Is eternal suffering pointless?

[fisherman_carl]

To endlessly support another’s self-torment is sadistic.

I’m fine with a temporary hell that ends with either heaven or total annihilation. Justice must be done. Endless hell is not true justice, however.

It is not necessarily true that our souls are intrinsically indestructible. What can be created can be destroyed.

It is not right to use some people to save others. It is morally repugnant to create the many for endless torment so that the few may be saved. The ends don’t justify the means.

Since God is the Creator he has the right to do as he sees fit, to create life, to sustain it, or to take it away. Personally, I would like to see as many people as possible saved, even after death, those who are not too far gone that repentance is still possible. Although, I suppose you could call that Purgatory. Whatever God does I trust that it will be the best possible solution as I believe he is completely just and merciful. Nonetheless, for those who eternally reject God they may find themselves in an eternal separation from God.

As far as the end justifying the means, you could make the same argument against God allowing evil at all. If the possibility of evil were not allowed we could not have free will to be able to love. God could have made us like robots so that we could not choose evil, but then we could not know love either. For love that is coerced is not true love. Only love that is freely chosen is.

If you were right that God would not be morally justified in creating an eternal hell then as I said before it would just mean it would disprove an eternal hell. Yet, other kinds of hell may still exist. Or annihilation may exist. But it seems to me that if someone who committed many injustices just ceased to exist that would not be fair justice for those who suffered the injustices.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t some Jews believe that there may be an eternal hell for some? I heard that there was a Purgatory for 6 months for most, but for some that were really wicked a hell?

 

[tonyrey]

The principle of economy also suggests that monism is the ultimate truth of existence. Surely you don’t accept it on those grounds?

Of course I do. Belief in the Creator implies that there is only one Ultimate Being.

Unfortunately, we are divisible. This is precisely what happens at the moment of death: our being is divided.

Apparently but our souls are not created independently of our bodies. One doesn’t appear after the other!

A loving father does not allow his rebellious children to torment themselves and each other for eternity, but he would allow them to go their own way if they truly hate him, though that way leads to death.

The soul is immortal because we are made in God’s image and likeness.

Life is a gift that is not owed to us.

Nothing can be owed to us if we don’t exist! But once we are created we have rights and our Creator has obligations towards us. No father can disown his children unless he is a devil.

Endless torment turns that gift into a nightmare. It really would be better if the damned had never been born. If stubborn sinners are eventually annihilated though, at least they had a chance to live well and love God.

Though they die, their existence is a mitigated loss. Hell would make their loss infinite.

If we are annihilated everything is lost! Nothing can alter the fact that it is sheer and total destruction. Hell on the other hand is not a state of sheer misery, as I have pointed out. It must have its compensations; otherwise no one would choose it.

God’s might is right.

If that were so God would be the Devil! Power alone doesn’t make a person good. In fact God’s power stems from His love which is more creative than anything else in heaven and earth. All that evil can do is to destroy.

Annihilation is not a diabolical punishment, but the logical result of permanently severing the relationship between us and God, the source of all life.

If a human father did that he would be condemned as a monster. Nothing could justify erasing a person like a totally valueless and insignificant error. The fault would be the parent’s, not the child’s. No finite offence can ever deserve infinite and final obliteration **as if the person should never have been born. **God does not make mistakes. He certainly isn’t inconsistent. He knows exactly what He is doing when He creates us and to think otherwise is an insult to the Source of all that is most precious and beautiful.

 

[tonyrey]

Since God is the Creator he has the right to do as he sees fit, to create life, to sustain it, or to take it away. Personally, I would like to see as many people as possible saved, even after death, those who are not too far gone that repentance is still possible. Although, I suppose you could call that Purgatory. Whatever God does I trust that it will be the best possible solution as I believe he is completely just and merciful. Nonetheless, for those who eternally reject God they may find themselves in an eternal separation from God.

As far as the end justifying the means, you could make the same argument against God allowing evil at all. If the possibility of evil were not allowed we could not have free will to be able to love. God could have made us like robots so that we could not choose evil, but then we could not know love either. For love that is coerced is not true love. Only love that is freely chosen is.

