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Jelrak_TB
Guest
It is possible…for considering the abundant wastage in nature seemingly God appears to mind very little if not all arrive at their intended destination…
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jmcrae
Guest
Good point. The goal is that “humanity” achieve Heaven - not “every human being”. And free will seems to exclude any actual requirement or expectation that every human being will make it. As long as one person gets there, the goal is achieved.
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tonyrey
Guest
How could wastage in nature be reduced or completely eliminated? It is easy to criticise but to create is rather more difficult…
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tonyrey
Guest
It certainly entails frustration! “Why isn’t life better? What have we done to deserve this? Why do we have share with others? How can we be expected to tolerate all these ignorant people?What right do they have to come here and disturb us? Can’t they sort out their own problems and leave us in peace?”
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Jelrak_TB
Guest
I have no criticism for the process…it simply appears appropriate to consider that a baker who might scatter the flour might hardly be expected to give grave concern to the liberal loss of other, equally important ingredients…
To clarify: if God is willing to allow such disparities between the vast number of seeds that are planted and the few that take root why would he not be expected to be equally so carefree in the spiritual realm?
For is it not possible that God might have other races throughout the universe that might equally call him Father? If so, how many of such beings might He truly be expected to require in Heaven?
Is it not possible that He might simply seek the absolute best quality specimen(s) from each created sphere for His purposes…discarding the rest…?
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tonyrey
Guest
There is a vast difference between physical and spiritual attributes. The body is perishable and subject to the laws of nature whereas the soul is indestructible, infinitely valuable and not subject to the law of the jungle - unless you believe we are just strange freaks which have emerged by chance from mindless processes. In that case the whole caboodle is nonsensical and not worth bothering about…
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Abba
Guest
Here is another explanation for the reason hell is eternal punishment:
This explanation is in harmony with the teachings in the sermons (which I have been listening to lately
) of Saint Vianny (The Priest of Ars). In one of the sermons he tells of a person who made a pact with the devil. The person was going to live a liberal life but, just wanted Satan to let him know three days before his death that he had three days left. Lo and behold, the time came. Although Satan is the father of lies, he kept his word and informed the man that he had only three days left. The original plan of the man was to repent and be saved after living his life up. But, he had worn himself out so much, that he could not focus enough to be seriously concerned about the salvation of his soul, yet, he focused very well when the talk was about business and making money.
In other words, our minds become fixated in a certain way of evaluating life and existence. I can see how it would be difficult for a person who has rejected God all their lives mostly on account of self-love, would have a difficult time turn around at the last moment - the inclination would be lacking. Not that it is not do able. My father did it. My father played the atheist most of his life and in his last year of his life turned back to Jesus. He had been angry at God because God did not respond to his prayer when he was fourteen years old.
foicatholique.me/catholicisme-doctrine-catholique/lenfer/pourquoi-lenfer-est-eternel/
This explanation is in harmony with the teachings in the sermons (which I have been listening to lately
) of Saint Vianny (The Priest of Ars). In one of the sermons he tells of a person who made a pact with the devil. The person was going to live a liberal life but, just wanted Satan to let him know three days before his death that he had three days left. Lo and behold, the time came. Although Satan is the father of lies, he kept his word and informed the man that he had only three days left. The original plan of the man was to repent and be saved after living his life up. But, he had worn himself out so much, that he could not focus enough to be seriously concerned about the salvation of his soul, yet, he focused very well when the talk was about business and making money.In other words, our minds become fixated in a certain way of evaluating life and existence. I can see how it would be difficult for a person who has rejected God all their lives mostly on account of self-love, would have a difficult time turn around at the last moment - the inclination would be lacking. Not that it is not do able. My father did it. My father played the atheist most of his life and in his last year of his life turned back to Jesus. He had been angry at God because God did not respond to his prayer when he was fourteen years old.
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arte
Guest
What a strange statement you make. According to you people in hell chose to be totally free of obligations to others. Is that what you are saying?
Lining up God’s attributes with what we are told about Him is completely compatible and plain commonsense. We are told that God has love and mercy beyond anything we can comprehend because He is a divine being. I posses love and mercy for my fellow man and I do not believe that any of mankind deserves to be tortured for ever. If I believe that with my human mind then God can do far better than me.
