Is everyone who is baptized technically catholic?

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Bookcat said:
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

168. Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity *are in a certain, although imperfect, communion *with the Catholic Church.
That is a good summary.
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Strictly speaking, a Catholic is a person who has been baptized in the Catholic Church or a person who has been received into the Church after a valid non-Catholic baptism.

I think I addressed that #[36 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13924515&postcount=36)

You quoted 168,
I quoted 171

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?

846-848

This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

IOW 2 types of people are identified here.

    • One who knows the Catholic Church is founded by Christ and therefore, necessary for salvation and either won’t enter her, or remain in her
    • One who innocently doesn’t know any of that.
    These selections 168. and 171, are within the same thought process in the compendium.
    B:
    (as to where there is sin or not in a person not being in full communion with the Church or where there is ignorance…or what is meant by such …what is meant by knowledge (a person who just hears “hey the Catholic Church is his Church that he founded” does not necessarily know such…etc))…all that is not really part of the question of this thread …it TIS OFF TOPIC).
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    I addressed that as well, using the CCC #[**36 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13924515&postcount=36)

    If someone is NOT Catholic, i.e. outside the Church

    then they don’t meet all these requirements which I also underlined individually in #[**36 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13924515&postcount=36)

    Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion

    IOW they who are fully incorporated into the Church
      • are baptized
      • profess the creed without putting their own interpretation into the words
      • have 7 valid sacraments
      • are completely united to the pope and those united to him
      From that, the logical question is also, who is NOT ( fully incorporated) as in who is “outside”?

      asked in other specific ways,
      • if Protestants were “Catholic” already by their baptism, why do they still need to be received into the Catholic Church?
      • If Protestants were already “Catholic” by virtue of baptism, why can’t they just walk off the street and receive the sacraments of the Catholic Church?
      there should be no caveats attached to any of that if they are already in the Church.
 
steve_b said:
Strictly speaking, a Catholic is a person who has been baptized in the Catholic Church or a person who has been received into the Church after a valid non-Catholic baptism.
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Where did I say otherwise? That is what I said.

That is what the quote from the Compendium that I quoted was getting at in essence.

That is what “*Fully *incorporated into the Catholic Church” refers to.
 
steve_b said:
Okay 🙂
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That is what - “Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church” means.

(I added that phrase after you just responded.

Those who are baptized but not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church are not yet “in full communion” …they are rather in a certain but imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
We proclaim the truth Pope Saint John XXIII taught: **“What unites us is much greater than what divides us.”

**
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**

There he refers to the Orthodox

**
D:
We boldly proclaim what Pope Francis said at the tomb of Saint Paul on his visit to the Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls this past January:
"As the Bishop of Rome and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church, I want to ask forgiveness and mercy for any behaviour on the part of Catholics towards Christians of other Churches that did not reflect the values of the Gospel."
These last words especially need to be heard and loudly proclaimed.
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Popes have always been willing to ask for forgiveness. It’s the reciprocal that is so often missing

From Orthodox Theologian David Bentley Hart “the myth of schism”

makes interesting points that I used in my post # 917, using actual events

“As regards my own communion, I must reluctantly report that there are some Eastern Christians who have become incapable of defining what it is to be Orthodox except in contradistinction to Roman Catholicism; … For such as these,there can never be any limit set to the number of grievances that need to be cited against Rome, nor any act of contrition on the part of Rome sufficient for absolution. There was something inherently strange in the spectacle of John Paul asking pardon for the 1204 sack of Constantinople and its sequel; but there is something inherently unseemly in the refusal of certain Eastern polemicists to allow the episode to sink back to the level of utter irrelevancy to which it belongs. (In any event, I eagerly await the day when the Patriarch of Constantinople, in a gesture of unqualified Christian contrition, makes public penance for the brutal mass slaughter of the metic Latin Christians of Byzantium - men, women and children - at the rise of Andronicus I Comnenus in 1182, and the sale of thousands of them into slavery to the Turks. Frankly, when all is said and done, the sack of 1204 was a rather mild recompense for that particular abomination, I would think).”

For full context clarion-journal.com/clari…tley-hart.html
 
Baptism opens up the possibility of salvation. Without being baptized, our intelligence of God is dim. Salvation “outside” the church, is a hot topic. Rather, universal damnation is not possible. A thought to consider.
 
Bookcat said:
Where did I say otherwise? That is what I said.

That is what the quote from the Compendium that I quoted was getting at in essence.

That is what “*Fully *incorporated into the Catholic Church” refers to.
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And If one is baptized outside the Catholic Church, they aren’t “Catholic” nor “in” the Catholic Church until they become fully incorporated into the Catholic Church.
 
steve_b said:
And If one is baptized outside the Catholic Church, they aren’t “Catholic” nor “in” the Catholic Church until they become fully incorporated into the Catholic Church.
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They are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

What name are they known by?:

A Baptist Christian
A Lutheran Christian
An Anglican Christian
An Evangelical Christian

etc

If they enter into full communion with the Catholic Church - then they are Catholic Christians.
 