If you were right that God would not be morally justified in creating an eternal hell then as I said before it would just mean it would disprove an eternal hell. Yet, other kinds of hell may still exist. Or annihilation may exist. But it seems to me that if someone who committed many injustices just ceased to exist that would not be fair justice for those who suffered the injustices.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t some Jews believe that there may be an eternal hell for some? I heard that there was a Purgatory for 6 months for most, but for some that were really wicked a hell?

God doesn’t create Hell! Those who reject His love are the ones responsible for their isolation and self-inflicted misery. They choose to be totally independent and are willing to pay the price for having absolute power over their own destiny because it gives them great pleasure and satisfaction. They have no obligations whatsoever and are free to live as they choose within the limits of their **little **kingdom - but that’s the drawback and that’s where the frustration comes in. They are slaves to themselves…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Since God is the Creator he has the right to do as he sees fit…

I agree with your first paragraph. For me, eternal separation from God is equivalent to annihilation by definition. God is being, if we are separated from being, then we are not.

I agree with your second paragraph. However, I do not think the justification of evil is “free will.” We do not know why God allows evil, but that isn’t a good enough reason to suppose that he either doesn’t exist or is evil himself.

Strictly speaking, God does not create hell, but rather continuously creates those who are in hell. One could say, strictly speaking, God does not create the universe, but continuously creates every being within the universe.

There is no reason to suppose God couldn’t torture us in fire, or allow ourselves to shred our own skin (ala the vision of John Bosco) for a few thousand years and then allow us to lapse from existence. Is that enough punishment for you? Would about one billion years of agonizing torture? Would your thirst for justice be sated then? I digress, God would never do such an unjust and vicious thing. But, I do believe earthly and heavenly punishments are in store for those who work evil. I was reading 2nd Maccabees last night (I read many different kinds of Bibles, including Catholic ones). Listen to this:

About that time, as it happened, Antiochus had retreated in disorder from the region of Persia. [2] For he had entered the city called Persepolis, and attempted to rob the temples and control the city. Therefore the people rushed to the rescue with arms, and Antiochus and his men were defeated, with the result that Antiochus was put to flight by the inhabitants and beat a shameful retreat. [3] While he was in Ecbatana, news came to him of what had happened to Nicanor and the forces of Timothy. [4] Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight; so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, “When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews.” [5] But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him an incurable and unseen blow. As soon as he ceased speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels for which there was no relief and with sharp internal tortures – [6] and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. [7] Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to hasten the journey. **And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. **[8] Thus he who had just been thinking that he could command the waves of the sea, in his superhuman arrogance, and imagining that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. [9] And so the ungodly man’s body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of his stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. [10] Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought that he could touch the stars of heaven. [11] **Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain every moment. ** [12] And when he could not endure his own stench, he uttered these words: **“It is right to be subject to God, and no mortal should think that he is equal to God.” **[13]Then the abominable fellow made a vow to the Lord, who would no longer have mercy on him, stating[14] that the holy city, which he was hastening to level to the ground and to make a cemetery, he was now declaring to be free; [15] and the Jews, whom he had not considered worth burying but had planned to throw out with their children to the beasts, for the birds to pick, he would make, all of them, equal to citizens of Athens; [16] and the holy sanctuary, which he had formerly plundered, he would adorn with the finest offerings; and the holy vessels he would give back, all of them, many times over; and the expenses incurred for the sacrifices he would provide from his own revenues; [17] and in addition to all this he also would become a Jew and would visit every inhabited place to proclaim the power of God.
[18] But when his sufferings did not in any way abate, for the judgment of God had justly come upon him, he gave up all hope for himself and wrote to the Jews the following letter, in the form of a supplication.

God does not mess around, and will not hesitate to strike his enemies, and the enemies of all good people. Antiochus perpetrated many vicious and blasphemous crimes against God and his people, and God punished him. As you can see, that punishment produced repentance. However, it was too late for Antiochus, and God allowed him to die, but not before he repented and appointed his son as ruler.

Similarly, we are foolish if we think we can sin with impunity without punishment from God. We will get what we deserve, today or tomorrow. However, no one could possibly deserve endless, relentless torment.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Of course I do. Belief in the Creator implies that there is only one Ultimate Being.

