Is Darwin's Theory of Evolution True? Part 4.0

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You have missed the point. Regardless of whether one accepts evolution or creation, scientific understanding relies on facts …
No, I didn’t miss that point, I expressly made that point.
… not theories that can’t be tested.
A scientific theory is tested by attempts to refute it. These are ongoing, continuous and extensive. So far there has been no success.

And no. Tadpoles don’t evolve when they become frogs, any more than babies evolve into adults. But I think you’re joking…
 
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It wouldn’t surprise me if you are in fact an atheist masquerading as a Catholic. Many of your opinons are decidely atheistic.
How strange that my views, which you think are atheistic, are crucial to the survival of Christianity as a credible religion, in the face of yours, which you think are theistic, but are responsible for its decline. Let’s hope you don’t smother it altogether.
The scientific community will not tolerate any criticism of the general theory of evolution … that all life on earth evolved from microbes. It is a scientific dogma that cannot be challenged.
The strength of evolution lies in the continuous attempts by the scientific community to refute it. It is not a dogma and is challenged all the time, so far without success.
 
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Ratio1, sadly your “eg” exactly shows why a single A4 page is entirely inadequate.
 
How do pairs of structures usually evolve? Eg eyes, ears, limbs.

Do thy evolve as one first and then became two or do they evolve from zero to two directly?
Since the evolution of bilateralism, which you could imagine as a kind of mirror-imaging set of genes, evolutionary developments to paired organs only need to happen once to apply to both.
 
ID suffers from the same problem as consciousness in science.

-When people talk about “consciousness,” they normally mean that mysterious quality of being able to know what it’s like to be. . . yourself. But material monists (including most scientists) redefine it as the capacity for a system to interact with its environment or something. They then point to a high-functioning robot and crow about how conscious it is.

-When people talk about “intelligent design,” they normally mean something that is clearly designed, like a building. But ID proponents define design so broadly that any organized system is called “designed.” They then go on to crow that they’ve found proof of an intelligent designer.

Both cases are weak IMO. In the first, we cannot know whether this or that physical system actually has subjective consciousness. We must make some assumptions, like the assumption that I’m not the only person with feelings, or that only people / mammals / warm-blooded animals / living things can be aware.

In the latter case, we cannot know whether a system not designed by people was really designed with intent-- or whether some other process or system has led to a high level of organization which seems so complex that we are tempted to believe it was deliberately created.

“I don’t know” is the best answer for things that are known, not evolution or ID, which draw conclusions on weak inferences.
 
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What sort of “Christian” doesn’t believe that God created life?
The sort of Christian who believes that God is a living God and that He is eternal.

Christians are free to believe that God created the second life, but not the first. That would make God a creature, not the creator.

rossum (who can be very logical sometimes)
 
How do pairs of structures usually evolve? Eg eyes, ears, limbs.

Do thy evolve as one first and then became two or do they evolve from zero to two directly?
They evolve as one; it is the developmental control mechanisms that duplicate eyes etc. You do not have eyes in your toes, though all the cells in your toes have the complete set of eye genes. The eye genes are turned off in the majority of cells in your body. The developmental control mechanisms say “build an eye here” in only two places; everywhere else they turn off those genes. If scientists tweak those mechanisms, such as Hox genes or Pax genes then eyes can appear in strange places.

The left-right symmetry is probably an epigenetic process, with an initial pair of cells starting in left or right configuration and passing that configuration to their descendants on that side of the body segment they are in. See Werner (2012) The Origin, Evolution and Development of Bilateral Symmetry in Multicellular Organisms for the technical detail.

Neil Shubin’s “Your Inner Fish” is very good at explaining this aspect of biology. It is well worth a read.

rossum
 
Why can’t animals evolve from plants?
They could have done, but didn’t. Presumably duplication of lifestyles (autotroph and heterotroph) did not prove the best solution to survival. Later on, in specific circumstances, there evolved a few symbiotic organisms, the lichens.
 
but after so many years for evolution, wouldn’t the theory predicted that at least some of those plants would evolve into animals?
No. Possible evolutionary strategies can be curtailed by already established competition.
 
but what if competition dies out? some animals will one day evolve into dinosaurs? (given the right selective pressures)
 
but what if competition dies out? some animals will one day evolve into dinosaurs? (given the right selective pressures)
We’ve jumped a bit from plants/animals to dinosaurs, but OK. Imagine a (plausible) global warming scenario in which the possession of fur is a distinct disadvantage. All the hairy animals would be under pressure to adapt or die out. Some species might gradually lose all their hair, as hippos and elephants have, and, if predation were an issue, also develop a harder skin, which could be divided into plates to facilitate movement. Armadillos have done something not unrelated. It would not be accurate to call these creatures dinosaurs, but they could look, and behave similarly, in similar environments.

