Is contraception the answer to reducing abortions?

[lukewarm]

High moral standards? You mean like love one another?

The answer is do not lie naked with anyone. Why must I answer a type of Hobson’s choice? I note you see the action as absolutely inevitable. That premise you have is part of he problem.

I see it is hard for you to think differently than what you see as “normal” behavior. Do you know that life is more than hedonism and relativism? There are many people, young people, who choose good.

No it’s because I understand that a vast amount of young people do fall into that sin as did I and probably as did you…

You can’t answer the question because if you answer it honestly it completely undermines your entire position. OF COURSE you would INSIST your daughter tell the boy to use a condom. You can tell children to not partake in any sin but I understand thier human nature and the fact that they will sin. I understand they are human not little automatons.

I knew you wouldn’t be able to answer the question, going from the basis that it is imposible for your children to fall into the sin of unchastity is imo a very naive and dangerous position to take with your childrens health.

 

[lukewarm]

Yea, and when they break? And what about pathogens like herpes viruses? And what about the fact the more you grow accustomed to that “lifestyle” the more chances for failure and the more accustomed one becomes to using another as a mere instrument?

Again you are speaking like the two are mutally exclusive they are not… You can teach chastity and abstinence and how to protect yourself if you do fall and give into your hormonal urges.

 

[wanner47]

A disservice is simply calling your children “evil” and pretending like they aren’t engaging in what 99.9% of unmarried children do when they go out on Friday nights. I refuse to just bury my head in the sand and hope that my rants about the evils of premarital sex and an enternity in hell for rounding second will be enough to discourage my children (it won’t be, children rarely think in terms of eternity, they are impulsive and think in the here and now)… But you got your way of parenting I got mine…

I feel very sorry for any children whose parents constantly expect the worst of them, because that’s exactly what they (the parents) are going to get.

If you’re “ranting” to them about the evils of premarital sex and an eternity in hell, that’s also not the right way to go about it. How about teaching them about the beauty of marital sex and why one’s virginity is such a special gift to one’s spouse? How about teaching them that if a relationship is contingent on sex, it’s not a good one? How about teaching them WHY it’s so important to stay pure, and how abstinence is the ONLY way to be 100% protected from STDs and unplanned pregnancies?

Seems like that’d be a better strategy rather than just assuming your children will go out and commit mortal sin.

 

[jmcrae]

Real simple question - your 18 year old daughter fails your high moral standards (which you probably didn’t even preach until you were safely married after years of partying and low level debauchery, but that’s neither here nor there) and lies naked with her boyfriend or even worse some drunk dude at a frat party she barely knows. Are you telling me you would rather her not insist on him using a condom?

How, in that situation, is it easier for her to say “Please wear a condom” than it is for her to say, “I am not ready for sex.”?

You are teaching your daughter to say something at that moment; why does it have to be “Please put on a condom.”?

Why can’t it be something else - something that will help her to retain what is left of her chastity?

You can also proof your daughter against that situation from ever happening, by making sure she has high self-esteem and knows that she is worth waiting for; by teaching her to see herself as being the person in charge of her sexuality, and that she is not required to lie there quietly while someone undresses her; by teaching her to pray for her future spouse, and to start falling in love with him sight unseen the moment she is old enough to think about marriage (meaning, when she is playing Barbie and Ken; not when she is out shopping for her own wedding dress).

It is possible to be honest and realistic with your children, without making it seem as though you think sex is inevitable before marriage.

My mother’s strategy was very simple: she always said, “Don’t ever have sex with anyone that you wouldn’t want to have as your child’s mother/father.” It wasn’t perfect, but it certainly cut down on the temptation to flirt with ne’er-do-wells.

 

[lukewarm]

I feel very sorry for any children whose parents constantly expect the worst of them, because that’s exactly what they (the parents) are going to get.

If you’re “ranting” to them about the evils of premarital sex and an eternity in hell, that’s also not the right way to go about it. How about teaching them about the beauty of marital sex and why one’s virginity is such a special gift to one’s spouse? How about teaching them that if a relationship is contingent on sex, it’s not a good one? How about teaching them WHY it’s so important to stay pure, and how abstinence is the ONLY way to be 100% protected from STDs and unplanned pregnancies?

Seems like that’d be a better strategy rather than just assuming your children will go out and commit mortal sin.