Bookcat said:
They are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
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A fancy way of saying, they are NOT Catholic, nor are they “IN” the Catholic Church
B:
What name are they known by?:

A Baptist Christian
A Lutheran Christian
An Anglican Christian
An Evangelical Christian

etc
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“Christian” true.

Although as John Henry Newman said, (paraphrased) each of THEM can’t trace their lineage before their 16th century split from the Catholic Church.
B:
If they enter into full communion with the Catholic Church - then they are Catholic Christians.
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And that’s what I said.
 
Bookcat said:
It is a precise way to say what it said:

They are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

As to the question of the thread - here was my answers up above:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13912829&postcount=12

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13913570&postcount=18
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Re: Those baptized outside the Catholic Church

Are they Catholic? No
Are they in the Catholic Church? No

They aren’t either, till they are fully incorporated into the Catholic Church.
 
Bookcat said:
Are they in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church? YES.
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Isn’t the question of the thread, who is technically Catholic?

Those baptized outside the Church aren’t Catholic nor are they “in” the Catholic Church.
 
steve_b said:
Isn’t the question of the thread, who is technically Catholic?

Those baptized outside the Church aren’t Catholic nor are they “in” the Catholic Church.
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And I said back in post 12 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13912829&postcount=12

The question of the thread is beyond who is “a Catholic” but is about those who are baptized and their relation to the Church…such is at least implied…

Those who are baptized with a valid baptism ie Protestants - are yes in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church (there is but one Baptism). That is very important to note - so much so that the Church notes it as part of the response to a question of “who belongs to the Catholic Church”.
 
Bookcat said:
And I said back in post 12 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13912829&postcount=12

The question of the thread is beyond who is “a Catholic” but is about those who are baptized and their relation to the Church…such is at least implied…

Those who are baptized with a valid baptism ie Protestants - are yes in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church (there is but one Baptism). That is very important to note - so much so that the Church notes it as part of the response to a question of “who belongs to the Catholic Church”.
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here is the opening post of this thread #1

I quote from that post (all emphasis mine)

"And from the catholic churches perspective (the Pope and Magisterium), * these people are simply bad catholics**rather than being part of another “separate” church*?

If so, then “there is no salvation outside the church” doesn’t apply to protestants as they are not “outside” the church as such but are simply bad catholics (though they will have a hard time gaining salvation seeing how they are bad catholics …the same way any bad catholic would have difficulty gaining salvation)."

Do you see the misunderstandings/error here? Do you see WHY I took the approach I did in my 15 posts so far?
 
Bookcat said:
They are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

What name are they known by?:

A Baptist Christian
A Lutheran Christian
An Anglican Christian
An Evangelical Christian

etc
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I reject, uncategorically, the very notion of a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Baptist, an Orthodox, etc. Baptism. These are adjectives that are not applied to Baptism in scripture. There is one baptism.
"There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift." Ephesians 4

If we apply these adjectives - Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, etc., we claim to ourselves in a triumphalist manner Baptism, which is in the name of the Triune God, as our own device, our own application, our own ordinance. But it is not. It is a sacrament, a means by which forgiveness of sins is bestowed, not based on the name on the sign in front of the church building that houses the baptismal font, but based solely on the grace of God.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I reject, uncategorically, the very notion of a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Baptist, an Orthodox, etc. Baptism. These are adjectives that are not applied to Baptism in scripture. There is one baptism.
"There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift." Ephesians 4

If we apply these adjectives - Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, etc., we claim to ourselves in a triumphalist manner Baptism, which is in the name of the Triune God, as our own device, our own application, our own ordinance. But it is not. It is a sacrament, a means by which forgiveness of sins is bestowed, not based on the name on the sign in front of the church building that houses the baptismal font, but based solely on the grace of God.

Jon
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According to Catholic doctrine, the elements of sanctification found outside the Catholic Church are gifts properly belonging to the Catholic Church, derive their efficacy from the fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church, and therefore impel toward Catholic unity.
 
JonNC said:
I reject, uncategorically, the very notion of a Catholic, a Lutheran, a Baptist, an Orthodox, etc. Baptism.
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I said earlier - there is only one baptism.

In that post you are responding to I said:
**
What name are they known by?:**

A Baptist Christian
A Lutheran Christian
An Anglican Christian
An Evangelical Christian

Such was referring to the persons…

You misread the post…🙂
 
Bookcat said:
I said earlier - there is only one baptism.

In that post you are responding to I said:
**
What name are they known by?:**

A Baptist Christian
A Lutheran Christian
An Anglican Christian
An Evangelical Christian

Such was referring to the persons…

You misread the post…🙂
Click to expand...
I should have been more clear. I was actually supporting your position. I think we agree.

BTW, I am always impressed with your posts. 👍

Jon
 
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