An appropriate analogy is the diversification of marsupials. The last common ancestor of marsupial and placental mammals lived about 90 million years ago, but some species of each are so similar it is difficult to tell them apart, as the environments in which they live have been so similar too.

Be careful, though, not to fall into the trap of thinking that any of this is a prediction. We already know how diverse evolution can be, and how contingent. So when you say "wouldn’t evolutionary theory predict … " this or that, the answer is no. Evolutionary theory could agree that such a thing is possible, but not that it is inevitable.
 
All these assessments of impossibility are based on wishful thinking rather than science. It is admittedly true to that to demonstrate impossibility is extremely difficult, and demonstrating possibility much easier, which is why all the experiments related to evolution indeed suggest that it is possible, not impossible. That is, of course, not the same as ‘proof’ that it is God’s way (Science doesn’t do proof), but it leads to a detailed and coherent explanation for observed phenomena that no form of creationism can match.
I guess this is an example of blind faith in mankind’s capacity to determine the truth without God, a belief in the illusions we create when divorced from what is true.

The possibility that random events at a chemical level will organize themselves in such a manner to first of all produce the simplest cell which will serendipitously go on to mould itself into the complexity that we see in the existence of the person is not science but wishful thinking. That is among the issues that should be plaguing Darwinism, were it actually science and not a utilitarian materialistic mythos adopted by a society eager to accept its message.

The fact that the universe was created in a step-wise fashion with what has been created being utilized to form the next level of creation is Genesis.

That atoms had to exist before the simplest life forms, which in turn needed to exist before those which are more complex appears to be fact. That this randomly happened as a result of the inherent properties of matter and not the eternal Divine Mind is to put on blinkers to common sense.

This has not been proven but assumed. The story of evolution organizes the facts and is presented as being inseperable from the science to secular consumerist society, justifying its mores and standards.
 
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Generally speaking I am a fan of Aloysium’s philosophical approach to the debate, particularly in respect of the continuous, intimate and immediate relationship between God and his creation. However, this comment goes against the grain, in my opinion.
I guess this is an example of blind faith in mankind’s capacity to determine the truth without God, a belief in the illusions we create when divorced from what is true.
Not at all. Completely the opposite. It is an example of my belief that my God-given power of rational thinking will enable me to understand his working out of his creation, that by doing so I shall improve my relationship to him, and that that was the principal reason I was given this power in the first place.
The possibility that random events at a chemical level will organize themselves in such a manner to first of all produce the simplest cell which will serendipitously go on to mould itself into the complexity that we see in the existence of the person is not science but wishful thinking.
Not at all. Completely the opposite. Not only is the possibility a wonderful illustration of the creative imagination of God’s unfettered omnipotence, but as it happens it fits the evidence of the observed universe extremely well.
That is among the issues that should be plaguing Darwinism, were it actually science and not a utilitarian materialistic mythos adopted by a society eager to accept its message.
This is a political shibboleth unworthy of you.
The fact that the universe was created in a step-wise fashion with what has been created being utilized to form the next level of creation is Genesis.
Well, that’s fine. Evolutionists call exactly the same thing Evolution. What’s in a name? A rose by another name would smell as sweet.
… That this randomly happened as a result of the inherent properties of matter and not the eternal Divine Mind is to put on blinkers to common sense.
You’re getting lost again. Randomness. I wish you understood what it meant. Why does matter have its “inherent properties”? Precisely because of the "eternal Divine Mind! I do not recognise the dichotomy between the two.
This has not been proven but assumed.
Aaaaarrrgghh!! “Proven”, again!! The obstinacy of the closed mind. Science is not a proof. It does not set out to be a proof. The word ‘proof’ is alien to science. Why do creationists go on and on and on about it?
The story of evolution organizes the facts and is presented as being inseperable from the science to secular consumerist society, justifying its mores and standards.
You have clearly demonstrated that you know nothing about science, that you have an irrational fear of the evils of materialism, and insufficient faith in God’s plan to trust in his pioneers. Never mind, we’ll get there in the end, dragging the creationists in chains behind us!
 
There Is Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. It deserves to be heard.

“We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutations and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

This list is getting longer…

https://dissentfromdarwin.org/about/

I guess they didn’t read Darwin’s Origin…
 
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