The loosest girls in High School were the ones coming from the Catholic School after 8th grade and the ones with the strictest parents. Coincidence? I don’t know, but I do know I have good kids and I trust them to do the right thing, if they slip up I also trust them to do the right thing and stay not pregnant and disease free…

I’m a good parent and I would bank my kids are better adjusted and will be much better decision makers than your kids. I won’t fill there heads with religious dogma nonsense that makes people domineering, unreasonable, and nuts. Most people who rail against this stuff do it because they are either repressed or free from the constraints because of their station in life. They need to be able to put themselves back in HS or College and think with a bit of reason.

 

[lukewarm]

How, in that situation, is it easier for her to say “Please wear a condom” than it is for her to say, “I am not ready for sex.”?

You are teaching your daughter to say something at that moment; why does it have to be “Please put on a condom.”?

Why can’t it be something else - something that will help her to retain what is left of her chastity?

You can also proof your daughter against that situation from ever happening, by making sure she has high self-esteem and knows that she is worth waiting for; by teaching her to see herself as being the person in charge of her sexuality, and that she is not required to lie there quietly while someone undresses her; by teaching her to pray for her future spouse, and to start falling in love with him sight unseen the moment she is old enough to think about marriage (meaning, when she is playing Barbie and Ken; not when she is out shopping for her own wedding dress).

It is possible to be honest and realistic with your children, without making it seem as though you think sex is inevitable before marriage.

My mother’s strategy was very simple: she always said, “Don’t ever have sex with anyone that you wouldn’t want to have as your child’s mother/father.” It wasn’t perfect, but it certainly cut down on the temptation to flirt with ne’er-do-wells.

Again the two are not mutually exclusive at all… I can’t debate from your black and white persepctive because it’s unreasonable.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

No it’s because I understand that a vast amount of young people do fall into that sin as did I and probably as did you…

You can’t answer the question because if you answer it honestly it completely undermines your entire position. OF COURSE you would INSIST your daughter tell the boy to use a condom. You can tell children to not partake in any sin but I understand thier human nature and the fact that they will sin. I understand they are human not little automatons.

I knew you wouldn’t be able to answer the question, going from the basis that it is imposible for your children to fall into the sin of unchastity is imo a very naive and dangerous position to take with your childrens health.

What your suggesting amounts to bad parenting. Your arguement seems to be, "I wasn’t a strong enough parent to instill good moral values in my child so I’ll allow them to place themselves in greater mortal sin. Perfect! Good Luck to ya! Like the parent that give their kids beer and has drinking party at home “because they going to do it anyway” or drugs. Surely there is a line that you as a parent won’t cross. Find it and relate it you this situation.

You either live a life that is obedient to God or you live a life that is only obedent to yourself. Good Parents instill the later in their children.

 

[lukewarm]

What your suggesting amounts to bad parenting. Your arguement seems to be, "I wasn’t a strong enough parent to instill good moral values in my child so I’ll allow them to place themselves in greater mortal sin. Perfect! Good Luck to ya! Like the parent that give their kids beer and has drinking party at home “because they going to do it anyway” or drugs. Surely there is a line that you as a parent won’t cross. Find it and relate it you this situation.

You either live a life that is obedient to God or you live a life that is only obedent to yourself. Good Parents instill the later in their children.

No it isn’t, the two aren’t mutally exclusive you can teach chastity and responsibility in the event of a failure, you seriously can. as soon as you get that through your head you can understand that the world isn’t a black or white world like you think.

 

[jmcrae]

Again the two are not mutually exclusive at all… I can’t debate from your black and white persepctive because it’s unreasonable.

No, it’s not “unreasonable” at all. I certainly acknowledge that kids get themselves into stupid situations. But there are ways out of those situations that don’t involve giving in. As the adult, you can teach your children these strategies, so that they can get out with their chastity intact, without getting themselves beaten up. (Which means teaching them not to be a “tease,” and how not to be mistaken for a “tease.”) It means teaching them not only the mechanics of sex, but also its meaning.

Too many kids go through life with no idea that sex is about creating a spiritual bond between husband and wife. Or that when it comes to the potential for a broken heart, there is no such thing as “safe sex” outside the bond of a permanent marriage.

 

[wanner47]

The loosest girls in High School were the ones coming from the Catholic School after 8th grade and the ones with the strictest parents. Coincidence?

First of all, I’d love for you to prove your statistics. You’re throwing around shoddy anecdotal evidence with nothing to back it up. How do you know these girls weren’t raised in a “lukewarm” (no pun intended) Catholic home? How do you know they even WERE Catholic (a lot of Protestants send their kids to Catholic schools) or that they had “strict” parents? Did you live in each of their houses and see how good the catechesis was?

