectly okay that she might get HPV and then get cervical cancer, experience permenant infertility, or even death from cancer? A condom cannot protect against HPV as it is spread through ALL genital contact.

You find it perfectly okay that your minor child might get pregnant through rape, or even through casual sexual intercourse with another child? I suppose you will help her pay for the abortion, which can cause complications in future pregnancies, can tear her uterus, can kill her, not to mention the psychological problems such as depression and suicidal ideation? (Concluded by a pro-choice scientist, BTW)

It sounds as if you want to skate by on good intentions. Unfortunately, accurate statistics, studies done by pro-abortion advocates and science and medicine all go against your thinking.

 

[lukewarm]

This is true in so many areas of life. I remember a while ago reading an agonized article - actually an open letter - written by a parent to his children. I guess while they were growing up, he had been in the practice of inviting homeless people into his home - drug addicts, prostitutes, you name it. He was proud of the fact that he had never “passed judgment on” these people in front of his kids.

And I guess he was thoroughly astounded when his kids took up with drugs and prostitution. Asking himself, “Where did I go wrong?”

Too late he realized that, how you raise your children is how they will turn out.

The article was an open apology to his children, “where ever you may be.” Isn’t that so sad?

But I am sure that people were warning him not to expose his children to these lifestyles, and I am equally certain that he responded just as “lukewarm” is responding - that his kids will grow up to be well-adjusted, normal, compassionate people, and that being exposed to these realities will only make them stronger.

What he didn’t understand was that kids have no way of knowing the difference between right and wrong until their parents tell it to them. His acceptance of these people into his home was not teaching them to be “non-judgmental” of those who have sinned - rather, it was teaching them that these are equally valid lifestyle alternatives, and not sinful at all. (Because he never mentioned to them that these behaviours are sinful. I guess he thought they would “just know that,” somehow.)

He also wrote the letter in part to warn other parents, and to let them know that it is really, really important to be thoroughly consistent in how you present your values to your children.

This is dumbest load I’ve read yet and I’ve read a few doozies in this topic. It’s almost like some of you folks are incapable of making any sort of logical point.

Again:

Your daughter experiments with alcohol at a frat party she makes a mistake and is about to engage in sex with a borderline stranger. Do you want her to know how to protect herself? Or do you want to not choose the evil condom? Keep in mind that roughly 95% of all adolescents will engage in this type of activity (yes even your daughters and sons) at one point or another. This isn’t rape, incest, stealing from a pharmacy or murdering someone and burning the body. This is sexual exploration of which the overwhelming majority of the best children out there will patake in including your children no matter what you say to them.

IF you can’t answer that question you are just blowing smoke…

 

[1234]

But should it be? Especially, the non-abortive type? This perplexes many people, including Catholics. From what I can see, biblical support for it is pretty weak.

here, here, Mike.

 

[1234]

This is dumbest load I’ve read yet and I’ve read a few doozies in this topic. It’s almost like some of you folks are incapable of making any sort of logical point.

Again:

Your daughter experiments with alcohol at a frat party she makes a mistake and is about to engage in sex with a borderline stranger. Do you want her to know how to protect herself? Or do you want to not choose the evil condom? Keep in mind that roughly 95% of all adolescents will engage in this type of activity (yes even your daughters and sons) at one point or another. This isn’t rape, incest, stealing from a pharmacy or murdering someone and burning the body. This is sexual exploration of which the overwhelming majority of the best children out there will patake in including your children no matter what you say to them.

IF you can’t answer that question you are just blowing smoke…

Good show, Luke…

let’s hear more from you.

 

[wanner47]

This is dumbest load I’ve read yet and I’ve read a few doozies in this topic. It’s almost like some of you folks are incapable of making any sort of logical point.

Again:

Your daughter experiments with alcohol at a frat party she makes a mistake and is about to engage in sex with a borderline stranger. Do you want her to know how to protect herself? Or do you want to not choose the evil condom?

Neither. We want her to have the tools to say “No” at that point.