Catholicism and monism are incompatible. You have to believe that there are distinct “beings” to be a Catholic. Monism implies pantheism or panentheism, both of which contradict Catholicism.

Apparently but our souls are not created independently of our bodies. One doesn’t appear after the other!

Right, so the Socratic teaching that souls have always existed is false, and so his argument that souls are immortal is also false, since it depends on them having always existed. Also, the idea that souls are created at the moment of conception is not Catholic dogma (a fetus may be “ensouled” later). There are legitimate disagreements among competent theologians. This does not justify abortion of course, and it is entirely possible that some future council or Pope will infallibly declare that souls are created at the moment of conception. This is problematic for homozygous twins, however, since they technically share a body at the moment of conception.

The soul is immortal because we are made in God’s image and likeness.

This is a theological opinion, and not a necessary implication or fact of being “made in the image of God.” As I have said before, “reason” could just as easily be the “image.” I believe it is.

Nothing can be owed to us if we don’t exist! But once we are created we have rights and our Creator has obligations towards us. No father can disown his children unless he is a devil. If we are annihilated everything is lost! Nothing can alter the fact that it is sheer and total destruction. Hell on the other hand is not a state of sheer misery, as I have pointed out. It must have its compensations; otherwise no one would choose it.

You believe God is obligated to keep us in existence indefinitely? Why? God does not disown us, we are the ones who disown him. It is your theological opinion that hell is not sheer misery, and it is the minority opinion among the architects and heroes of the Catholic faith. It is you and a handful of late 20th century Europeans vs literally every famous saint, doctor, pope, council, visionary, mystic, miracle-worker, and martyr.

If that were so God would be the Devil! Power alone doesn’t make a person good. In fact God’s power stems from His love which is more creative than anything else in heaven and earth. All that evil can do is to destroy.

God is perfectly simple, and his power are goodness are identical with his being. You yourself have said that “an evil god is a childish fable.” You are correct. God does not destroy, it is we who destroy ourselves by sin. God punishes, but it is usually for the purpose of education/retribution/restoration. He does not punish endlessly and mercilessly for no discernible purpose.

If a human father did that he would be condemned as a monster. Nothing could justify erasing a person like a totally valueless and insignificant error. The fault would be the parent’s, not the child’s. No finite offence can ever deserve infinite and final obliteration **as if the person should never have been born. **God does not make mistakes. He certainly isn’t inconsistent. He knows exactly what He is doing when He creates us and to think otherwise is an insult to the Source of all that is most precious and beautiful.

We both confront the same problem. What is God to do with those who stubbornly and permanently hate him? Prevent them from existing in the first place? Allow them to torment themselves endlessly? Or, allow them to lapse from existence? Is there another option?

I suppose option 1 is impossible, since it is clearly preferable, and God would have done this if he could.
I suppose option 2 is vicious, unjust, and cruel beyond imagining.
I suppose option 3 is what is left. Terrible, frightening, but what else is God supposed to do?

 

[tonyrey]

Catholicism and monism are incompatible. You have to believe that there are distinct “beings” to be a Catholic. Monism implies pantheism or panentheism, both of which contradict Catholicism.

Monism: "The doctrine that only one supreme being exists. - Oxford Dictionary
Dualism is the theory that mind and matter are both eternal, which is incompatible with the belief that God created everything.

Right, so the Socratic teaching that souls have always existed is false, and so his argument that souls are immortal is also false, since it depends on them having always existed.

Immortality doesn’t imply that souls have always existed. It means they cannot die.
Immortal = not mortal.

Also, the idea that souls are created at the moment of conception is not Catholic dogma (a fetus may be “ensouled” later). There are legitimate disagreements among competent theologians. This does not justify abortion of course, and it is entirely possible that some future council or Pope will infallibly declare that souls are created at the moment of conception. This is problematic for homozygous twins, however, since they technically share a body at the moment of conception.

“The spiritual and immortal soul is created** immediately **by God at the moment of individuation at conception.” - CCC 382

The soul is immortal because we are made in God’s image and likeness.

This is a theological opinion, and not a necessary implication or fact of being “made in the image of God.” As I have said before, “reason” could just as easily be the “image.” I believe it is.

