Is Double Predestination compatible with a belief in purgatory

[RiderOnTheClouds]

Even though I am not a member of the Anglican Communion, and in fact I am a baptised Catholic, who can receive communion, my current theological beliefs align best with Anglicanism rather than Catholicism, in that I believe in a mixture of Catholic and Protestant ideas. I believe in transubstantiation, purgatory, monasticism and clerical celibacy on one hand, but I reject the use of saints as mediators (largely due to Hebrews 7:24-25), and salvation through grace by faith alone, particularly through double predestination, since that is my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

My question is, can such a belief be reconciled with a belief in purgatory? I struggle with the idea that God would predestine someone to purgatory, that seems absurd.

 

[End_Timer]

“Double predestination is the belief that God actively chooses people for damnation and it was declared a heresy. (Double: in both damnation and salvation.)” I copied this off an older thread, so have no
reference. Foreknowledge is NOT predestination, allowing is NOT causing. God most always
keeps His foreknowledge to Himself !

 

[Thom18]

If God would predestine someone (which He doesn’t), they would go to Heaven or Hell- how they get there isn’t important (if one goes to purgatory, it would be because of their “predestination” for Heaven).

Why do you take the Protestant ideas over those first established by the Church?

 

[RiderOnTheClouds]

Because it fits better with scripture

 

[Zynxensar]

I don’t want to start a Protestant vs Catholic debate but you should look at the Church’s interpretation of it. The Protestants are divided, have personal interpretations of scripture (because they feel it’s “the right one”), and have varying doctrines.

 

[MT1926]

salvation through grace by faith alone, particularly through double predestination, since that is my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8:

Just curious as to why you believe Jesus put your salvation in your own hands and based on your personal interpretation of scripture?

I’m not trying to be rude here, I’m actually trying to get you to think about it. For me I would never ever want that kind of responsibility. It would be like saying your salvation is determined by the equation 2X=Y. If you get the correct answer for Y you are saved. Well the value of Y is based on X. So if you get to place the value in for X you will always believe you have the correct answer for Y. But here is the rub, until you die you have no way of knowing if if you guessed the correct value of X. Why would Jesus set it up that way? Why would He give us a Bible without anyway of knowing if we are interpreting it correctly?

Second Question what is your definition of double predestination?

From my understanding this intervention originated with Calvin. He believed that not only does God predestine some to heaven, he also ordains that others will go to hell so that there is nothing they can do to reverse their eternal damnation. Among other problems, there is no free will of any consequence for those who are divinely reprobate. In other words, they will ultimately be damned, even if they cooperate with God’s grace, and can’t do a thing about it.

The Catholic understanding of predestination or divine election encompasses man’s free-will response in accepting God’s gift of eternal salvation (cooperating with God’s grace).

My question is, can such a belief be reconciled with a belief in purgatory? I struggle with the idea that God would predestine someone to purgatory, that seems absurd.

The way you ask this question makes me wonder if you understand the Church’s teaching on Purgatory.

Purgatory isn’t a destination it is just the wash room before heaven, because the Bible tells us nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev 21:27) and that we must be perfect to enter heaven (Mt 5:48). So some of us will need to go to Purgatory to purge us of our attachment to certain sins.

So basically, double predestination can’t be compatible with this definition of purgatory. Because Double predestination is a Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. If you are predestined (contrary to popular OSAS belief I believe there is absolutely no way you could ever know you were predestined) then you are going to heaven regardless of the sins you committed. Basically, God doesn’t care that you are a dung heap, He is willing to ignore the smell and you don’t need purged of you sin attachments. He is more than willing to let dirty, smelly, unclean people into heaven

For me I say no thanks. Even if God is willing to ignore my stench, I can still smell it. I want cleaned up. I want purged, so I can rest in peace.

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[RiderOnTheClouds]

I now repudiate what I said before, I interpret Ephesians 2:8 as referring to a saving grace which we can reject, and yes, I now consider myself to be a Catholic.

 

[slyboots1]

Having been Anglican for 20 years I do not believe Anglicans believe in any predestination. I could be wrong of course. I was wrong once …it was a Tuesday, I think. Calvinists can believe in predestination. As in possibly Presbyterians.
(Catholic now for 24 years)

 

[Latin]

If God would predestine someone (which He doesn’t), they would go to Heaven or Hell- how they get there isn’t important (if one goes to purgatory, it would be because of their “predestination” for Heaven).

Why do you take the Protestant ideas over those first established by the Church?

According to Catholic soteriology, Predestination to Heaven is a DE FIDE Dogma.

Predestination to heaven is God’s irrevocable free gift of His children/ elect.

God predestined His children/ elect to Heaven with an Absolute Decree and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.

God predestines no one to purgatory.

God bless.

 

[po18guy]

Double predestination is not compatible with Christianity. Period.

It is a 16th century invention with zero scriptural basis - at least to those who have not shredded entire books of Holy Writ in a quest for validation of personal opinions.

