Even if one accepts the idea of Peter being the chief steward, the prodigal son does not come back to the steward, but to the Father.
Jon
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Jon
S
steve_b
Guest
It’s not an either/or. We know what Jesus taught about unity in what He established.
Of course we know what He taught about unity. Unity is found in the Triune God, and to the extent that the Bishop of Rome is key and central to the encouraging and facilitating unity, that is a good thing. But the parable is clear about to whom the son returns: he returns to the Father. That is the message of the parable.
Jon
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steve_b
Guest
And while that son remained away and would not return, the father still loved that son, but that son was DEAD, he was LOST to the father.
N
Novocastrian
Guest
And in other parables, the Good Shepherd goes out to find the one lost sheep. The sheep isn’t described as dead, and it isn’t permanently lost to the flock; it is a temporary separation which the Shepherd rectifies.
It’s a little simplistic to try to base the Church’s baptismal ecclesiology on one interpretation of a single parable.
S
steve_b
Guest
And as the story goes, while the search is on, that sheep isn’t necessarily found. AND that sheep might in the meantime get picked off by a wolf
N:
The story works just fine. Here’s another application. Consider that a person is baptized into a family, but that person might choose to have nothing to do with the family. And when the time for the inheritance comes around, that person has nothing coming to them.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
Thanks be to God we live in an era with new approaches…and we look to all that already unites us. Words like schismatic and heretic are no longer used by the Holy See regarding the Churches of the East not in Full Communion with Rome nor for the Churches and Ecclesial Communities in the West
As Pope St. John Paul II wrote in Ut Unum Sint:
*50. In this regard, it must first be acknowledged, with particular gratitude to Divine Providence, that our bonds with the Churches of the East, weakened in the course of the centuries, were strengthened through the Second Vatican Council. The observers from these Churches present at the Council, together with representatives of the Churches and Ecclesial Communities of the West, stated publicly, at that very solemn moment for the Catholic Church, their common willingness to seek the re-establishment of communion
The Council, for its part, considered the Churches of the East with objectivity and deep affection, stressing their ecclesial nature and the real bonds of communion linking them with the Catholic Church. The Decree on Ecumenism points out: “Through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature”. It adds, as a consequence, that “although these Churches are separated from us, they possess true sacraments, above all — by apostolic succession — the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in a very close relationship”
Speaking of the Churches of the East, the Council acknowledged their great liturgical and spiritual tradition, the specific nature of their historical development, the disciplines coming from the earliest times and approved by the Holy Fathers and Ecumenical Councils, and their own particular way of expressing their teaching. The Council made this acknowledgement in the conviction that legitimate diversity is in no way opposed to the Church’s unity, but rather enhances her splendour and contributes greatly to the fulfilment of her mission
The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council wished to base dialogue on the communion which already exists, and it draws attention to the noble reality of the Churches of the East: “Therefore, this Sacred Synod urges all, but especially those who plan to devote themselves to the work of restoring the full communion that is desired between the Eastern Churches and the Catholic Church, to give due consideration to these special aspects of the origin and growth of the Churches of the East, and to the character of the relations which obtained between them and the Roman See before the separation, and to form for themselves a correct evaluation of these facts”.
/…/
- With regard to the Church of Rome and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the process which we have just mentioned began thanks to the mutual openness demonstrated by Popes John XXIII and Paul VI on the one hand, and by the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I and his successors on the other. The resulting change found its historical expression in the ecclesial act whereby “there was removed from memory and from the midst of the Church” the remembrance of the excommunications which nine hundred years before, in 1054, had become the symbol of the schism between Rome and Constantinople. That ecclesial event, so filled with ecumenical commitment, took place during the last days of the Council, on 7 December 1965. The Council thus ended with a solemn act which was at once a healing of historical memories, a mutual forgiveness, and a firm commitment to strive for communion
This demonstrates the terminology that a Catholic is to use today, after the example of the Council and the post-conciliar popes and the ecclesiology that is rooted in koinonia
It is crucial honesty be served in acknowledging that the Petrine ministry has been a source of suffering; both Blessed Paul VI and Saint John Paul II have memorably recalled this, acknowledged this and asked forgiveness – every Catholic should echo this appeal for forgiveness
From Ut Unum Sint, paragraph 88
[A]s I acknowledged on the important occasion of a visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, the Catholic Church’s conviction that in the ministry of the Bishop of Rome she has preserved, in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and the faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity, constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections. To the extent that we are responsible for these, I join my Predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness
As Pope Benedict XVI wrote in a letter to the world’s Catholic bishops in July 2007, failures must be confessed with regard to leaders of the Roman Church in terms of the divisions which have resulted across the centuries
Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew
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steve_b
Guest
Re: latest version of the CCC
Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
Specifically:
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11
Q’s
What about
A knowledgeable Catholic leaves the Catholic Church and joins one of those mentioned. None of those terms in 2089 fits?