According to that argument there is no afterlife!

Nothing can be owed to us if we don’t exist! But once we are created we have rights and our Creator has obligations towards us…

You believe God is obligated to keep us in existence indefinitely? Why? God does not disown us, we are the ones who disown him.

It is impossible to “disown” God because He created us and sustains us. We can reject Him but He never rejects us, regardless of what we do. He doesn’t descend to our level because He loves everything He has created.

It is your theological opinion that hell is not sheer misery, and it is the minority opinion among the architects and heroes of the Catholic faith. It is you and a handful of late 20th century Europeans vs literally every famous saint, doctor, pope, council, visionary, mystic, miracle-worker, and martyr.

I don’t claim to be infallible nor does any reasonable person. The Magisterium has never declared that Hell is constant suffering for the simple reason that no one deserves such a horrific fate. If we reject His love we torture ourselves by depriving ourselves of the Source of all goodness, beauty, freedom and joy but we do not inflict constant suffering on ourselves because we cannot be totally evil. There is some good even in the most diabolical person.

God is perfectly simple, and his power are goodness are identical with his being. You yourself have said that “an evil god is a childish fable.” You are correct. God does not destroy, it is we who destroy ourselves by sin. God punishes, but it is usually for the purpose of education/retribution/restoration. He does not punish endlessly and mercilessly for no discernible purpose.

It is impossible for us to destroy ourselves. We are not given the power over life or death. We can kill our body but our soul is a different matter altogether. God punishes no one. If we hate others we poison our personality but not to the point of destruction. God alone decides what happens to us in the next world. You admit He does not punish endlessly and mercilessly and capital punishment at the spiritual level would be an irrevocable decision. We cannot destroy ourselves because we do not have divine power. It would mean we can destroy persons he has created - which is absurd.

We both confront the same problem. What is God to do with those who stubbornly and permanently hate him? Prevent them from existing in the first place? Allow them to torment themselves endlessly? Or, allow them to lapse from existence? Is there another option?

I suppose option 1 is impossible, since it is clearly preferable, and God would have done this if he could.
I suppose option 2 is vicious, unjust, and cruel beyond imagining.
I suppose option 3 is what is left. Terrible, frightening, but what else is God supposed to do?

There is another more reasonable option. Hell exists but it is not so terrible as many people believe. There is some good in every person and that brings them consolation. Even in Hell suffering purifies and brings the damned closer to God. Jesus had to simplify in order to warn everyone of the dangers of becoming callous and ruthless but in reality life after death is far more complex than going to Heaven or Hell. Since there are degrees of good and evil there must be degrees of suffering. Even in Hell some people are closer to God than others!

Divine justice is more perfect than we can imagine because no one deserves to die forever but at the same time no one deserves to live forever. The truth is usually found between extremes. God’s love is His paramount attribute. He gives us the gift of eternal life in heaven and the gift of freedom to reject His love forever but He doesn’t give us the “gift” of eternal death because it would be a curse. No one except a lunatic wants to cease to exist in any shape or form without any possibility of ever coming back to life - and God respects that fact. He is not a killer but a Father - for ever and ever and ever…

 

[Rohzek]

Monism: "The doctrine that only one supreme being exists. - Oxford Dictionary
Dualism is the theory that mind and matter are both eternal, which is incompatible with the belief that God created everything.

I think what PumpkinCookie is getting at is that monism is incompatible with Catholicism because it implicitly accepts that the universe itself is God. In addition, the dualism you are talking about is different from the dualism which PumpkinCookie is talking about. PumpkinCookie is essentially, at least how I interpret him/her, understanding dualism from the Cartesian metaphysical view. In other words, he is approaching dualism using the common understanding in the field of Philosophy of Mind. This metaphysical definition of dualism does not imply that material matter or the soul have always existed. A good example of this is none other than René Descartes, who was a devote Catholic and who believed that material matter and the souls were created by God.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Monism: "The doctrine that only one supreme being exists. - Oxford Dictionary
Dualism is the theory that mind and matter are both eternal, which is incompatible with the belief that God created everything.

Monism can also mean “the belief that there is only one being.” This is what I meant, and what is incompatible with Catholicism. I do not support dualism. My metaphysical outlook is very similar to traditional Catholic beliefs.