 

[ZMystiCat]

It is a 16th century invention with zero scriptural basis - at least to those who have not shredded entire books of Holy Writ in a quest for validation of personal opinions.

Even with removing the deuterocanon, double predestination still has some serious problems Scripturally, notably in God’s stated desire to not see anyone perish. It’s probably why many Calvinists have embraced seeing God has possessing a “will of command” and a “will of decree”, which itself opens up a whole new set of Scriptural problems.

 

[Latin]

Double predestination is not compatible with Christianity. Period.

It is a 16th century invention with zero scriptural basis - at least to those who have not shredded entire books of Holy Writ in a quest for validation of personal opinions.

I perfectly agree, double predestination is not compatible with Christianity.

We, Catholics have to believe, no one is able to go to heaven unless predestined to heaven, because this is a DE FIDE Dogma.

Predestination of God’s children/ elect to heaven is an undeserved free gift of God, if we could deserve it, could not be free nor could it be God’s gift, we would own it.

For God’s children/ elect to be able to say yes/ receive their call to heaven is also God’s infallible gift. – Without Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)
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God Bless.

 

[Latin]

The Catholic understanding of predestination or divine election encompasses man’s free-will response in accepting God’s gift of eternal salvation (cooperating with God’s grace).

God Bless

I believe MT you are correct, but do you know MT the way our free will works that we are able to choose the good?
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose.
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Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good from God. ST, Pt I, Q 23, Art 5.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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As you see MT, all the GLORY that we are able to cooperate with the graces of God belongs to God, not to us.
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Jesus said: Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5), our free-will must be aided by the graces of God to be able to choose the good.
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EVERY our good free-will decisions comes from God, our unaided free-will decisions useful only to choose acts of sins.
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God bless.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

You mean no one to Hell, not purgatory.

We choose Hell ourselves

 

[Latin]

You mean no one to Hell, not purgatory.

We choose Hell ourselves

In Catholic Soteriology no one predestined to purgatory, this doesn’t mean some people doesn’t go to purgatory who need to go there for a limited time.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
To predestined to heaven is God’s choice (not ours) as follows:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.

THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita.

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

Predestination | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

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To answer your question Roseeurekacross is very simple:

Predestination to heaven is God’s free gift, it is wholly gratuitous entirely unmerited.
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The answer of your question Roseeurekacross is simple mathematics:

Number of the human race – Number of the predestined to heaven = Number of the residents in hell.

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God’s Universal Salvific Will is everyone saved, meaning; if God Predestined everyone to Heaven then everyone saved. – This is 100% up to God’s decision.

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God bless.

 

[Zaccheus]

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Salvation is the gift of God.

You cannot make me give you a gift but if I offer a gift you can accept or reject it.

We cannot make God give us the gift of salvation but once He offers that gift we can accept or reject it. We have free will.

Thus it is possible to go to Hell because of unrepentant rejection.
Thus it is possible to repent and be saved.
Thus it is possible to be saved but still have sins to expiate. Hence Purgatory.

 

[Latin]

RiderOnTheClouds:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Salvation is the gift of God.

You cannot make me give you a gift but if I offer a gift you can accept or reject it.

We cannot make God give us the gift of salvation but once He offers that gift we can accept or reject it. We have free will.

Thus it is possible to go to Hell because of unrepentant rejection.
Thus it is possible to repent and be saved.
Thus it is possible to be saved but still have sins to expiate. Hence Purgatory.

According to Catholic Soteriology, if even one predestined to heaven would reject God’s gift of grace called to heaven, or even one would die in the state of mortal sin and end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.

So we can be SURE no one who are predestined to heaven end up in hell.
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God bless.

 

[Zaccheus]

According to Catholic Soteriology, if even one predestined to heaven would reject God’s gift of grace called to heaven, or even one would die in the state of mortal sin and end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.

So we can be SURE no one who are predestined to heaven end up in hell.

Then perhaps I misunderstand what predestination means in this context.

Edit: what is Soteriology?

 

[Latin]

Latin:

According to Catholic Soteriology, if even one predestined to heaven would reject God’s gift of grace called to heaven, or even one would die in the state of mortal sin and end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.

So we can be SURE no one who are predestined to heaven end up in hell.

Then perhaps I misunderstand what predestination means in this context.

Edit: what is Soteriology?

In a short answer:

Catholic Soteriology is the (study of) Catholic doctrines of salvation.

In the academic field of religious studies, soteriology is understood by scholars as representing a key theme in a number of different religions and is often studied in a comparative context; that is, comparing various ideas about what salvation is and how it is obtained.
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God bless.

 

[MT1926]

I believe MT you are correct, but do you know MT the way our free will works that we are able to choose the good?

Yes Latin I do, we have already been over this many times in the past on both of your accounts.

You know I will just point out that you are picking and choosing from Catholic teaching to believe what you want to believe and at times you will take things farther than the Catholic Church intended them to go.

Do you really want to go through this again a forth time?

God Bless