Is Darwin's Theory of Evolution True? Part 4.1

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Glark said:
[Me:] The truth of evolution
[You:] Sounds like fallacious evo-propaganda to me. You seem to be getting theory confused with truth. A truth is something that can be proven to be so. But as you know, a theory cannot be “proven”, therefore it can’t be called “truth”.
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Ah! The joy of selective quotation, the creationist’s friend!

What did I actually say? This: “The truth of evolution has been a subject of Catholic theological discussion for many years”
Are you saying it’s a fact (ie, it can be demonstrated empirically) that all life on earth evolved from microbes?
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Clearly not. I said it was a subject of discussion. I could have expanded it to “the truth or otherwise of evolution” but felt that was unnecessary, as it was clearly implied by the mention of it being discussed.
Glark said:
I came across some Catholic “rad trads” who seem to believe the earth is flat. For the sake of their sanity, I hope they were joking.
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I think you’ll find that your only example of my asking for “theologians who do not think evolution is compatible with the Bible”, Paula Haigh, thought exactly that.
Glark said:
Although I will probably die an evo-infidel, I think there is a lot of merit in the Darwinist theory that flowers evolved from a dragon.
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I’m not familiar with that idea. It is not Darwinist.
Glark said:
With evolution theory, all things are possible (thanks to the marvels of a vivid imagination).
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No. Spontaneous creation of living organisms ex nihilo is not possible.
Glark said:
Don’t forget the “fish gills” in human embryos. And what about all those tiny, widdle cells in the human body? They are powerful evidence that humans evolved from a single-cell organism!
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They are indeed. We’ll make an evolutionist of you yet.
Glark said:
Sure! If a sausage-dog can be bred form a wolf, birds can be bred from a dinosaur. It’s called evolution.
But you realize, of course, that is illegal to keep dinosaurs in captivity.
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Birds could certainly be bred from dinosaurs, given a big enough farm and sufficient time, and much more quickly than actually occurred a hundred million years ago. It is not illegal to keep dinosaurs in captivity in the UK.
Glark said:
What “environmental pressures” would change a dinosaur into a bird?
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Mostly living in a colder climate, coupled to predation.
 
Techno2000 said:
If that"s not vague, I don’t know that is. 🙂
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I’m busy working on my latest work, Dinosaur Husbandry and the Selective Breeding of Birds, which I will be pleased to send you a free copy of upon completion. It’s extremely detailed.
 
rossum said:
No. Birds had already evolved and were living alongside the other dinosaurs. Try imagining a big meteor hitting earth now, and killing all the land and marine mammals, only bats manage to survive.
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Way too simplified :roll_eyes:
 
rossum said:
No. Birds had already evolved and were living alongside the other dinosaurs.
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So, the Birds that were living alongside the other dinosaurs had already went through the millions and millions of years of evolution ? 🤔
 
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Hugh_Farey said:
Birds could certainly be bred from dinosaurs, given a big enough farm and sufficient time, and much more quickly than actually occurred a hundred million years ago.
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I don’t think so. Otherwise evolution is not the result of random mutations but rather an organizing principle beyond that of the four basic interactions of matter, chemistry in other words. For this to be true there would have to be other factors involved which could include:
  • on a purely material level, built-in, designed in other words, attributes of the genome, which would go on to express themselves under certain environmental conditions
  • an immediate effect with transcendent cause, under those specific conditions
  • the direct intervention of God, if it is in accordance with His will
Experiments can be carried out in the mind, or its extension with computer simulations, if they are not possible in real life, which the experiment you are suggesting, is not. Either way your hypothesis cannot be validated, but thinking it out does reveal a contradiction in people’s thinking about how change could have occured in an evolutionary fashion during the history of the world.
 
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ratio1 said:
Just wondering

Are all these discussions new? As in have we discussed some of these questions before in previous versions of this thread? Are we going around in circles?
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We are working our way to a discussion of the shroud of Turin.
Just taking the long way around.
 
I disagree. I think that the mutations which have resulted in scales becoming feathers and so on are likely to come round again. Any specific mutation is not vanishingly unlikely. On a farm, it would be possible to recognise and exploit the mutations as they arose, although I agree that in the wild, a different series of mutations would be more likely than the same set again. As you know, I think God’s will is to let his universe unfold according to his laws of rationality.

This thought-experiment does not require validation, whatever that means. It does not contradict anything so far discovered by science or theology.
 
In my hypothetical dinosaur ranch, if I could control all the dinosaurs on it.And shield them from “environmental pressures” I could in effect stopped the Bird from ever coming into existence…yes…or…no ?
 
Yes, indeed, it would be very easy not to breed birds from dinosaurs.
 
There are how many links within a DNA molecule, any of which may randomly fail thereby resulting in a protein with a different electrostatic structural configuration and therefore different properties? How likely is it that the particular glitches caused by noise in the system, viral disruption of the DNA, toxins or radiation, those physical properties that are known to influence the genome, will repeat themselves? As you say, “God’s will is to let his universe unfold according to his laws of rationality”. Those laws go way beyond the limited understanding that the current scientific model describes. Sorry to say you remain unconvincing. But that is the nature of belief; I understand it makes sense to you.

I see ID as another materialistically based model of life along the lines of evolutionary theory but seeing things more clearly in that something has to exist before it can mutate, that order and complexity cannot arise from chaos. It sees the need for a creative act that must come from an intelligent source superior to the the order contained within its creation. When you speak about God’s laws of rationality, I hear ID. I think it’s more complicated and far more simple, the whole universe, each individual being from the subatomic to the complexity of the person, individual and a component of something greater, grounded in and brought into existence from the Triune Godhead, which is Existence itself. The physical is merely the tip of the ontological iceberg whose structure can be known directly through the senses. Having an open heart and mind, the physical sciences will point to Genesis which provides us with so much more than the mchanics of it all.
 
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Hugh_Farey said:
Yes, indeed, it would be very easy not to breed birds from dinosaurs.
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If you can’t breed cows and sheep to be anything other than cows and sheep.How can you breed dinosaurs to be anything other than dinosaurs ?
 
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What kind of “environmental pressures” would have to happen on my ranch to trigger the dinosaurs to start evolving into birds ?
 
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So, as long as I kept my ranch going, there would be no Birds in the world today?
 
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