Is eternal suffering pointless?

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Divine teaching is really the loving words and deeds of Jesus. Some people say that psychology and therapy have worked miracles in their lives; similarly, studying the words of Jesus prayerfully can transform the mind toward perception of miracles. As you might say that if the whole schema of faith is illogical and deformed, then the miracle resides in the persistence of the phenomena for so many years and with such preservation of purpose. This miracle can be perceived readily in the functional stability of lives that would have otherwise been lost to confusion and disarray as in those people you apparently reference in your response to Aquinas. Aquinas calls confirmation the miracles; and these miracles are like mutations of genes in that they take time and are not predictable – though themes do arise. Hence, Church authority is akin to scientific expert opinion conceived thus; It cannot catalyze the conversion of its substrates (subjects) without the enzyme of miracle, which in turn has chemical precursor, prayer; and the environmental reaction in the petri dish, is heated by the outpouring love of God found in scripture reflection and in human hearts predisposed by all that is good in them.
I’m so sorry Michael, I’m not sure what you are going for here. The only thing I know about the “words of Jesus” is what is written in the Gospels. I am not sure if they are faithful representations of fact or not. It would be an article of faith for me to affirm this in the first place, and I cannot. Does that make sense? I also do not know if everything in the Torah happened as a matter of fact. This doesn’t matter to me though, because whether or not I will be tortured for eternity is not contingent upon my belief in the thousands of pigeons falling in the desert or manna.
A easily affordable insurance policy.
God cannot be deceived and will not be mocked. To pretend to believe and “go through the motions” of faith is an insult to God and does damage to one’s integrity of spirit. Questions of faith, love, eternity, and truth are not the province of Pascal’s gambling advice.
I am not inclined to agree. It is essentially an act of bad faith to say that my faith is precluded by its formation under the wrong environmental conditions, like threats or coercions, because the range of possible “temperaments” in humanity is sufficiently broad to allow for faith to genuinely form at any time and under any conditions. God does not disappear when we are threatened, and we have been pre-warned that his wrath can be awesome.
One could imagine the cruel Roman executioner and the would-be martyr:

Roman: “Renounce your faith in Jesus and bow before Jupiter, or die!”
Would-be martyr: “Ok sounds good! The range of possible temperaments in humanity is sufficiently broad to allow for my faith in Jupiter to form at this time under these conditions.”

:rolleyes:
 
The title of this thread is problematic because it implicates that everyone agrees souls in hell suffer eternally because God is trying to make a point. God is not trying to make a point.

I have been listening to some of Father Fortea’s lectures and one of the is entitled: Explanation of Hell. There he explains that God permits the souls in hell to continue to exists because He loves them. They chose to be there and God allows it. He mitigates their suffering and the suffering they can cause others - otherwise they will always be in constant torment and agony.

I started a thread with very sloppy writings and filled with typos on a recorded lecture of Father Fortea. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=976499 I like his explanation of hell, it is complete and is not an answer that only raises other questions as some incomplete answer do.
 
I give you points for apparently trying to make your argument more forceful by including heaps of drama. 🙂

No one was “created to burn forever”, and that position is heretical. That view is held by Calvinists, and not by Catholics.

Moreover, the suffering of the souls in hell is not pointless: it fulfills their desires. Those who are damned are those who have rejected God *with sufficient knowledge to make the opposite decision. *Therefore, the pain of being separated from God was precisely what they willed.

Why doesn’t God just destroy them? For the same reason He doesn’t just destroy the demons: God loves them, and He therefore wills their good. Ultimately, the state of their existence is a greater good than their non-existence. But moreover, He is just. He gives everyone the sufficient grace to be saved and to choose Him, but He still desires folks to *actually *choose Him. If they do not choose Him, He doesn’t override their decision. He judges that they were given sufficient means to make a particular decision, and then He permits them to have the consequences they willed on account of His justice.

Does this imply that hell only exists in order to give people free choices? No, because the same could be accomplished by annihilation.