I have debated this many times and there is always a mixed bag of comments as in there are and there aren’t children in hell. If you check my posts you will see I put a question mark after children in hell for this very reason. From the Catholic Doors Ministry:
“If a baptised child does wrong prior to having reached the age of reason, that wrong is not considered a sin that is held against the child on Judgment Day. **But, if a baptised child age 8 and over **does commit mortal sins and dies without having confessed such sins, he faces eternal damnation unless the mercy of God, for unknown reasons, dictates otherwise”.
catholicdoors.com/faq/qu353.htm
I can well remember the above being taught to me without “unless the mercy of God, for unknown reasons, dictates otherwise” in preparation for my first Holy Communion at the age of 8yrs. Even with the statement in, it reads that our Church is still erring on the side of children with mortal sins going to hell. If not then they would have said: “no children go to hell”.
According to our Church, anyone with an unconfessed mortal on their soul at death goes to hell. I am certain that these people are not all like Hitler or Stalin otherwise there wouldn’t be many people left on our planet.
According to Catholic Doors Ministry a baptised child of 8 yrs and older has reached the “age of reason” and therefore they believe the child is morally responsible otherwise they would have said: “no children go to hell because they are not morally responsible”.
What do you believe then?Thank God I don’t believe such nonsense.
The following Bible verse is often quoted to claim that only Christians can go to heaven. If this is the case then the rest of mankind must be going to hell. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). The following Bible verse is often quoted to claim that only a few will go to heaven and most will go to hell: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matthew 7:13–14).
“But his (Jesus’) words, together with the force and frequency of his warnings about hell, surely suggest that many are lost rather than few”.
“Is it reasonable, then, to conclude that a great many people go to hell. Is this a well-founded conclusion, based on the undeniable prevalence of objective mortal sins and a consideration of human intelligence and freedom, together with the truth that God offers the grace to avoid sin? ** I think we should say it is not unlikely that many are lost. We should definitely not hold the opinion that few are lost.**
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4275
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Vico
Guest
Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Those that shun the Holy Spirit shun the ability to believe which is the “unforgivable sin”. As Aquinas describes, one with sufficient reason for scientific knowledge would lose the merit:The problem is that “moved by the authority of Divine teaching confirmed by miracles” is a belief in the first place. I don’t believe that the Catholic Church has divine authority, and I’ve never seen a miracle confirming the same. I see a human religious institution like any other.
I understand Aquinas as saying: “belief is assent to a teacher with divine authority confirmed by miracles, even if the content of the proposed beliefs are unintelligible to reason.” Fine, however, to consider a human institution as having that divine authority in the first place is itself a belief that would require another, superior divine authority to meet his own criteria of meritorious belief. You may respond that this authority is Jesus. That is all well and good, but I have no reason to suppose much about Jesus, because those who have told me about him are not trustworthy by any reasonable metric. They say such fantastic things that are so incredibly unlikely (and of which I cannot confirm they have true knowledge), that the meager evidence provided is simply insufficient.
I do not know Jesus. Never met him. I’ve heard lots of contradictory things about him, but he is no more real to me than Hannibal or Socrates. I’ve read fantastic tales about Hannibal, and I similarly have little reason to suppose that they are actual fact. For the same reason I don’t have a good enough reason to think Mohammed was God’s prophet, I don’t have a good enough reason to believe Jesus was God. For the same reason I do not believe “The Watchtower” speaks with the voice of God, I do not believe the same of the Catholic Church, or any other church.
Further, the kind of “belief” Aquinas is describing here is actually a mode of “obedience” rather than belief (at best). At worst, it is a mode of spiritual self-deception and self-destruction.
For instance, my wife has a PhD in math and I am unable to understand many of the propositions she understands as “true” because I do not have the requisite training or power of reason. I trust that these propositions are true because she is an expert. However, it can’t be said that I “believe them.” I merely suppose they are true and don’t pay it any further attention.
However, are the propositions of faith similarly esoteric and obscure, like abstract high level math? Should we trust the experts? When the priest says “this piece of bread is God, kneel and worship it,” should we mouth “Amen” though our common sense and intuition rage against something prima facie false? I don’t know whether homologous lie groups can be interpolated over Hilbert space or whatever, but I have obvious reasons to suppose that bread is not God himself! My wife asks me to believe she has a true understanding of something that is not intelligible to me, and that is OK because it doesn’t ultimately matter. The church asks me to believe something obviously false about the most important things, and provides either no or seriously dubious evidence, and that is not OK!