Keep in mind that roughly 95% of all adolescents will engage in this type of activity (yes even your daughters and sons) at one point or another.

Of course they will, because most adolescents will eventually marry. Here’s another useless statistic for you: 100% of adolescents will eventually die. However, our goal is to teach our children that sex is only appropriate within the marital embrace, and that contraception is never licit.

This isn’t rape, incest, stealing from a pharmacy or murdering someone and burning the body. This is sexual exploration of which the overwhelming majority of the best children out there will patake in including your children no matter what you say to them.

Regarding the bolded portion, prove it! I didn’t engage in sex until marriage, and I know of many other people who also waited until their wedding night.

Lukewarm, I really don’t get you. You claim to love your children, yet you want to teach them a substandard way of protecting themselves from disease and unplanned pregnancy. You also seem to indicate that you don’t trust your children to make good decisions – and when they inevitably make bad decisions that you expect them to make, you’re unwilling to let them deal with the consequences of their bad choices.

 

[jmcrae]

This is dumbest load I’ve read yet and I’ve read a few doozies in this topic. It’s almost like some of you folks are incapable of making any sort of logical point.

Again:

Your daughter experiments with alcohol at a frat party she makes a mistake and is about to engage in sex with a borderline stranger.

And you seriously think that if she can’t say no to sex because she is afraid of him and feels that she must give in to him, she’s going to lecture him to use a condom.

Do you want her to know how to protect herself?

Yes. And how she protects herself is by knowing her own worth and by valuing herself and her future marriage enough to be able to say “No” and to stand up for herself, even when she’s afraid.

 

[hasikelee]

This is dumbest load I’ve read yet and I’ve read a few doozies in this topic. It’s almost like some of you folks are incapable of making any sort of logical point.

Again:

Your daughter experiments with alcohol at a frat party she makes a mistake and is about to engage in sex with a borderline stranger. Do you want her to know how to protect herself? Or do you want to not choose the evil condom? Keep in mind that roughly 95% of all adolescents will engage in this type of activity (yes even your daughters and sons) at one point or another. This isn’t rape, incest, stealing from a pharmacy or murdering someone and burning the body. This is sexual exploration of which the overwhelming majority of the best children out there will patake in including your children no matter what you say to them.

IF you can’t answer that question you are just blowing smoke…

Lukewarm, something sounds very adolescent here and not at all like that of a parent, regardless of religious or moral beliefs. I have never heard a father of any religious background use a case of his daughter about to have supposed “consensual” sex with a “borderline stranger” to incite anonymous posters on a forum.

What you present above is NOT sexual exploration. It is underage alcohol abuse, which is damaging to the mental and physical health of the child and it CAN also turn into rape. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. What you are saying is a minor under the influence is about to be manipulated into sexual intercourse. How old is the stranger? Over 18?

Lukewarm, if you believe in contraception and sexual behavior before marriage, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Everyone has their own beliefs and there is nothing wrong with talking about them with other people.

But, look at yourself! You are advocating date rape of an underage girl to make a point. That is sick and you should be ashamed.

You also have the inaccurate and untruthful hyperbole going on, as you called it yourself.

Again, you bring legal implications into play. For example, you continue to use the words “child” and “children.” Are you speaking of minors? Where is this party located? Who is allowing the minor children to inhabit a house with alcohol?

 

[lukewarm]

Lukewarm, something sounds very adolescent here and not at all like that of a parent, regardless of religious or moral beliefs. I have never heard a father of any religious background use a case of his daughter about to have supposed “consensual” sex with a “borderline stranger” to incite anonymous posters on a forum.

What you present above is NOT sexual exploration. It is underage alcohol abuse, which is damaging to the mental and physical health of the child and it CAN also turn into rape. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. What you are saying is a minor under the influence is about to be manipulated into sexual intercourse. How old is the stranger? Over 18?

Lukewarm, if you believe in contraception and sexual behavior before marriage, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Everyone has their own beliefs and there is nothing wrong with talking about them with other people.

