Is "conversion or reparative" therapy ever ok?

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I agree with you that it has been harmful, though not universally. Just like any therapy, if it is not completely tailored to the individuals needs and their life, it will fail. Terribly.

As a person who has suffered mental health issues and has been hospitalized for them on many occasions and has been through countless therapies, I assure you that there have been some that have had great success and some that have been awful and borderline harmful.
 
Again, I think the main aspect of the article that people might be missing is that this is only for people under the age of 18. A person who isn’t 18 can be much more easily persuaded and coerced by their parents/friends/families/churches, against their wishes and against their own well being.

Though, I would argue, if a 17 year old freely wants to go through with some form a treatment to help him with same sex actions he struggles with and wants to not do (chastity - not so much desires), I don’t know if I see a huge problem with that. The government is perfectly okay with children of much younger ages seemingly changing their genders, which to me, seems a much more damaging idea.
 
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blackforest said:
How to you figure? Is there something in this law forcing LGBTQ people to have sex? Will choosing abstinence be illegal?
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Here is the government’s definition of conversion therapy:

“As defined by the government, conversion therapy means any practice, treatment or service designed to change an individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, eliminate, reduce sexual attraction or sexual behaviour between persons of the same sex . It does not include gender reassignment surgery or any related service.” (emphasis mine)

The Catholic Church as well as other faith traditions do not condone same-sex relations, so expect one more step to increase the tension between faith & the secular state, which in Canada and especially in BC or Ontario is quite aggressively liberal. The definition is quite broad and you can be certain that isn’t a coincidence.
 
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I think this is an incredibly solid argument that needs to be addressed. Parents/teachers and the education system can influence a child to change their gender or sex but this legislation will outlaw influence on changing ones sexual preference. I see this as conflicting and hypocritical on the part of the government.
 
@Miketdobbs

That’s because the powers that be in Ottawa don’t care about civil liberties or human rights or children. It cares about the groups who are lobbying to promote such and such an ideology. It is about power and the lust for power.

Programs designed to change a person’s orientation are bad whereas it is simultaneously okay to promote gender dysphoria in institutions. The double standard is simple: faith traditions fall into the opposite camp of the people who promote the LGBT agenda. Catholics, EO, evangelicals, Muslims, orthodox Jews etc., are all on the chopping block.

It’s pretty disappointing that more people in this thread don’t recognize this. The path of least resistance is seldom the right path.

[I shouldn’t have to clarify this but I will anyway: conversion therapy is hogwash]
 
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blackforest said:
Can you provide some links showing an evidence-basis for conversion therapy?
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I found this.


The problem with this, is like all gender studies, it lacks objectivity, but the same can be said for the APA report. However, I think the bigger difference is whether this is seen as a mental health issue, or a moral issue. I know, I know orientation is not sin. But do people have the right to take action to reduce the near occasion of sin? There has been some cases of allowed chemical castration for those with sexual attraction to children, even though that attraction in and of itself is not sinful.

This whole ban movement is a little to close to regulating religion for my comfort, a growing sign of intolerance from the LGBT community for those who do not subscribe to the morality they believe should be enshrined into law.

I would like to point out that gender transition therapies and surgeries also started without prior proof of their effectiveness. The jury is still out on that, as the suicide rate is higher than the general population. There is no movement to ban that. Can you see why this looks like a double standard, aka, an agenda?

I am reminded of the Shakers, another religious group that could not reproduce. They were only allowed to grow and continue through recruitment of non-Shakers.
 
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The problem with having such laws is that the motivation is not related to mental health but rather to politics.

I know a young man of 22 who told everyone his first year of college that he is a trans woman.
Uncomfortable, insecure and awkward, he was more comfortable being generally just “someone else”. He grew more mature and confident and now considers himself a straight man.

My cousin’s daughtee wanted ONE boyish outfit in second grade. My counter-cultural cousin went whole hog, pushing this pink princess to be a trans boy in appearance and started posting garbage about her “trans kid” all over Facebook for years. Well, the girl is in high school now, grew her hair out, wears skirts all the time and is totally rebelling. She likes boys.