Immortality doesn’t imply that souls have always existed. It means they cannot die.
Immortal = not mortal.

Right, so Socrates’ argument in Symposium and Phaedrus is invalid, since souls have not always existed. Socrates argues, in a nutshell, that we are immortal in spirit precisely because our spirits are not created and thus cannot be destroyed. However, since we are created, we can be destroyed. This is always true. Name one thing that can be created but not destroyed. Don’t say “human souls” or I’ll have to laugh!

“The spiritual and immortal soul is created** immediately **by God at the moment of individuation at conception.” - CCC 382

Here is a short informative article. ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=305

According to that argument there is no afterlife!

I don’t think so, it just means that there isn’t necessarily an afterlife. The written Torah does not explicitly say so, and the authors of some of the books seem to think there is no afterlife, while others do. I personally believe there is. This has always been the majority opinion of the Rabbis.

It is impossible to “disown” God because He created us and sustains us. We can reject Him but He never rejects us, regardless of what we do. He doesn’t descend to our level because He loves everything He has created.

Not so! There are many examples of people turning their backs on God, refusing to obey, or engaging in great evil. God punishes these people by destroying them. Consider Lot’s wife! She refused to obey, and was destroyed directly by the hand of God.

I don’t claim to be infallible…[snip]…There is some good even in the most diabolical person.

I don’t think you have ever claimed to be infallible, but you are claiming to be potentially correct, even though your opinion is at odds with…pretty much every important theologian in Catholic history. I do not think your opinion is at odds with common sense however. We all recognize that “no one deserves such a horrific fate.” Granted, I also agree that it seems unlikely anyone has ever been “totally evil.” However, maybe we don’t need to be “totally evil” to deserve annihilation. Maybe simply refusing to listen to God’s explicit instructions is enough, like Lot’s wife…

It is impossible for us to destroy ourselves. We are not given the power over life or death. We can kill our body but our soul is a different matter altogether. God punishes no one. If we hate others we poison our personality but not to the point of destruction. God alone decides what happens to us in the next world. You admit He does not punish endlessly and mercilessly and capital punishment at the spiritual level would be an irrevocable decision. We cannot destroy ourselves because we do not have divine power. It would mean we can destroy persons he has created - which is absurd.

Then what is Jesus talking about, this one we should fear, who can “destroy both body and soul in gehenna?” Does satan have “divine power?” Or, is Jesus just exaggerating again? Or, is God doing the destroying?

Oh, but we can destroy ourselves. Mortal sin causes “spiritual death” right? Apparently, not so! Our souls live forever no matter what we do, according to you. And, we will probably enjoy our time in hell at least somewhat. So, do whatever you want, no big deal.

There is another more reasonable option. Hell exists but it is not so terrible as many people believe. There is some good in every person and that brings them consolation. Even in Hell suffering purifies and brings the damned closer to God. Jesus had to simplify in order to warn everyone of the dangers of becoming callous and ruthless but in reality life after death is far more complex than going to Heaven or Hell. Since there are degrees of good and evil there must be degrees of suffering. Even in Hell some people are closer to God than others!

Again, this is a tiny minority opinion. If this were true, then why would the testimonies of so many important Catholics contradict this?

Divine justice is more perfect than we can imagine because no one deserves to die forever but at the same time no one deserves to live forever. The truth is usually found between extremes. God’s love is His paramount attribute. He gives us the gift of eternal life in heaven and the gift of freedom to reject His love forever but He doesn’t give us the “gift” of eternal death because it would be a curse. No one except a lunatic wants to cease to exist in any shape or form without any possibility of ever coming back to life - and God respects that fact. He is not a killer but a Father - for ever and ever and ever…

Not so! Those who are tormented beg for death. Many people commit suicide each day, sadly. Are they all lunatics? It may comfort you to think so, but it seems unlikely. How many more would yearn for death in an endless hell? If so many millions can’t handle life, what makes you think they would be able to cope with endless torment?

 

[jmcrae]

Not so! Those who are tormented beg for death. Many people commit suicide each day, sadly. Are they all lunatics? It may comfort you to think so, but it seems unlikely. How many more would yearn for death in an endless hell? If so many millions can’t handle life, what makes you think they would be able to cope with endless torment?