I would recommend you listen to some lectures by a Jewish philosopher on this subject: hebrewcatholic.net/15-beatitude-and-the-last-things-part-2/

Incidentally, like you, I was once intrigued by the “Noachide” movement, and by Orthodox Judaism in general. (The Noachide movement is certainly a lot easier to follow than Christianity, with far lower standards in terms of dogma and discipline.)

But I hope you’ll hear the other side out more than your tone might suggest, because the Orthodox Jews are quite mistaken in their views on the Messiah. I think their critiques of the New Testament especially are incredibly outdated, and they seem to rely on 19th century hyper-skepticism to get around the clear evidence for Christ, His resurrection, and why all this Christianity stuff just “accidentally” occurred one generation before the final destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Their interpretation of the Tanakh/Old Testament is rooted in the Talmud, and ours is rooted in the New Testament and in Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. I would suggest you compare the two lenses a bit more, especially since Orthodox Jews will insist you have no right to even study Torah or the Talmud, and to therefore get a better grounding in where their interpretive presuppositions even come from. (For example, they could prove from the Torah that an Oral Tradition would be useful, and perhaps even necessary. But I’m not sure that you could make a scholarly case that we know without doubt what was contained in that Tradition before the Talmud was compiled, which was after Christ. The nature and content of Tradition is the biggest dividing point in Judaism, with only a minority holding to the view of the Orthodox. Moreover, it is authoritative dogma from the Talmud that the world is some 6,000 years old. This is beyond contention, and it alone should cast serious doubts on the infallibility of the Rabbinic tradition. I’m sorry, but this is a much bigger problem than hell.)

Judaism was nothing more than Catholicism before the Jewish Messiah; and Catholicism is nothing more than Judaism after the Messiah came. Don’t be fooled by a tiny minority who need and deserve their own Jewish Messiah even more than you or I do.
Nice post. 👍
 
The title of this thread is problematic because it implicates that everyone agrees souls in hell suffer eternally because God is trying to make a point. God is not trying to make a point.

I have been listening to some of Father Fortea’s lectures and one of the is entitled: Explanation of Hell. There he explains that God permits the souls in hell to continue to exists because He loves them. They chose to be there and God allows it. He mitigates their suffering and the suffering they can cause others - otherwise they will always be in constant torment and agony.

I started a thread with very sloppy writings and filled with typos on a recorded lecture of Father Fortea. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=976499 I like his explanation of hell, it is complete and is not an answer that only raises other questions as some incomplete answer do.
Desafortunadamente, mi espanol no es suficiente para escuchar a la conferencia. 😊
Hay una traduccion en ingles?
 
Desafortunadamente, mi espanol no es suficiente para escuchar a la conferencia. 😊
Hay una traduccion en ingles?
No. But, you what. I am going to shoot an email to Father Fortea now and ask him to please provide an English translation. I think many people may benefit from is presentation. I think it’s smooth and complete. I like it.

Let’s see if I can present to you an outline of the presentation…let me get dinner going… :D…son is calling…😛
 