A former friend of mine, also desperate to be the dream liberal mom, pushed this ideation on her daughter in grade school that she had to “choose” her sexual identity and attraction. The daughter had her first best friends and had typical girl crushes on the friends which were not sexual. Pushed by Mom, the gir then joined the LGBT club, so all her friends were gender confused outcasts with all manner of personal problems… I heard all about it constantly…Emo stuff, suicide attempts by friends…chaos and darkness. After graduation the girl moved away and figured out she is straight.

Even my own grandmother went through a weird postpartum disappointment. She wanted a girl and convinced herself my Dad would be a girl. I have a picture of him from 1938 with shoulder length curls (Shirley Temple was all the rage) at about three. Grandpa took him to the barber and Grandma went to bed in tears for days over it. in 1938!

This type of legislation continues this sort of abuse as counselors cannot even look at whether a kid is confused. A counselor cannot pursue questions like "are you sure you feel sexual attraction for your own gender, or are you possibly just not experiencing sexual attraction yet? Have you had an opportunity to become comfortable just as casual friends around anyone your age of the opposite gender yet?’. Even, “are you comfortable growing into an adult body?”

I certainly was mortified when I first learned about French kissing. It sounded very gross. When I learned about sex, I could not imagine being in love with a boy (I’m female) or, God forbid, being naked and touching each other! Push sexual decisions on presexual children and it is disturbing and confusing.

The idea of changing a gay kid into a straight kid…not going to work. But we are creating tons of confused kids due to the liberal agenda to sexualize kids so young, pretending we are ALL on some confused spectrum. 99% of us, once mature, are absolutely straight with zero gender confusion or same sex attraction.
 
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Kindnessmatters said:
The problem with having such laws is that the motivation is not related to mental health but rather to politics.
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And why this is demonstrable and not speculation or fear-mongering is because there are various pseudoscientific therapies that are not being targeted, whereas conversion therapy is, and the definition itself is extremely broad.

So the legislation is not about safety or mental health or children: it’s about power.
 
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I was wondering, what other therapies have been banned? Psychology is one of the least scientific of sciences, as the those who study it are also the studied. It is not easy to determine a lot conclusively, including the benefits of traditional psychotherapy, which has been around more than a century. So, unless there are a lot of other cases of therapies being banned by law, it is hard to see this as anything except an agenda to actively promote homosexuality.

I tried to search it, and the only case I came up with of banned therapies was conversion therapy.
 
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Conversion therapy is the conservative Christian equivalent of the Soviet Re-education Camps that dissidents would attend at a last resort before being shot.

We can’t change people. They can only change themselves.

Homosexuality in a sexually diploid species is anomalous, but that doesn’t mean it’s “fixable” in a particular person.

Your Jesus once said that you guys were to be known by your love. I’d follow that advice versus trying to send someone to conversion therapy.
 
pnewton said:
I was wondering, what other therapies have been banned? Psychology is one of the least scientific of sciences, as the those who study it are also the studied. It is not easy to determine a lot conclusively, including the benefits of traditional psychotherapy, which has been around more than a century. So, unless there are a lot of other cases of therapies being banned by law, it is hard to see this as anything except an agenda to actively promote homosexuality.

I tried to search it, and the only case I came up with of banned therapies was conversion therapy.
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Valid point.

I don’t know that other therapies have been specifically banned, but if you’re going to a health professional (or any other licensed professional) you expect that person to provide the service according to a high standard, based on the state of the art.

For example, if you needed heart surgery, you’d expect state-of-the art medical care. You wouldn’t want a surgeon to say, “You know, this is how heart surgery is done, according to state-of-the-art research . . . but, you know, I think I’ll do it the way they did it in the 1920s as I think my way works better.” That person in fact wouldn’t keep their license.