One born into one of those mentioned now sees the truth of the Catholic Church but won’t enter. None of those terms in 2089 fits?
M
Michael19682
Guest
I’m really curious, JonNC, why do you say the Father gives his son a ring – signifying servitude?-- when his son never actually says what he intended to say, “Treat me as you would one of your hired workers?”
M
Michael19682
Guest
As a person with your beliefs and according to your beliefs, what would you say is the meaning/significance/etc., of the Father’s gift of the ring to his once dead son upon his arrival home after a life of dissipation?
B
Bookcat
Guest
But those who are living in grace - who are alive in Christ though only imperfectly in communion with the Church are NOT DEAD. Like that Son.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
- Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
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steve_b
Guest
If they have no mortal sin, then sanctifying grace is not dead in them
M
Michael19682
Guest
“certain”. What does it mean?
Combined with “although imperfect”, the usage conveys an issuance of doubt.
Taken in the common usage and with the appositive glossed over, it conveys a kind of communion that is not distinguishable from the ordinary.
Either way, it seems to suggest or have implication that whatever you believe is what you are?
Is the meaning so extensive that anyone anywhere can consecrate the host if he so believes he can?
Give absolution to himself after sin?
Baptize himself?
Enjoin marriage upon whomever?
Very confused
S
steve_b
Guest
IOW they who are fully incorporated into the Church
*]are baptized
*]profess the creed without putting their own interpretation into the words
*]have 7 valid sacraments
*]are completely united to the pope and those united to him
171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?
846-848
This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.
IOW 2 types of people are identified here.
*]One who knows the Catholic Church is founded by Christ and therefore, necessary for salvation and either won’t enter her, or remain in her
*]One who innocently doesn’t know any of that.
Our Job is to proclaim truth and to educate,
therefore, if ignorance is truly innocent, then that is a person’s escape hatch. Providing their ignorance is truly innocent
However,
ONCE a person knows, (it doesn’t say disagrees) then they are no longer ignorant, and certainly not innocently so.
Re: ignorance
Invincible ignorance #14
1791 ignorance isn’t always innocent
B
Bookcat
Guest
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
168. Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity *are in a certain, although imperfect, communion *with the Catholic Church.
That is a good summary.
(as to where there is sin or not in a person not being in full communion with the Church or where there is ignorance…or what is meant by such …what is meant by knowledge (a person who just hears “hey the Catholic Church is his Church that he founded” does not necessarily know such…etc))…all that is not really part of the question of this thread …it TIS OFF TOPIC).
B
Bookcat
Guest
They are in a real communion with the Catholic Church - but that communion is imperfect. Not full …but it exists (to varying degrees).
A Baptized person who later “becomes a Catholic” - what happens?
He is “received into full communion with the Catholic Church”.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
Yes.We proclaim the truth that Pope Saint John Paul II taught in Ut Unum Sint:
Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ
We proclaim the truth Pope Saint John XXIII taught: "What unites us is much greater than what divides us."
We proclaim the truth that Pope Saint John Paul II taught about how we are to relate to non-Catholics in seeing God at work in and through them, even as they give their lives for Christ, by the operation within them of the Holy Spirit. These insights have already gifted the Catholic theological community with new insights in the area of ecclesiology:
The relationships which the members of the Catholic Church have established with other Christians since the Council have enabled us to discover what God is bringing about in the members of other Churches and Ecclesial Communities. This direct contact, at a variety of levels, with pastors and with the members of these Communities has made us aware of the witness which other Christians bear to God and to Christ. A vast new field has thus opened up for the whole ecumenical experience, which at the same time is the great challenge of our time. Is not the twentieth century a time of great witness, which extends “even to the shedding of blood”? And does not this witness also involve the various Churches and Ecclesial Communities which take their name from Christ, Crucified and Risen?
Those are important questions for us who are Catholic to ask ourselves and to carefully consider: What is God bringing about in the members of the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities? And what do they have to say to us?
We boldly proclaim what Pope Francis said at the tomb of Saint Paul on his visit to the Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls this past January:
"As the Bishop of Rome and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church, I want to ask forgiveness and mercy for any behaviour on the part of Catholics towards Christians of other Churches that did not reflect the values of the Gospel."
These last words especially need to be heard and loudly proclaimed.
These are the truths we need to echo as we who are Catholic prepare to be led by the Successor of Saint Peter in the year long commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, which we will observe together with our Lutheran brothers and sisters.
I think it is very important that these voices be heard very clearly, by Catholics and non-Catholics, as we enter a new phase in the ecumenical movement, thanks to the leadership of Pope Francis, who builds upon the thoughts of and the foundations laid by Pope Saint John XXIII, Blessed Pope Paul VI, Pope Saint John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI…and, to be sure, of that dicastery of the Holy See which has jurisdiction over these matters, The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, under the presidency of the Cardinal Prefect.
I
Indyann
Guest
“we all belong to Christ”.
If only all Catholics and Protestants, alike would remember this.
If only all Catholics and Protestants, alike would remember this.
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