I’m so sorry Michael, I’m not sure what you are going for here. The only thing I know about the “words of Jesus” is what is written in the Gospels. I am not sure if they are faithful representations of fact or not. It would be an article of faith for me to affirm this in the first place, and I cannot. Does that make sense? I also do not know if everything in the Torah happened as a matter of fact. This doesn’t matter to me though, because whether or not I will be tortured for eternity is not contingent upon my belief in the thousands of pigeons falling in the desert or manna.
No problem, PumpkinCookie. Try taking as an example a miserable person…a real wretch of a dude. One day he hears that this Jesus went about doing good all day. So our dude gives 10 dollars to a real down and out pauper. Will the pauper be unable to buy his bread because the 10 dollars is of wretched origin? Isn’t there a crumb of merit for the wretch for at least experimenting, or even mocking, what is essentially good? Where does the good go? Surely it is conserved somewhere. When it comes to our acts of Charity, I’m afraid most of are probably sleep walking, as opposed to intentionally doing the work of Jesus. This is how you gets Saints: they are fully conscious of their acts? and thus are really just like Jesus. A mystic might even say there is no real difference.
God cannot be deceived and will not be mocked. To pretend to believe and “go through the motions” of faith is an insult to God and does damage to one’s integrity of spirit. Questions of faith, love, eternity, and truth are not the province of Pascal’s gambling advice.
Why does it insult God? “He has no need for bullocks and sacrifices.” Check the Torah!
I don’t advocate assembly line spirituality, per se, but it is better than none, and far better than evil. I think the good is Objective as well as subjective – whereas your viewpoint is purely subjective?
One could imagine the cruel Roman executioner and the would-be martyr:
Roman: “Renounce your faith in Jesus and bow before Jupiter, or die!”
Would-be martyr: “Ok sounds good! The range of possible temperaments in humanity is sufficiently broad to allow for my faith in Jupiter to form at this time under these conditions.”
True. Let the truth in whatever form reign. There is a story about Saint Stephen in the Acts of the Apostles. Don’t know if your familiar or not. But he essentially says that if this Jesus is God, then his followers will be here to stay. In your example, the Christian would be called to martyrdom. It is rare. God would hopefully forgive our human weakness in such a circumstance. Hopefully. Else he would say that his temperament was sufficiently robust to withstand a falsity to preserve life.
Who would not bend down to help a farm animal with its foot in a hole on the Sabbath? The Sabbath is for man, not man for the Sabbath, my friend.
 
Folks, folks, Father Fortea is an extraordinary priest. He gets five stars in my book.

Fortea http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/rating/rating_5.gif

He is fantastic! I could easily become fanatical about him, lol. The other day I was looking for the books of his that are on sale in Amazon - there is only one. I thought he should get those books translated etc… well, you know what’s going on?1? he is providing a lot of his writings to the public for free… Wow! Just Wow!

Matthew 10:8
…7"And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. 9"Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

His master work Summa Daemoniaca is available for free download! Here: aciprensa.com/noticias/aci-prensa-publica-summa-daemoniaca-el-libro-mas-famoso-del-padre-fortea-52425/
Oooooh, am I going to enjoy reading that one! Just the table of content is an education in and of itself. http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/images/smilies/geek.gif

PumpkinCookie, I will try to tell you a little bit of what Father Fortea presents in the lecture. Well, Father Fortea takes his listeners by the hands and takes them to hell and gives them a guided tour. As you are walking down the road to an understanding of hell, he point to the sign of a road that goes there named: Revenge is Mine Said the Lord - hence the accounts must be paid - this way to hell… and Fortea says - not that road we keep going this way. Then there comes another sign of another road that reads: Sins has created a an imbalance and the account must be paid to bring back harmony - this way to hell. Fortea says - not that road either - we stay on this road.

Now, those two other roads take you to hell but leave you outside looking in. They bring your understanding to it’s border. But, with Fortea’s road - you go right in and he gives you tour. :yup:

So, where does the journey begin and what is the name of that road that takes inside and to a deeper and more profound understanding of hell? It is the Prodigal Son. Now, hell still remains a mystery but it looses a lot of it’s mystique, mystery etc… with Fortea’s way.

So, we start with the understanding that God the Father is as the father of the prodigal son. He always has His arms open and is ready to welcome back His children.

Be back…
 
God does not disappear when we are threatened,** and we have been pre-warned that his wrath can be awesome.**
This is purely a threatening tactic. Do you honestly believe that an all powerful being gets angry and his anger can be awesome? A being that creates a universe does not get angry or threaten his “puny” creation. If he does then he is an evil being. Sorry if I’m trivialising the debate but many years ago I saw a Star Trek episode where a powerful being was threatening Captain Kirk and wanted him to kneel before him in worship. The powerful being was a child who had escaped from a Kindergarten. His parents took him back home and apologised to Captain Kirk for his behaviour. I guess I have a similar outlook on God as Gene Roddenberry had. Like him, I credit God with far more love, intellect, morals and understanding than way too much of Holy Scripture gives Him.
 