But, look at yourself! You are advocating date rape of an underage girl to make a point. That is sick and you should be ashamed.

You also have the inaccurate and untruthful hyperbole going on, as you called it yourself.

Again, you bring legal implications into play. For example, you continue to use the words “child” and “children.” Are you speaking of minors? Where is this party located? Who is allowing the minor children to inhabit a house with alcohol?

Just an FYI I don’t read your rambling insane posts, they delve so far out of the realm of reality I simply can’t get through them, so you can stop responding to my posts and maybe get some mental help while you’re at it, you are like a crazy person…

 

[Agnes_Ainsworth]

I love the Catholic preoccupation with SIN–right reasons NFP is OK apparently , but practice NFP for the wrong reasons, and you SIN, even with NFP!!

A longitudinal study was done in England of children born after the mother had scheduled an abortion, but for some reason, did not have it performed. A high percentage of these children as adults were in jail, were felons, were mentally ill. I don’t think that their mothers felt that they had ‘glorified God’ by having these unwanted babies.

Could you please give some details about the study in England, I haven’t heard about it although I have for many years studied abortion related matters. Also I would just like to comment that the illegitimacy rate in England prior to the advent of the contraceptive pill was fairly stable at about 10% but many women were pregnant when they got married, I don’t know the percentage but as contraception was rarely used, most of these married the first partner they had so sexually transmitted diseases were uncommon and the divorce rate was very low, Adultery was uncommon too because the risk of pregnancy was too high and few could afford to pay for the upkeep of children outside their own marriage. Abortions was unheard of except for a tiny minority. The majority of children were brought up by both their parents so the social problems were much less. Family life was much healthier than now and children respected authority, parents and teachers.

 

[lukewarm]

So no one can answer the hypothetical honestly? Let’s say your daughter has ignored your very admirable lecture on abstinance, she is not being raped, she is very willing participant in fornication (yes contrary to the popular opinion here women do like sex, have sexual urges, and can be willing participants in fornication without being “forced” or “pressured into it” I mean how friggin naive and frankly sexist). She is about to commit the act, do you want her to use a condom or no? Simple question requiring a simple answer. Either answer it or admit you are afraid to answer the question honestly and stop with the rest of this nonsense about homeless people, date rape, incest, murder and burning bodies and whatever other nonsense I’ve read here.

 

[jmcrae]

So no one can answer the hypothetical honestly? Let’s say your daughter has ignored your very admirable lecture on abstinance, she is not being raped, she is very willing participant in fornication (yes contrary to the popular opinion here women do like sex, have sexual urges, and can be willing participants in fornication without being “forced” or “pressured into it” I mean how friggin naive and frankly sexist). She **is about to commit the act, do you want her to use a condom or no? **

No. A second sin does not make the first one go away.

Besides, if she is going to have sex anyway, she should do it right and have fun with it; what is the good of committing a mortal sin if you have to fumble around with a nasty bit of latex that takes all the spontenaity out of the act? And then the nastiness of going looking for it in the bedsheets afterwards.

My take on it is, if you’re going to trade your eternal happiness for five minutes of fun, then that five minutes had better really be fun. Right?

 

[brycelaliberte]

Ohh to be truthful… or just vindictive and nasty?

Go ahead and bank on your children being good boys and girls and not didling each other until they’re legally married in their late 20’;s, good luck with that pipe dream… Hopefully someone with good enough sense will show them how to protect themselves from the ill effects of the innevitable “lapse” they WILL have.

It’s irresponsible parents like you that makes it mandatory to teach children in our schools what should be taught by parents…

I’m 16, thank you. And when I have children, I will certainly hold them to the expectations I have of myself. And I will not ‘lapse,’ not once. Many have done it, I think, and some have actually gone their entire life.

It’s cynical parents like you that makes it mandatory to teach children in our schools what should be taught OTHERWISE by parents…

And yes, that was entirely truthful. People like you make me And if you took that as vindictive and nasty, then I’m sorry, but it was the truth. All adolescents should be insulted by comments like that.