On top of it, they make threats. “You better pretend to believe this, because you could die any second, and if you don’t believe, it is straight to eternal doom, do not pass Go, do not collect $200 for you!”
Anyway, to pretend to believe something just to escape the threat of punishment is to debase oneself and do violence to one’s own humanity. Feigned belief under threat of torture is not laudable humility, it is craven ignobility and should be scorned and shunned.
The believer has sufficient motive for believing, for he is moved by the authority of Divine teaching confirmed by miracles, and, what is more, by the inward instinct of the Divine invitation: hence he does not believe lightly. He has not, however, sufficient reason for scientific knowledge, hence he does not lose the merit.
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arte
Guest
Chimo wrote the statement from St Maria Faustina’s vision of hell slightly wrong. She said: “But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell” and not “they do not know about this (the - my words) existence of hell”. The difference is important because St Maria Faustina is saying that most of the people in hell had been told hell existed but did not believe in its existence. Just a few weeks ago a church friend told me about St Maria Faustina’s vision of hell because he knew that I didn’t believe in hell. Basically, it’s a scare tactic aimed at all of us who do not believe in hell.So the point of hell is that it is an effective “scare tactic?” Faustina refute this, most ironically, by stating that most of the souls in hell didn’t know it existed! I guess it wasn’t such an effective scare tactic then, was it? Unless, God doesn’t really desire all to be saved, and is OK with torturing some in order to scare others enough to save them. This is reminiscent of a mafioso.
“Nice soul ya got there, it’d be a shame if something happened to it.”
“What do you mean?”
“Well, who knows, it could end up being tortured for eternity in fire, that’s what happened to Johnson just down the street. You’d do anything to avoid that, right? All ya gotta do is pay, pray, and obey buddy and you’re good to go.”
A mafioso is OK with killing Johnson in order to scare others into submission. Do you think God is this way too?
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tonyrey
Guest
People in Hell** choose** to be totally free of obligations to others.
Of course. You’re not infallible and your rejection of Hell is completely incompatible and contrary to commonsense because it contradicts the teaching of Jesus.
Canon Law is not infallible. The IQ, knowledge and circumstances of children have to be taken into account and even then God’s mercy prevails. “Suffer little children…”
Legalism has always been a common defect of religious people. Jesus condemned the Pharisees…
Do you know that Hitler or Stalin are in Hell? Do you **know **anyone who has died with an unconfessed mortal sin? If not you are not in a position who goes to Hell and who doesn’t.
Does the CDM know who goes to Hell?
What I have stated quite clearly.
“those who find it” doesn’t exclude all those who are guided by the Holy Spirit! Nor does it exclude Purgatory…
Nonsense! It is absurd to mince words when people are confronted with great danger. They need to be constantly reminded:
1 Peter 5:8
“not unlikely” are the key words. It means they are guessing!
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Jelrak_TB
Guest
It is possible there are such differences…but how might one be certain the same opinion may be held by God? Is the physical necessarily less difficult to create and/or maintain than the spiritual…?There is a vast difference between physical and spiritual attributes. The body is perishable and subject to the laws of nature whereas the soul is indestructible, infinitely valuable and not subject to the law of the jungle - unless you believe we are just strange freaks which have emerged by chance from mindless processes. In that case the whole caboodle is nonsensical and not worth bothering about…
Perhaps the very permanence of the spirit necessitates that only a very select few reside in Heaven if the duration be for eternity…?
As for my beliefs with regards to the jungle? I could not say for certain. It is hoped that we are more than mere animals, but I cannot prove it…yet certainly I seemingly wish for such to be so, for otherwise I must certainly ask myself why I spend as much time on this site…?
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arte
Guest
How do you know this? You have never been to hell. People from all kinds of religions and the non religious show obligations to others such as their family, friends, giving to and doing charitable work, etc……….
I am not infallible but my rejection of hell is completely compatible and not contrary to commonsense even if it contradicts the teaching of Jesus. Eternal damnation is completely incompatible with Jesus’ mission of divine love, forgiveness and mercy. It is also completely incompatible with God’s attributes of divine love, forgiveness and mercy.
“Canon law is concerned with discipline. Infallibility has to do with faith and morals. So of itself, canon law is not infallible. However, insofar as canon law deals with matters that the Church considers infallible,** then such content is infallible.** Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P., Catholic Answers Apologist.
From the above, children going to hell is a matter of faith and morals and therefore falls under infallibility.