This is purely a threatening tactic. Do you honestly believe that an all powerful being gets angry and his anger can be awesome? A being that creates a universe does not get angry or threaten his “puny” creation. If he does then he is an evil being. Sorry if I’m trivialising the debate but many years ago I saw a Star Trek episode where a powerful being was threatening Captain Kirk and wanted him to kneel before him in worship. The powerful being was a child who had escaped from a Kindergarten. His parents took him back home and apologised to Captain Kirk for his behaviour. I guess I have a similar outlook on God as Gene Roddenberry had. Like him, I credit God with far more love, intellect, morals and understanding than way too much of Holy Scripture gives Him.
Do you “credit” Jesus with far less love, intellect, morals and understanding?
 
This is purely a threatening tactic. Do you honestly believe that an all powerful being gets angry and his anger can be awesome? A being that creates a universe does not get angry or threaten his “puny” creation. If he does then he is an evil being. Sorry if I’m trivialising the debate but many years ago I saw a Star Trek episode where a powerful being was threatening Captain Kirk and wanted him to kneel before him in worship. The powerful being was a child who had escaped from a Kindergarten. His parents took him back home and apologised to Captain Kirk for his behaviour. I guess I have a similar outlook on God as Gene Roddenberry had. Like him, I credit God with far more love, intellect, morals and understanding than way too much of Holy Scripture gives Him.
Oh yes, the great bird’s trio, Spock, Kirk, and Bones. Well sure they were humorous, intellectual, and commanded our respect as a former lover of shows. But even in Star Trek, as in life, much of whether something is wrath has a strong subjective component. Whereas sin is contrasted to the specific acts of charity and is observable objectively like the latter in process, wrath, like the former, sin, is not so always. Inner interpretation reveals that wrath’s worst form of arrival is death. This death the lord has nullified by rising again. When we know that we have sinned greatly, wrath appears greatly. Death is dangerous we are told for one who dies in sin. It is also hopefully a momentous occasion for newness. I can only hope that the universal wrath we are all subject to derives its awesomeness from changing departure from this world into the beginning of an eternal life that never truly ended
in the first place. Thus, for the God I invoke without anger, his anger is sufficient to establish his wrath, but his wrath is not always his anger.
 
PumpkinCookie;13104042] Indeed, give thanks for the endless sufferings of the souls in hell, for without them, you would not have the free will to have been one of the few on the path to heaven. Your free will and happiness have been purchased at a fearsome cost: the endless weeping, mourning, and suffering of those who are miraculously sustained in existence only to experience never-ending torment, regret, and pain. Your freely-willed happiness rests upon a massive edifice of endless suffering. It’s all for you. The screams, the crushing despair, the pain and torment of both body and soul, all out of love for your free will. A gift to you from above. Eternal collateral damage. The chaff. Created to burn forever for your free will.
Oh silly me. I have foolishly believed for years that it was Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross that freed me from the bondage of sin. Free will comes into play when you decide to accept His sacrifice as payment for those sins. It’s an individual thing and does not depend upon the sufferings of some imagined disparate group suffering eternally in Hell. Once the saved are safely ensconced in their eternal Heavenly abode, what need would there be for the aforementioned, "endless sufferings of the souls in hell"
A Bible verse to dispel that myth,
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7).
Now tell me, are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?
Credits to:- www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/how-long-does-hell-burn

You would do well to meditate on the sufferings of Christ, rather than wasting valuable time contemplating a non-existent group. To the question:- " How many souls are in Hell at present?", the correct answer is ZERO. No one goes to Hell until after the Great White Throne Judgement:- Revelation 20:11-15.

