Yes. Where some here disagree with me is my stance that being Catholic is not only and exclusively being in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Jon
- Status
Jon
It is the sign of the authority of the Father, and the return of the prodical to sonship, no thought here of being a servant. The signet ring, the robe, emblematic of the covering of sins with his father’s love, and sandals for his feet, something a servant never had.
Jon
K
kdbueno
Guest
To tell the truth, people do understand the difference of not being baptised to being baptised. It’s darkness is so rampant, that you cannot understand its difference with the presence of the radiant light.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
Where it sounds like a trifling disagreement viz: being in communion with the Bishop of Rome, it is in fact a major denial of critical doctrines of salvation. For example where you (Lutherans) advert to the “covering of sins” Catholics believe in the Sanctification of the soul (what Lutherans call imputed righteousness) from sins. IOW, the soul is indeed and in fact sanctified and made Holy. Sins are not “covered” up in a forensic sort of justification.
I never said it was a trifling, but I also do not believe it is necessary for salvation.
Jon
S
steve_b
Guest
Jon,
This is such an old argument. !300 years before your founder invented Protestantism, Augustine had this to say about people who wanted to call themselves Catholic but weren’t.
"[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ ch4:sentence 5 [397 A.D.]).Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
And yet St. Augustine’s argument is just as valid as ever.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Correct there is more than that that is involved…
"Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion."
Are Lutherans Christians? Yes.
Are Lutherans the brothers of Catholics in real way? Yes.
Are Lutherans “Catholics”? Not currently. But work is underway to restore full communion.
Are Lutherans in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church? Yes.
“The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”
Quotes from Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI: vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
S
steve_b
Guest
for the last 500 years
B:
Restoration is looking dimmer not brighter, as time rolls on
B:
IOW
- are they Catholic? NO
- are they outside the Church? Yes
S
steve_b
Guest
putting 2016 context to Augustine’s quote
If someone asks where is the Catholic Church in your town, do you think a protestant of some stripe, is going to point the person asking the question, to one of their assemblies?
I gurantee that if that DID happened, the person asking the question would know in a second he was misled after getting to that location.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Are they Catholics? No.
Are they in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church? Yes.
Are they in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church? Yes.
I’m not 500 years old. I am, indeed, a member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Jon
I know you are a much smarter Catholic, Christian, poster here than to use this type of simplistic argument. This is, IMO, trite, Steve.
Jon
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
Well, in Europe the word “Anglo-Catholic” is well enough understood relative to Anglicanism. “Evangelical Catholic” is a term understood relative to Lutheranism. It has significance to those who use it as a self-expression and to us as well.
The Holy See has been in a dialogue with the Polish National Catholic Church for many years…and it had its start in the United States. I find it very hard to believe that an informed Roman Catholic would not know that the term “Catholic” is anything but coterminous with Roman Catholicism. The Eastern Catholic Churches are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome while governed by their own Code of Canon Law, their traditions, and mode of governance – marked as it is by synodality, toward which the Occidental Church now aspires more and more – while the Polish National Catholic Church is a true Church with valid apostolic succession but which is not in full communion with the Church of Rome.
It is not that hard to grasp, especially when one understands that ecclesiology today is viewed through the lens of koinonia, which is a great gift to all living in the wake of Vatican II.
S
steve_b
Guest
There appears to be potential possibility being bantered around for reunion. It doesn’t seem to be getting any traction though from Lutherans
reuters.com/article/us-religion-lutheran-catholic-idUSBRE90L0HQ20130122
S
steve_b
Guest
Who says arguments have to be complicated? Augustine’s argument is simple, and as good today as it was when he argued it in his day.
S
steve_b
Guest
Still doesn’t make them Catholic. With the exception of those Anglicans who actually became Catholic
D:
do you have a reference to this new use of “Catholic” meaning a Lutheran?
There are Lutherans who aren’t thrilled at that idea . reuters.com/article/us-re…90L0HQ20130122
D:
They’re starting to ordain women priests. Just thinking out loud, I suspect that will cool the dialogue.
D:
This is SUCH an old argument.
When did the term “Roman Catholic Church” first come into being?
Why can’t Anglo-Catholics receive the Eucharist at a Roman rite Mass?
D:
True,
And regarding "synodality, " see section §2 under their code 597
1990 CCOC
jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html
Canon 43 - The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office (munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.
Canon 44 - §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by means of legitimate election accepted by him together with episcopal consecration; therefore, one who is already a bishop obtains this same power from the moment he accepts his election to the pontificate, but if the one elected lacks the episcopal character, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.
§2. If it should happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office (munus), it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it be accepted by anyone.
Canon 45 - §1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.
§2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of exercising this function.
§3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.
c. 597 “The Roman Pontiff, in virtue of his office (munus), possesses infallible teaching authority if, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful who is to confirm his fellow believers in the faith, he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.”
§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallible teaching authority if the bishops, gathered in an ecumenical council, exercise their teaching authority, and, as teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, declare that a doctrine of faith or morals must be definitively held; they also exercise it scattered throughout the world but united in a bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter when together with that same Roman Pontiff in their capacity as authentic teachers of faith and morals they agree on an opinion to be held as definitive.
§3. No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such.
c. 599: :A religious obsequium of intellect and will, even if not the assent of faith, is to be paid to the teaching of faith and morals which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops enunciate when they exercise the authentic magisterium even if they do not intend to proclaim with a definitive act.; therefore the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid whatever is not in harmony with that teaching.”
B
Bookcat
Guest
The Catholic Church (Which is made up of Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics):
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Are Baptists Catholics? No they are Baptists.
Are Lutherans Catholics? No they are Lutherans
Are Methodists Catholics? No they are Methodists.
Are Evangelicals Catholics? No they are Evangelicals.
They are all though in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.
If one of them enters into full communion with the Catholic Church - then yes he is a Catholic.
Some fellow Christians use the term catholic and state in their profession that they believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church …but they are not yet Catholics.
Yes they are fellow Christians and brothers …but they are not yet Catholics. They are not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church.
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
- Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.
vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Are Baptists Catholics? No they are Baptists.
Are Lutherans Catholics? No they are Lutherans
Are Methodists Catholics? No they are Methodists.
Are Evangelicals Catholics? No they are Evangelicals.
They are all though in a certain though imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.
If one of them enters into full communion with the Catholic Church - then yes he is a Catholic.
Some fellow Christians use the term catholic and state in their profession that they believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church …but they are not yet Catholics.
Yes they are fellow Christians and brothers …but they are not yet Catholics. They are not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church.
- Status