You have changed your tune from: “Children are not morally responsible” which means that all children do not go to hell. **
You are stating the positive and not me. Therefore, if you fully believe in hell, then you should accept the fact that our Church errs on the side of children going there. As with “children are not morally responsible”, Catholic Doors Ministry does not state: “the IQ, knowledge and circumstances of children have to be taken into account”. ** I completely agree with “even then God’s mercy prevails” because I believe that God’s mercy including His love and forgiveness prevails for everyone and not just children.
My Quote was: I can well remember the above (after 1st Holy Communion you can go to hell with a mortal sin on your soul) being taught to me in preparation for my first Holy Communion at the age of 8yrs. It appears that you reject Catholic teaching when it does not line up with your take on hell. Again you are submitting the positive on hell not me.
No one knows who does or does not go to hell but the Church’s teaching on the subject is very clear in that only Christians are eligible to go to heaven and anyone with an unconfessed mortal sin goes to hell.
My Quote was: If you believe that hell exists and the overwhelming vast majority of the human race is going to end up there for eternity, then you seem to have a warped view of God.
Your answer was: 'Thank God I don’t believe such nonsense".
My reply was: What do you believe then?
Could you please state quite clearly again what your position is to save me going through your posts.
I quoted from the Bible: “For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” Matthew 7:13–14).
Whatever it does or does not include, this Bible verse is used to claim that only a few will go to heaven.
My quote was: “But his (Jesus’) words, together with the force and frequency of his warnings about hell, **surely suggest that many are lost rather than few”. **
I was quoting from Catholic Culture.org to support Catholic teaching **that many are lost. **
At the end of the day, our Church believes in hell and that souls go there to be punished for an eternity.
Many thanks for the warning and I say that with sincerity. I do not believe that it is the devil that causes mine and other Catholic brothers and sisters to disbelieve in hell. Hell and eternal suffering goes against the grain of the attributes of God. I just cannot believe that a divine being who is capable of creating a universe and “God knows” how many other universes could even consider for one millisecond torturing mere humans for an eternity.
My quote was: “I think we should say it is not unlikely that many are lost. We should definitely not hold the opinion that few are lost."“not unlikely” are the key words. It means they are guessing!
Again, I was quoting from Catholic Culture.org to support Catholic teaching that many are lost and not just a few. I did not like their use of double negatives which confuses their case. However, a lot of thought and biblical references went into their statement on hell so I disagree that they were guessing.
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GodMadeMe
Guest
If i choose to reject love for all eternity because do not wish to serve love, this is not incompatible with love and mercy. God’s Mercy is that i get to fulfill my choice instead of being annihilated as if my existence has no value. My existence is good even if i am suffering. I don’t get to say my existence is not good since this is true independent of my decisions.
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arte
Guest
I assume you mean that someone does not accept Jesus as their saviour by: “If I choose to reject love for all eternity”. There are a myriad of reasons why people do not accept Jesus as their saviour but none of them, unless they are extremely evil individuals, would be because they reject love. I am not sure what you mean by: “because I do not wish to serve love” but I assume you mean to serve God. There are likely a lot of people especially in western society that do not want anything to do with religion at all or the God they read about in the Bible. Don’t you blame them on both counts? They see how religion can cause lots of wars, violence, division in society and hatred. They also see a God in the Bible who is more a God of vengeance and violence than a God of love.
So it’s God’s mercy that allows people to fulfil their choice to go to hell for eternity. You are using the same logic that makes people not to want anything to do with religion at all and with it Christianity. You are also describing the tyrannical God that often appears in the Bible. An existence that entails suffering for an eternity is not good and is an existence without any value. I am certain that anyone given the choice would much prefer to be annihilated than suffer excruciating agony 24/7 in hell for an eternity.
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arte
Guest
I’m sorry but I meant to ask you what you meant by the above statement. Did you mean to write: “I don’t get to say my existence is not good since this is truly dependent on my decisions”.
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tonyrey
Guest
Neither have you!
Non sequitur. They are not in Hell…
On the contrary. It is merciful to spare those who are in Heaven the pride and hatred of those Hell - if such persons exist. It is impossible to compel everyone to love their neighbour.
You have not given one statement by the Magisterium that children go to Hell.
Non sequitur. The existence of Hell does not imply anything whatsoever about the eternal destiny of individuals.
You are entitled to your belief like everyone else. My belief is that only God knows who - if anyone - is in Hell. I don’t rule out that possibility categorically because it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
On the contrary you are dogmatically asserting that no one is in Hell whereas I leave that decision to God.