The term often used in English and U.S Contract Law could well apply here, “Time is of the Essence” - it is precious, limited and fast running out - please use it wisely!

Protector.
 
PumpkinCookie, the question Fortea sets out to answer is : How can a God who is infinitely good , a God who is mercy, how can he permit that there be souls who are always suffering? How can God be happy knowing some of His children are suffering and will continue to for eternity?

Now, I am just going to present the point here, I am not a professional writing and I am just banging on the keyboards. I don’t have time to present a professional presentation and editi, edit, edit. So here we go:
  • Hell needs to be understood via the parable of the Prodigal Son. The Father is always with open arms and ready to welcome back His children.
  • The Father only loves. The Father does not make anyone suffer. God does not make anyone suffer.
  • In this life we may know or have heard of stories where although the parents are great, one of the children hates the parents or maybe it’s an only child. The children leave the parents and some return but others never do.
  • This is how to understand hell, there isn’t one verse in Sacred Scripture which says that God tortures those in hell. It is said that there is suffering in hell.
  • Souls go to hell because when they die they refuse to be with God and have given a definitely 'NO" .
  • It would be useless to permit or force them to be heaven (and from the sounds of things they would just ruin heaven).
  • These thoughts allows us to understand hell in another way, not like the judicial judge who says you have broken the order and so now you must suffer.You have not obey me - so now I will punish you.
-The frontiers of hell start on earth (my wording - sounds cool).
  • To the same degree we destroy the good that is in us - we suffer.
  • There are sins of weakness that do not require God to intervene and he does not intervene.
  • When sins goes beyond that which is permissible - when perversion reaches a certain degree.
  • Evil when is horrible - you do not have to be in hell to experience the fire. Evil - most horrible stuff (not talking about eating meat on Wednesday or Friday of Lent) create embers in the soul.
  • Hell is the prolongation of that situation.
  • The souls of the damned do not have bodies - so the ‘fire’ is a spiritual fire.
-Expulsion - they are not welcome to the banquet - in scripture people are kicked out of the communion of saints - but they are not sent or ordered to hell.
  • Fortea uses the analogy of prisons. There are people who know if they do xyz they may end up in prison for the rest of their life - yet they do it.
Following up on Fortea’s representation - well, should we kill all the prisoners? Fortea says that they that damned have there thoughts and desires intact and so they go from one thought to another and they recall their memories etc… they are existing and they suffer but the suffering is not constant and God mitigates their suffering. They can make each other suffer - imagine that - if God did not intervene it would be constant torture to be with the most evil human beings - who could be the most evil to whom…

PumkinCookie, I hope this helps.

Peace

P.s. While on earth, Fortea tells us, God gives the soul graces to get back on the right track. It could be by inspiration - get on that train - it will be good to go visit mom - but on the fifth or what ever time - it’s over. In one of those opportunities if the soul continues down the wrong path - it’s over. There is not return. A person can be obstinate and God may put people in there way to guide them …but the deeper the person goes down that road and when the graces have been used up - there is no return. The person becomes what the person has become by their own choosing.
 
Do you “credit” Jesus with far less love, intellect, morals and understanding?
No I do not. I have already mentioned my feelings on Jesus and His teaching on hell. You don’t rule out the possibility categorically that people are in hell because it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus. In a not too similar way, my disbelief in the Biblical hell seems to contradict the teaching of Jesus. I have nothing against a finite time of humane punishment. All too often in the Old Testament we do find a God who does resemble the child like super being from an episode of Star Trek. I do credit God with far more love, intellect, morals and understanding than is seen all too often in the Old Testament.
 
Neither have you!
Agreed but I would never attempt to describe the kind of people who are in hell.
Non sequitur. They are not in Hell…
I completely agree.
On the contrary. It is merciful to spare those who are in Heaven the pride and hatred of those Hell - if such persons exist. It is impossible to compel everyone to love their neighbour.
I’m certain those in heaven would not need to be spared the pride and hatred of those in hell. - if such persons exist. After finite punishment and feeling the power of God’s love everyone will love their neighbour
You have not given one statement by the Magisterium that children go to Hell.
Extract from the website below; author Michael Lofton:
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church has also spoken about Hell. The Ecumenical Council of Florence decreed, “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to Hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” (Session 5).