I’m a good parent and I would bank my kids are better adjusted and will be much better decision makers than your kids. **I won’t fill there heads with religious dogma nonsense that makes people domineering, unreasonable, and nuts. **Most people who rail against this stuff do it because they are either repressed or free from the constraints because of their station in life. They need to be able to put themselves back in HS or College and think with a bit of reason.

Given that my children are currently ages 3 and 35 weeks gestation, I have no doubt your kids are better decision makers at the moment. But I’m sure that will change.

Re: the bolded portion, I have no intention of doing that. I intend to teach my children about (a) the beauty of marital sex, (b) the beauty of NFP, and (c) the danger and risks inherent to contraception and fornication. I also intend to raise them to be mature, reasoned, intelligent adults.

I don’t know, but I do know I have good kids and I trust them to do the right thing, if they slip up I also trust them to do the right thing and stay not pregnant and disease free…

What? You said earlier that you DON’T trust your children to do the right thing. You essentially said that they’re walking bundles of hormones with no self-control, and no way in hell did you expect them to restrain themselves when around the opposite sex – which is why you want them to use contraception.

Moreover, using contraception isn’t a surefire way to remain disease-and-pregnancy free. The Pill doesn’t protect against STDs in the slightest, and condoms have a failure rate. Only abstinence works in that regard.

 

[lukewarm]

What? You said earlier that you DON’T trust your children to do the right thing. You essentially said that they’re walking bundles of hormones with no self-control, and no way in hell did you expect them to restrain themselves when around the opposite sex – which is why you want them to use contraception.
.

I never said that… at all…, and I feel bad for your kids who are going to be brought up in a domineering religious home only to get smacked with reality and have no way to handle the real world. That’s why I say my kids will be better decision makers, they will be, and I’m already a better parent than your for not filling their heads full of fables, and fairly tales. I’m also already more relatable and understanding because I do understand my kids will fall, and I’m there to help them when they do. Your there to lay judgment and fear on their heads…

And my stories may be anecdotal I never said they weren’t, but they are my stories and the reality I know. We loved the girls transfering from the Catholic School after 8th grade (there was no local High School) because all the pretty ones were easy. There is a truth in rumor at times…

 

[jmcrae]

I never said that… at all…, and I feel bad for your kids who are going to be brought up in a domineering religious home only to get smacked with reality and have no way to handle the real world. That’s why I say my kids will be better decision makers, they will be, and I’m already a better parent than your for not filling their heads full of fables, and fairly tales. I’m also already more relatable and understanding because I do understand my kids will fall, and I’m there to help them when they do. Your there to lay judgment and fear on their heads…

Nobody is recommending to lay judgment and fear on anybody’s heads.

What they are talking about is teaching their kids the true meaning of sex and marriage, so that when temptation comes, they have the knowledge and the words to use to be able to get out of those situations with their chastity intact.

And my stories may be anecdotal I never said they weren’t, but they are my stories and the reality I know. We loved the girls transfering from the Catholic School after 8th grade (there was no local High School) because all the pretty ones were easy. There is a truth in rumor at times…

Sure. Their parents probably said “Make sure you tell him to wear a condom!” as they were flouncing out the door in nothing much more than their underwear.

 

[fix]

No it’s because I understand that a vast amount of young people do fall into that sin as did I and probably as did you…

Are you claiming because people sin then we must confirm them in their sin? Is that the standard now? If you want to rob a bank wear a mask so you cannot be identifed? Is this what we should teach people?

You can’t answer the question because if you answer it honestly it completely undermines your entire position.

I did answer it. You do not like my answer. There is no “choice” to do wrong. Do you see that? It is like asking me how I want to die, by knife or gun? It is not a real choice!

OF COURSE you would INSIST your daughter tell the boy to use a condom.

I would insist she get the heck out of there.

You can tell children to not partake in any sin but I understand thier human nature and the fact that they will sin. I understand they are human not little automatons.

Yes, we all sin. No news there. But, we do not tell people if you sin do it safely. It makes no sense from a spiritual, or emotional, or physical vantage point.

I knew you wouldn’t be able to answer the question, going from the basis that it is imposible for your children to fall into the sin of unchastity is imo a very naive and dangerous position to take with your childrens health.

What? You want an answer that tells one to always go and sin. I cannot tell anyone to go and sin. You place the child in a hypothetical that requires an evil answer. What foolishness.

 

[wanner47]

Nobody is recommending to lay judgment and fear on anybody’s heads.

What they are talking about is teaching their kids the true meaning of sex and marriage, so that when temptation comes, they have the knowledge and the words to use to be able to get out of those situations with their chastity intact.

Sure. Their parents probably said “Make sure you tell him to wear a condom!” as they were flouncing out the door in nothing much more than their underwear.