They might not be lunatics, but they also might not be looking for annihilation - they might be thinking that they’ll be going to Heaven, or to a pain free existence of peace and quiet. Even if at an intellectual level they know they’re going to Hell, they might be thinking that Hell is easier to endure than whatever it is they’re trying to escape from.

 

[jmcrae]

If so many millions can’t handle life, what makes you think they would be able to cope with endless torment?

Perhaps that’s why we’re warned about it while there’s still time to seek out the Gospel and partake of the Sacraments.

 

[arte]

God still loves those who are in Hell and that must be a source of consolation. They are to be pitied not hated and certainly not annihilated: no human crime could ever deserve such a diabolical punishment. Life is infinitely precious in spite of all its drawbacks and whatever our destiny it never under any circumstances ceases to be God’s gift to us. Destruction was a neat and tidy solution for Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal dictators but our Father could not descend to such a level for one very simple reason: He is Love - and positive in every aspect unlike the Evil One…

Thanks be to God.

It is far worse to have someone suffer for an eternity than it is to obliterate them completely. If God still loves those in hell, why doesn’t He offer them some means of escape like an invitation to repent of their sins? Our Father descends to a much lower level then Hitler, Stalin and any other genocidal dictator by creating and awarding eternal punishment. Therefore, He cannot be love nor positive in every aspect. If there is a hell, the overwhelming vast majority of its inhabitants will be people (including children?) who were nothing like Hitler and Stalin etc. There can be no justification for punishing anyone for an eternity especially people (including children?) who were nothing like Hitler and Stalin etc.

 

[Abba]

It is far worse to have someone suffer for an eternity than it is to obliterate them completely. If God still loves those in hell, why doesn’t He offer them some means of escape like an invitation to repent of their sins? Our Father descends to a much lower level then Hitler, Stalin and any other genocidal dictator by creating and awarding eternal punishment. Therefore, He cannot be love nor positive in every aspect. If there is a hell, the overwhelming vast majority of its inhabitants will be people (including children?) who were nothing like Hitler and Stalin etc. There can be no justification for punishing anyone for an eternity especially people (including children?) who were nothing like Hitler and Stalin etc.

I will try to respond.

When we sin, we really sin against God who is eternal and so our offense is eternal to Him. This is the reason, God became man and suffered and died in atonement for our sins. Our Lord Jesus is divine and as such His sacrifice is divine and eternal. He died for love of us, to make it possible for us to be forgiven for our sins through His eternal divine sacrifice. The offense was against a divine being, how could roasting a cow do? Animal sacrifice were insufficient for offending God.

God has done so much for us, so that we may be saved from eternal damnation to the point of sacrificing His only begotten son.

Because God sacrificed Himself (if you will) via that eternal sacrifice we can be all forgiven eternally.

So, get this, the offense - the sin/s are committed against God Himself who is an eternal divine being.

David said that :

3For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. 4Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. Psalm 51:4

It is against God that we sin.

Yes, God is Love and is merciful but He is also just. The account has to be paid. But, He does a lot for us to lead us in the right direction - we all for example have a guardian angel etc… we can all repent via an inspiriation of the Holy Spirit etc… He left us the Church and the Sacraments etc…

We tend to judge others by who we ourselves are and what we would do or not do. A person who goes to hell knows why they are there - the rich man did not complain nor questioned why he was there neither did he file the complaint of the title of this thread. Instead he said to warn others…so they will not end up in hell.

Take advantage of God’s mercy which is there to lead you to eternal salvation. After you die - you will be judged by The Just Judge.

Our fallen nature does not really allow us to understand but yes God is LOVE and He is JUST.

Peace

 

[Michael19682]

@anyone who wants to reply (aside from your own nested discussions here),

I’m not one to argue for truth by reason of ethical or moral expediency, but if we are annihilated at death with “no existence” for what we would call unrepentant sinners then what is the difference between that and simple deep sleep? We can all accept deep sleep (though for some there is anxiety involved), but falling deeply asleep doesn’t erase the guilt of sin. why should death erase it?