I couldn’t find anything specific to the Magisterium and children above the age of reason in hell but the above quote from the Magisterium describes the souls of people with mortal sin going to hell. It also includes the souls of babies and children (before reaching the age of reason?) who die with original sin alone going to hell. I’m confused because I believe the Church teaches that the guilt of original sin is not passed on through generations.
It’s an interesting article in that yours and mine individual beliefs on hell are covered in the opening paragraph.
churchmilitant.com/news/article/know-the-faith-the-doctrine-of-hell

Extract from the website below; author Ronald L. Conte Jr. Again, this article is very interesting.
“The Magisterium has NEVER taught that little children who die without formal Baptism certainly die in original sin alone. The faithful may adhere to the pious opinion, based on faith in the Mercy of God, that these little children (prenatals, infants, young children, who die at that age) receive a baptism of blood or of desire in this life, so that they die in a state of grace. Thus their eternal and final destination will be Heaven, not Hell”.

“The teaching of the Church on salvation can be summed up in two assertions:
All those who die in a state of grace will have eternal happiness in Heaven.
All those who die in a state of unrepentant actual mortal sin, or in a state of original sin only, will have eternal unhappiness in Hell”.
ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/heresy-on-the-limbo-of-hell/
Now, I’m totally confused!
Non sequitur. The existence of Hell does not imply anything whatsoever about the eternal destiny of individuals.
It is a non sequitur but our Church does teach that people with an unconfessed mortal sin go to hell.
You are entitled to your belief like everyone else. My belief is that only God knows who - if anyone - is in Hell. I don’t rule out that possibility categorically because it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
You are also entitled your belief but the fact remains that our Church does teach that certain people go to hell. However, our Church also teaches in some circumstances that “God’s mercy may prevail” which I personally find very refreshing compared to other Christian denominations. One such case is that of suicide. Having lost a close friend this way, it was very helpful to his grieving family and friends to hear the priest say this at his funeral.
On the contrary you are dogmatically asserting that no one is in Hell whereas I leave that decision to God.
I agree with you that I am being dogmatic because for me hell and eternal suffering is so completely wrong that in my mind it is actually immoral. However, I am warming to your take on the situation in “leaving the decision to God”.
“Only Christians are eligible to go to heaven” conflicts with the teaching of the Church about baptism of desire and the words of Jesus “I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also.”
I completely agree with you.
My belief is that only God knows who - if anyone - is in Hell. I don’t rule out that possibility categorically because it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
I have the same problem with my disbelief in hell in that it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
Claims do not amount to knowledge…
I agree but Christians including Catholics continually use the above verse as “knowledge” that only a few will go to heaven.
Our Church believes we go there if we reject God’s love. That puts it in a nutshell.
I do not believe that anyone would reject God’s love when standing face to face with Him. I think many people reject God’s love because there is no tangible evidence of His love in their lives. All the atheists I know quote the lack of evidence for their disbelief in God.
I didn’t intend that quotation to be aimed at you! The possibility of going to Hell applies to all of us. God tortures no one but that doesn’t mean we are incapable of torturing ourselves as the result of pride, ambition and lust for power…
Whatever, no one should be put into a position where they torture themselves for eternity.
No amount of thought and biblical references amounts to infallibility! On that happy note I bid you a peaceful night - with thoughts of Heaven.🙂
Et cum spiritu tuo – “and also with you” oops "And with your spirit”. 🙂
 