So I hope that explains why I’m a little leery about this. Health professionals don’t believe it works. It seems to me to be something out of the 1950s.
 
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That was my point. Restricting it from being used on minors is not the same as a ban. This whole thread was originally, IIRC, about another such law in Canada. So no outright bans yet. I also would not be surprised if certain other therapies, whether mental health related or strictly medical/surgical, are also restricted from being used on minors. Also not the same as a ban.
 
gama232 said:
If anyone is seeking help to stop unwanted thoughts or feelings then they should get it. Parental understanding and supervision should be there as well. The judgement of the parents along with the young person should be respected.
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Except it doesn’t work and “conversion therapy” is child abuse. If an adult wants to undergo some psychobabble fakery, then fine, but protecting children should be a paramount duty of any government.
 
whatistrue said:
That was my point. Restricting it from being used on minors is not the same as a ban. This whole thread was originally, IIRC, about another such law in Canada. So no outright bans yet. I also would not be surprised if certain other therapies, whether mental health related or strictly medical/surgical, are also restricted from being used on minors. Also not the same as a ban.
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Just to be clear, I figured that that was your point (that it hasn’t really been “banned”) and I agree with you.

When the ban passed for minors last year in Massachusetts it was clear that (1) the ban only applied to minors and (2) it didn’t apply to “pastoral counseling by a religious leader.”

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pnewton said:
It may be junk science, but there is no real science either way, that is, no control group, no accounting for other factors, no blind testing, etc. This is true of most of what is considered science in regard to gender and sexual orientation.
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Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. And I could just as easily argue that there’s no extensive research data which points to an increase of the LGBT population. That’s down to your perception, which is heavily influenced by media. You know as well as I do that the media loves to portray things that for the most part aren’t the norm in the real world. We have research that shows conversion therapy doesn’t work and presents more harm than positive benefits. If there is a consensus among most of the medical profession that certain therapies or treatments don’t work I’m going to side with them because they know more on the topic than I as a layman do
 
niceatheist said:
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gama232:
If anyone is seeking help to stop unwanted thoughts or feelings then they should get it. Parental understanding and supervision should be there as well. The judgement of the parents along with the young person should be respected.
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Except it doesn’t work and “conversion therapy” is child abuse. If an adult wants to undergo some psychobabble fakery, then fine, but protecting children should be a paramount duty of any government.
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Agreed.

And, just to draw a quick parallel here, the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in blood transfusions as they believe that it’s a violation of God’s law according to their interpretation of the Bible.

I’d support the right of a member of that faith to refuse that treatment for themself, but I wouldn’t support their right to refuse it for their child.
 
signit said:
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whatistrue:
That was my point. Restricting it from being used on minors is not the same as a ban. This whole thread was originally, IIRC, about another such law in Canada. So no outright bans yet. I also would not be surprised if certain other therapies, whether mental health related or strictly medical/surgical, are also restricted from being used on minors. Also not the same as a ban.
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Just to be clear, I figured that that was your point (that it hasn’t really been “banned”) and I agree with you.

When the ban passed for minors last year in Massachusetts it was clear that (1) the ban only applied to minors and (2) it didn’t apply to “pastoral counseling by a religious leader.”

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First of all, general “pastoral counseling” isn’t going to involve turning someone who is gay to being straight. It’s going to involve helping someone deal with their feelings and attractions in a way that allows them to remain a member of good standing in their Church (ie. receive Communion). Conversion therapies, however they are branded, are not about helping someone cope with their sexual attraction, it’s about the underlying claim that you can switch someone’s sexuality. The therapies have no standing in psychological circles, they don’t work, and in many cases they are quite harmful. Frankly, I take a dim view of adults going through such fake therapies, but being an adult, I accept their right to do so. But young people who have not reached the age of majority, who can be actively coerced by their family and their religious leaders, should be protected.

I want the state to force blood transfusions on dying children, even if their parents’ religious convictions say they should not, and I want children protected from predatory pseudo-therapists with snake oil claims about switching them from gay to straight.
 
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