(if you already replied on this, please redirect)

 

[paziego]

I will try to respond.

When we sin, we really sin against God who is eternal and so our offense is eternal to Him. This is the reason, God became man and suffered and died in atonement for our sins. Our Lord Jesus is divine and as such His sacrifice is divine and eternal. He died for love of us, to make it possible for us to be forgiven for our sins through His eternal divine sacrifice. The offense was against a divine being, how could roasting a cow do? Animal sacrifice were insufficient for offending God.

And why must our offence be eternal? What are we, and our actions, compared to God?

I am a temporal being. But if a wasp stings me, I am not in pain for the rest of my temporal life. Nor will I dwell on the wasp’s "guilt "for as long as I live. I do this because I have a sense of perspective and proportionality. And if I have a sense of these things, then God, who gave it to me, also has it. He does not dwell eternally on what is not eternal.

 

[tonyrey]

God still loves those who are in Hell and that must be a source of consolation. They are to be pitied not hated and certainly not annihilated: no human crime could ever deserve such a diabolical punishment. Life is infinitely precious in spite of all its drawbacks and whatever our destiny it never under any circumstances ceases to be God’s gift to us. Destruction was a neat and tidy solution for Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal dictators but our Father could not descend to such a level for one very simple reason: He is Love - and positive in every aspect unlike the Evil One…

They have a constant invitation to repent of their sins but they prefer to be absolutely free of all obligations and live exactly as they like without any restrictions. You underestimate the temptations of pride and power.

Our Father descends to a much lower level then Hitler, Stalin and any other genocidal dictator by creating and awarding eternal punishment.

In that case why do you call yourself a Catholic? Insulting God is not usually a sign of love and devotion…

Therefore, He cannot be love nor positive in every aspect. If there is a hell, the overwhelming vast majority of its inhabitants will be people (including children?) who were nothing like Hitler and Stalin etc. There can be no justification for punishing anyone for an eternity especially people (including children?) who were nothing like Hitler and Stalin etc.

What leads you to believe children are in hell. You seem to have a warped view of God…

 

[tonyrey]

And why must our offence be eternal? What are we, and our actions, compared to God?

I am a temporal being. But if a wasp stings me, I am not in pain for the rest of my temporal life. Nor will I dwell on the wasp’s "guilt "for as long as I live. I do this because I have a sense of perspective and proportionality. And if I have a sense of these things, then God, who gave it to me, also has it. He does not dwell eternally on what is not eternal.

Our offences are not eternal but we are - and we are capable of choosing to live for ourselves as long as we like. Any objection?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I will try to respond.

When we sin, we really sin against God who is eternal and so our offense is eternal to Him. This is the reason, God became man and suffered and died in atonement for our sins. Our Lord Jesus is divine and as such His sacrifice is divine and eternal. He died for love of us, to make it possible for us to be forgiven for our sins through His eternal divine sacrifice. The offense was against a divine being, how could roasting a cow do? Animal sacrifice were insufficient for offending God.

God has done so much for us, so that we may be saved from eternal damnation to the point of sacrificing His only begotten son.

Because God sacrificed Himself (if you will) via that eternal sacrifice we can be all forgiven eternally.

So, get this, the offense - the sin/s are committed against God Himself who is an eternal divine being.

David said that :

3For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. 4Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. Psalm 51:4

It is against God that we sin.

Yes, God is Love and is merciful but He is also just. The account has to be paid. But, He does a lot for us to lead us in the right direction - we all for example have a guardian angel etc… we can all repent via an inspiriation of the Holy Spirit etc… He left us the Church and the Sacraments etc…

We tend to judge others by who we ourselves are and what we would do or not do. A person who goes to hell knows why they are there - the rich man did not complain nor questioned why he was there neither did he file the complaint of the title of this thread. Instead he said to warn others…so they will not end up in hell.

Take advantage of God’s mercy which is there to lead you to eternal salvation. After you die - you will be judged by The Just Judge.

Our fallen nature does not really allow us to understand but yes God is LOVE and He is JUST.

Peace

OK sounds good. If we repent, our repentance is eternal, and so we can be purified and live in the World to Come.

If we refuse to repent, our sin is eternal, and God destroys us, eternally. This is annihilation.