Agreed but I would never attempt to describe the kind of people who are in hell.
Jesus told us that callous lack of love for others is the basic reason.
I’m certain those in heaven would not need to be spared the pride and hatred of those in hell. - if such persons exist. After finite punishment and feeling the power of God’s love everyone will love their neighbour
Then Jesus was mistaken…
Extract from the website below; author Michael Lofton:
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church has also spoken about Hell. The Ecumenical Council of Florence decreed, “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to Hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” (Session 5).
There is no reason why those who have not sinned should go to Hell. The Catechism states that original sin does not entail a personal fault.
I couldn’t find anything specific to the Magisterium and children above the age of reason in hell but the above quote from the Magisterium describes the souls of people with mortal sin going to hell. It also includes the souls of babies and children (before reaching the age of reason?) who die with original sin alone going to hell. I’m confused because I believe the Church teaches that the guilt of original sin is not passed on through generations.
It’s an interesting article in that yours and mine individual beliefs on hell are covered in the opening paragraph.
churchmilitant.com/news/a…ctrine-of-hell
We cannot be guilty for the sins of others but we are adversely affected.
Extract from the website below; author Ronald L. Conte Jr. Again, this article is very interesting.
“The Magisterium has NEVER taught that little children who die without formal Baptism certainly die in original sin alone. The faithful may adhere to the pious opinion, based on faith in the Mercy of God, that these little children (prenatals, infants, young children, who die at that age) receive a baptism of blood or of desire in this life, so that they die in a state of grace. Thus their eternal and final destination will be Heaven, not Hell”.
“The teaching of the Church on salvation can be summed up in two assertions:
All those who die in a state of grace will have eternal happiness in Heaven.
All those who die in a state of unrepentant actual mortal sin, or in a state of original sin only, will have eternal unhappiness in Hell”.
ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/…limbo-of-hell/
Now, I’m totally confused!
If in doubt remember God’s infinite mercy. 🙂
It is a non sequitur but our Church does teach that people with an unconfessed mortal sin go to hell.
There are usually exceptions to general rules. Suppose a person doesn’t have the opportunity to confess?
You are also entitled to your belief but the fact remains that our Church does teach that certain people go to hell.
It doesn’t specify individuals!
However, our Church also teaches in some circumstances that “God’s mercy may prevail” which I personally find very refreshing compared to other Christian denominations. One such case is that of suicide. Having lost a close friend this way, it was very helpful to his grieving family and friends to hear the priest say this at his funeral.
God has the last word, thank God!
I agree with you that I am being dogmatic because for me hell and eternal suffering is so completely wrong that in my mind it is actually immoral. However, I am warming to your take on the situation in “leaving the decision to God”.
That is obviously the wisest decision anyone can make. 🙂
I completely agree with you.
In other words no one is excluded from Heaven unless they choose to be excluded.
My belief is that only God knows who - if anyone - is in Hell. I don’t rule out that possibility categorically because it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
I have the same problem with my disbelief in hell in that it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
If in doubt say nowt!
I agree but Christians including Catholics continually use the above verse as “knowledge” that only a few will go to heaven.
There are more than thirty thousand Christian sects because individuals have become too dogmatic.
I do not believe that anyone would reject God’s love when standing face to face with Him.
That is a privilege which is granted only when we have fully repented and made amends as far as we can…
I think many people reject God’s love because there is no tangible evidence of His love in their lives. All the atheists I know quote the lack of evidence for their disbelief in God.
In that case they are not rejecting God’s love! If they believe there is no tangible evidence of His love in their lives they are tragically mistaken.
I didn’t intend that quotation to be aimed at you! The possibility of going to Hell applies to all of us. God tortures no one but that doesn’t mean we are incapable of torturing ourselves as the result of pride, ambition and lust for power…
Whatever, no one should be put into a position where they torture themselves for eternity.

If we have free will it is inevitable that we have the opportunity to choose how to live - or die - even if it entails suffering. Both Jesus and Satan demonstrated that!
No amount of thought and biblical references amounts to infallibility! On that happy note I bid you a peaceful night - with thoughts of Heaven.
Et cum spiritu tuo – “and also with you” oops "And with your spirit”.