“only Christians are eligible to go to heaven” conflicts with the teaching of the Church about baptism of desire and the words of Jesus “I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also.”
My belief is that only God knows who - if anyone - is in Hell. I don’t rule out that possibility categorically because it seems to conflict with the teaching of Jesus.
Claims do not amount to knowledge…
Our Church believes we go there if we reject God’s love. That puts it in a nutshell.
I didn’t intend that quotation to be aimed at you! The possibility of going to Hell applies to all of us. God tortures no one but that doesn’t mean we are incapable of torturing ourselves as the result of pride, ambition and lust for power…
No amount of thought and biblical references amounts to infallibility! On that happy note I bid you a peaceful night - with thoughts of Heaven.
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tonyrey
Guest
If we consider our power of reason, self-control, conscience, understanding of justice, self-control, appreciation of beauty and capacity for love we exist on a much higher level than physical organisms.
I don’t see why that should be the case. In fact I think the opposite is true because the vast majority of people are not diabolically evil.
I think that shows you are on the right track! If we believe in truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love we can’t go far wrong. We don’t live on bread alone…
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Michael19682
Guest
Divine teaching is really the loving words and deeds of Jesus. Some people say that psychology and therapy have worked miracles in their lives; similarly, studying the words of Jesus prayerfully can transform the mind toward perception of miracles. As you might say that if the whole schema of faith is illogical and deformed, then the miracle resides in the persistence of the phenomena for so many years and with such preservation of purpose. This miracle can be perceived readily in the functional stability of lives that would have otherwise been lost to confusion and disarray as in those people you apparently reference in your response to Aquinas. Aquinas calls confirmation the miracles; and these miracles are like mutations of genes in that they take time and are not predictable – though themes do arise. Hence, Church authority is akin to scientific expert opinion conceived thus; It cannot catalyze the conversion of its substrates (subjects) without the enzyme of miracle, which in turn has chemical precursor, prayer; and the environmental reaction in the petri dish, is heated by the outpouring love of God found in scripture reflection and in human hearts predisposed by all that is good in them.
A easily affordable insurance policy.On top of it, they make threats. “You better pretend to believe this, because you could die any second, and if you don’t believe, it is straight to eternal doom, do not pass Go, do not collect $200 for you!”
I am not inclined to agree. It is essentially an act of bad faith to say that my faith is precluded by its formation under the wrong environmental conditions, like threats or coercions, because the range of possible “temperaments” in humanity is sufficiently broad to allow for faith to genuinely form at any time and under any conditions. God does not disappear when we are threatened, and we have been pre-warned that his wrath can be awesome.
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chimo
Guest
It is not meant to be scare tactic for it is a reality that can exist. The problem with people who enter into a life of sin is they do not know what will happen to their spiritual nature as a result of it. People do not go to hell for they must be in this state first before they die. You have to be doing something very bad to be in such a state. This means one needs to obey the natural law which is set before us if you do not follow the Christian way. Don’t you understand that people can do great sinning thinking they can get away with it. Even the natural law which is there before us can tell us the difference. If St. Maria found out that most of the souls who were in hell did not know of hell this means they had decided to relish in their sins without any thought to its destructive means. If you persist in sinning greatly you may found yourself in a situation where even the Lord cannot reach you. It is not the Lord who tortures you, it is your sins which does this. Jesus came not to condemn man but to condemn the sin which can condemn man. It is the sin or sins which does this to the souls who are presently in hell. What Jesus can do before it can be too late for the sinner is to help release those sins from the sinner so that His grace will be able to save the sinner from what condemnation the sin brings.So the point of hell is that it is an effective “scare tactic?” Faustina refute this, most ironically, by stating that most of the souls in hell didn’t know it existed! I guess it wasn’t such an effective scare tactic then, was it? Unless, God doesn’t really desire all to be saved, and is OK with torturing some in order to scare others enough to save them. This is reminiscent of a mafioso.
“Nice soul ya got there, it’d be a shame if something happened to it.”
“What do you mean?”
“Well, who knows, it could end up being tortured for eternity in fire, that’s what happened to Johnson just down the street. You’d do anything to avoid that, right? All ya gotta do is pay, pray, and obey buddy and you’re good to go.”
A mafioso is OK with killing Johnson in order to scare others into submission. Do you think God is this way too?
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