Hell, however, is endless punishment. It is not a final, eternal punishment, but an ongoing endless prolongation of the unrepentant sinner’s rebellion. God supports and sustains the rebellion against himself forever in this case. He does support and sustain this rebellion while we are alive, however one of the main themes of the Torah is that God’s tolerance for sinners will someday run out, and his destruction will be swift, terrible, and final. No one can oppose God forever, for he is the king of the universe. God is not an endless vicious torturer, but a just judge, executing his final sentence upon those who hate him and harm his children and creation. May none of us come before God without repentant hearts!

The Torah is very clear: sin leads to death. By analogy, we can understand that absolute persistence in sin and refusal to repent leads to permanent, eternal death.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

@anyone who wants to reply (aside from your own nested discussions here),

I’m not one to argue for truth by reason of ethical or moral expediency, but if we are annihilated at death with “no existence” for what we would call unrepentant sinners then what is the difference between that and simple deep sleep? We can all accept deep sleep (though for some there is anxiety involved), but falling deeply asleep doesn’t erase the guilt of sin. why should death erase it?

(if you already replied on this, please redirect)

Behind your question, I think (I don’t mean to put words in your mouth) is this thought:

“Annihilation isn’t harsh enough.”

Right? What is so bad about being utterly wiped out of existence by God? Here are two thoughts:

1. God could also punish us physically and spiritually for a time while we are alive and after death.
2. Annihilation may be the single most terrifying and crushing experience one could ever undergo, the experience of which may in fact be its own cause. We may realize our hatred of God, our unwillingness to repent, and our loss of all that is good, and the grief may be so enormous that it shatters our spirit into nothingness. This is a fearsome punishment to contemplate.

Final death would erase sin in two ways: it would permanently erase the sinner, it would be retributive and proportional (since God is ultimately who we are offending, and it is his sole gift of life we we owe to him), and God will restore those harmed by the sinner out of his abundant love and goodness.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

In that case why do you call yourself a Catholic? Insulting God is not usually a sign of love and devotion…

To be fair, I’m sure this poster means no insult to God as he understands God. He is merely saying that the “god” who presides over eternal hell is “worse than Hitler or Stalin.” You yourself have stated flatly that my understanding of God is indistinct from your understanding of Satan. I know you do not mean to blaspheme, you are just trying to show me that you think my understanding of God is seriously warped. We all need a LOT of tolerance to discuss this issue.

Actually, good on us, you know? 700 years ago I would have already been executed for heresy or apostasy or some other crime. Most likely all of us would have been imprisoned for our wayward theological opinions. Fortunately we have the freedom to discuss ideas without fear of torture, imprisonment, or execution. Thank God! Unfortunately, this freedom comes with the responsibility of tolerance for other’s extremely offensive (to us) opinions.

What leads you to believe children are in hell. You seem to have a warped view of God…

Second Council of Lyons, infallible teaching:

The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments.

Council of Florence, infallible teaching:

But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. (Florence, Sixth Session, 6 July 1439).

If 1) Every embryo from the moment of conception has an eternal soul and 2) The Roman Catholic Church’s infallible teachings on this subject are true, then:

Hell is full to over-brimming with infants, children, miscarriages, aborted babies, etc. In fact, they are probably the majority population there.

This is sick, sick, sick, and incredibly warped. And yet, it is the inevitable and simple result of Catholic belief. It requires extensive mental gymnastics to get around this conclusion and retain a Catholic faith.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Our offences are not eternal but we are - and we are capable of choosing to live for ourselves as long as we like. Any objection?

Not so! Once in hell, we no longer have any choice but to “live for ourselves,” and God forces us to exist endlessly, with no hope. Your sanitized version of hell may help you sleep at night and retain the belief that God is a good, loving, and just Father, but it is at odds with Catholic tradition. Maybe you are OK with throwing a huge part of the tradition out of the window, I certainly am! Except, I couldn’t hold these two propositions:

1. The RCC is infallibly correct about this kind of thing, and never contradicts itself.
2. The RCC is wrong about one such instance of this kind of thing, in contradiction to itself.

I just couldn’t do it. I couldn’t hold on to both.