As I sing the Latin Mass in a choir every week I prefer “Et cum spiritu tuo” and “Pax tecum”. 🙂
 
On the point about babies dying in original sin:

The Magisterium infallibly teaches (Florence, Lyons II) that those who die in original sin alone go to Hell. But the Magisterium has not decided the question as to whether unbaptized infants die in original sin.

My interpretation is that the souls who die in original sin alone are those adults who died unrepentant from the actual mortal sin of omission of never having found sanctifying grace in this life, despite ample opportunity. So only those guilty of some type of actual mortal sin go to Hell. Infants are not guilty, so I believe they are given the state of grace before death.

“Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7.

“For God forbid that all children, of whom daily so great a multitude die, would perish, but that also for these, the merciful God, who wishes no one to perish, has procured some remedy unto salvation…” Pope Innocent III, Denzinger, n. 410.

“Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God.” Second Vatican Council, Gaudium et Spes, n. 22.

“Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, n. 10
 
On the point about babies dying in original sin:

The Magisterium infallibly teaches (Florence, Lyons II) that those who die in original sin alone go to Hell. But the Magisterium has not decided the question as to whether unbaptized infants die in original sin.

My interpretation is that the souls who die in original sin alone are those adults who died unrepentant from the actual mortal sin of omission of never having found sanctifying grace in this life, despite ample opportunity. So only those guilty of some type of actual mortal sin go to Hell. Infants are not guilty, so I believe they are given the state of grace before death.

“Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7.

“For God forbid that all children, of whom daily so great a multitude die, would perish, but that also for these, the merciful God, who wishes no one to perish, has procured some remedy unto salvation…” Pope Innocent III, Denzinger, n. 410.

“Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God.” Second Vatican Council, Gaudium et Spes, n. 22.

“Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, n. 10
These are consoling words, Ron, but I don’t understand “the actual mortal sin of omission of never having found sanctifying grace in this life, despite ample opportunity”. Please will you explain.
 
Oh yes, the great bird’s trio, Spock, Kirk, and Bones. Well sure they were humorous, intellectual, and commanded our respect as a former lover of shows. But even in Star Trek, as in life, much of whether something is wrath has a strong subjective component. Whereas sin is contrasted to the specific acts of charity and is observable objectively like the latter in process, wrath, like the former, sin, is not so always. Inner interpretation reveals that wrath’s worst form of arrival is death. This death the lord has nullified by rising again. When we know that we have sinned greatly, wrath appears greatly. Death is dangerous we are told for one who dies in sin. It is also hopefully a momentous occasion for newness. I can only hope that the universal wrath we are all subject to derives its awesomeness from changing departure from this world into the beginning of an eternal life that never truly ended
in the first place. Thus, for the God I invoke without anger, his anger is sufficient to establish his wrath, but his wrath is not always his anger.
Wow, you’ve made something that is easy to understand into something which is difficult. There are other meanings for wrath but they include: extreme anger, rage, fury, or outrage. I cannot understand how an omnipotent could express these feelings. He could feel disappointed by our actions which rightfully may lead to some form of punishment. However, this punishment must be humane and finite otherwise God’s justice is very poor justice and certainly well below the standard of human justice in an advanced nation.
 
These are consoling words, Ron, but I don’t understand “the actual mortal sin of omission of never having found sanctifying grace in this life, despite ample opportunity”. Please will you explain.
Every person who has lived into their adult years, and who has sufficient use of reason and free will, is able to obtain at least a baptism of desire by the love of neighbor. Many people also have the opportunity to be baptized by water, since they know about Christianity and the Church. If anyone is so selfish as to never choose to love their neighbor with a true selfless spiritual love (by which they would obtain an implicit baptism of desire), they are guilty of a sin of omission. If this sin of omission has the full culpability of an actual mortal sin, then the person can be condemned to Hell for that sin. They die in a state of original sin, since they did not obtain any form of baptism, which wipes away original sin.
 
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