 

[lukewarm]

Nobody is recommending to lay judgment and fear on anybody’s heads.

What they are talking about is teaching their kids the true meaning of sex and marriage, so that when temptation comes, they have the knowledge and the words to use to be able to get out of those situations with their chastity intact.

Great and why can’t I teach my kids that and teach them to use a condom if they do ever fall? You are acting like it’s impossible and I assure you it isn’t.

Sure. Their parents probably said “Make sure you tell him to wear a condom!” as they were flouncing out the door in nothing much more than their underwear.

Nope they were rebelling against their parents religous zealotry and domineering religious dogma. No one in my town sent their kids to the local Catholic school unless they were zealots. Our town had one of the best public schools in our county if not the best.

 

[fix]

Again you are speaking like the two are mutally exclusive they are not… You can teach chastity and abstinence and how to protect yourself if you do fall and give into your hormonal urges.

I see. So, if one falls into a hormonal rage and wants to experience a high we tell them to rob a pharmacy so they get clean drugs.

 

[fix]

Great and why can’t I teach my kids that and teach them to use a condom if they do ever fall?

And when they hear it is acceptable to use that condom do you think they may “fall” more or less often?

 

[lukewarm]

I see. So, if one falls into a hormonal rage and wants to experience a high we tell them to rob a pharmacy so they get clean drugs.

Your ridiculous analogies wore out their welcome a liong time ago.

Fact is a very large percentage of High School and College students engage in some forms or premarital intercourse. Whether it’s 90%, 95%, or 98% is a matter of semantics. Point is it is such a high percentage to not accept reality and teach the safest forms of sex possible is akin to child abuse IMO. A very low percentage of children go on to rob pharmacies, I would say way less than even 1%, your comparisons are totally baseless.

And when they hear it is acceptable to use that condom do you think they may “fall” more or less often?

Well that’s the point they won’t hear it’s acceptable, you are assuming that by me telling them to use a condom states it is O.K. I will tell them it’s wrong same way I will tell them drinking is wrong, however if you do drink call me and I will pick you up and never mention it, don’t get behind the wheel of your car… Me being the reasonable man that I am can understand that by all accounts ~95% of adolescents experiment with their sexuality before marriage I can head off disaster as best I can.

 

[fix]

Your ridiculous analogies wore out their welcome a liong time ago.

Fact is a very large percentage of High School and College students engage in some forms or premarital intercourse.

And that proves what? That we ought to confirm that behavior by saying well it is wrong, but hey you are not capable of doing what is right so please use a condom. Which is saying please do it because we really do not think it is wrong. Are kids that dumb?

Whether it’s 90%, 95%, or 98% is a matter of semantics. Point is it is such a high percentage to not accept reality and teach the safest forms of sex possible is akin to child abuse IMO. A very low percentage of children go on to rob pharmacies, I would say way less than even 1%, your comparisons are totally baseless.

Does frequency of fornication prove it is safe, reliable, and good to use a condom? My analogy is apt as it shows the absurdity of relativism.

Either fornication is a serious and bad act or not. If robbery were not serious you would not find my analogy absurd.

 

[jmcrae]

Great and why can’t I teach my kids that and teach them to use a condom if they do ever fall? You are acting like it’s impossible and I assure you it isn’t.

It’s not “impossible;” it’s just not the right thing to do.

I could tell my kids, “Do not murder, but if you simply must, then be sure to set the fire in the kiln at 1000 degrees Celcius, to get rid of the body.”

Because Lord knows we wouldn’t want the police coming around asking awkward questions.

Instead of that, though, I try to teach my kids anger management skills, and how to get out of situations where tempers are flaring out of control. Will they get mad sometimes? Yes, they will. But I have made it clear in a variety of ways that murder is not an option; they have to find some other way to deal with their anger. (Am I a “religious zealot” for insisting upon this?)

Of course, it makes it a lot easier that society backs me up on that attitude, and that the message is pretty much consistent all the way along the line, from school to Sunday School, to home, to church, everyone is saying the same things on that subject.

Nope they were rebelling against their parents religous zealotry and domineering religious dogma. No one in my town sent their kids to the local Catholic school unless they were zealots. Our town had one of the best public schools in our county if not the best.

I don’t know what the definition of a “zealot” was back then, but today, you’re a “zealot” if you show up to Confession once a month, and go to Mass regularly on Sundays.

As I understand it, Catholic parents are supposed to send their kids to Catholic schools unless it is more than just inconvenient to do so; maybe these “religious zealots” were just obeying this precept.