Is faith a choice?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rico_S
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Why can’t faith and love be felt on the ‘emotional’ level? I believe it can. If it is the “underlying source” of certain actions, why then doesn’t it come to the surface as emotions in it’s very wholeness of being?

Feelings and emotions are driven from sources within and without… how are they to be simply disregarded as irrelevant to anything else? They do not exist in a vacuum, they are coming from somewhere… where? Faith can stir the whole body, feelings and emotions too, as can love… should the intellect simply rationalize them away as nothing to pay attention to… thereby nullifying the full effect of either?

Aren’t we whole beings? Body, mind and spirit (soul)? What is it worth to live only in the body, or only in the mind… while dismissing the soul as nothing that can be trusted? Faith and love reside in the soul… what is one missing in life by not letting it have full effect on our being? The intellect can reason what faith or love is… but it does not feel it nor spark the emotions to know it, this comes from the soul.
Faith and Love do reside in the soul (faculties said to be memory, understanding and will)…can these spill over into the emotions or feelings - yes they can. To base, however, our Faith and our Love on feelings or emotions alone is truly shifting sands since feelings can be influenced by many variables both interior and exterior, sometimes even the weather.
When Faith or Love does spill over into the emotions/feelings, we call these “consolations” and we should indeed be grateful for them since we are ‘feeling creatures’ and often consolations can encourage us or even strengthen us along the way. Some, however, can go through the whole of life with little or no consolations dependant soley on Faith and Love in the soul alone.
God will provide what is necessary and good always - on that we can bank!

Barb:)
 
Why can’t faith and love be felt on the ‘emotional’ level? I believe it can. If it is the “underlying source” of certain actions, why then doesn’t it come to the surface as emotions in it’s very wholeness of being?

Feelings and emotions are driven from sources within and without… how are they to be simply disregarded as irrelevant to anything else? They do not exist in a vacuum, they are coming from somewhere… where? Faith can stir the whole body, feelings and emotions too, as can love… should the intellect simply rationalize them away as nothing to pay attention to… thereby nullifying the full effect of either?

Aren’t we whole beings? Body, mind and spirit (soul)? What is it worth to live only in the body, or only in the mind… while dismissing the soul as nothing that can be trusted? Faith and love reside in the soul… what is one missing in life by not letting it have full effect on our being? The intellect can reason what faith or love is… but it does not feel it nor spark the emotions to know it, this comes from the soul.
Well, on Sunday evening I was feeling the extreme stress of having a portion of my doctoral study due, needing to complete the proper formatting and references, and suffering intensely from a stomach virus. My emotions were running high. I was feeling anxious. I was feeling worried. I was feeling scared. I was feeling nauseated.

If I went with my emotions, I could have justified yelling at the barista at the coffee shop, writing a scathing email to my professor, punishing my son for behaving like a five-year-old (even though that is what he is), and so on.

There’s a whole group of researchers that would argue that emotions are actually just a product of thoughts. That is, a thought occurs to us (however briefly) and this causes an emotional response. The physical self also has a profound effect on the emotions.

“Aren’t we whole beings?” you ask. Of course we are. But does that mean I’m going to give equal importance to all the “parts” of me? No way.

Look, I’m not saying to disregard the emotions. But to me, they are a message, not a reality. They are too easily swayed by random thoughts, physical changes, the weather. Human beings running their lives by their emotions (“do whatever makes you happy”) is what’s gotten our messed up society to where it is today.

Personally, I enjoy the consolations of which Barbara Therese speaks when they come. But knowledge of my faith keeps me firmly grounded in the Truth, regardless of the comings and goings of fickle feelings.

Gertie
 
Barb and Gertie,

Both of you have explained why it is we should know ‘where’ these feeling and emotions are coming from. One is consolation and another is anxiety, or the weather. These do help us to ‘know thyself’ and what is going on with us… keys to corrective action. I do not look at feeling or emotions to just be acted on, rather to be listened to and figured out by the mind… not from the mind. Faith and love can be known also through the emotions, moreso then the mind. Contrary to popular thought, I do not believe the intellect has any merit on it’s own accord… it takes (name removed by moderator)ut and has output… without any put of it’s own, it merely processes what is given it. Since it is in the ‘middle’ of both the body and the soul, it receives (name removed by moderator)ut from both and has output for both.

As such, the intellect should not be the end of the line with any (name removed by moderator)ut from either direction, but rather carried through to the other side for the fullness of our being. Intuition can be said to be on the soul side, and it simply knows what the mind/intellect haven’t been able to process yet, or perhaps can’t process with logic. This is where Faith comes in… logically one has trouble reasoning it, without using variables like Church or God, of which others who do not see what we mean by these variables, think we have lost our mind. Faith is there, and intuition knows it… it’s that simple.

Listening to those soul side messages, the ones the mind has trouble reasoning, go to the emotions (heart) for the being to know. From there one can do with them as they wish. All the forms of information have been given to us through our whole being from outside us and inside us… do with it as you (free) will.
 
I wont be contributing to this thread again very possibly, as it is just round and round in circles and a waste of time with some on one side of the fence and others on the other side and neither prepared to concede anything, or very little…and simply because we are each coming from totally different perspectives and attitudes about reality and hold to these
Okay, it was nice to post with you, but I guess since you are done contributing it will negate any reason for me to comment on your above contentions. Good luck to you. I don’t think I have changed your mind, but I hope I have at least opened it a little.
 
My points have mostly been about prayer to God concerning help in this world. Many of you think you know what happens in the next world, but it is absolutely impossible to know the truth. Most of you THINK you know, but you don’t even know that you don’t know.

Let’s look at things that we can know. I am an amateur archeologist and I enjoy reading about history. Christians, Moslems, heathens, atheist etc. have all been the victim of terrible acts of nature like floods, famine, volcano eruptions, tidal waves, etc. There have been incredible cruel acts of war and brutalism from the strong against the weak. My point is that it all happens to everyone. Christians have no dispensation. Therefore I just do not see the advantage to being a Christian or any other religion, and I certainly do not see the advantage of praying for help. Either way you have the same odds of something bad or good happening to you. Prayers for help or petition simply DO NOT make any difference.

If we want to thank anyone it should be scientist for finding ways to make our lives better, safer, cleaner, humane, more convenient, and just more civilized. Science has given us a longer and less painful existence than those who came before us. Next thank soldiers of the United States armed services for being part of a strong military that keep us safe from evil tyrannical bullies. For years people languished in terrible lives till these two things came along. It was all the act of determined PEOPLE. God had nothing to do with it either way. Again, I am not among those who think he DOES evil, but I just don’t see him trying to stop it either. We are on our own people!
 
I’m a scientist too, a Master of Science in Statistics, with a co-authored article presented at a few conferences (not a stats conference though), and so was Pascal, child prodigy who invented the calculator, Pascal’s method, and in defense of the the scientific method that scientists use before death at 39. At the age of 11, he composed a treatise on the sounds of vibrating bodies and his work was so precocious that Descartes believed it had to be attributable to his father, not himself. He was still a devout Catholic and was the first to formally use Decision Theory which is an aspect of the science of Management Sciences and Engineering taught to many in engineering, business, medical, and law professions, one can take a class on it at many graduate programs - to give a scientific reason to believe in God. Pascal’s Wager en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager Lots of scientific reason exists to believe in God. The person who did the most to convert me to a faithful instead of lukewarm Christianity is not only a scientist, he has won international math competitions and is obtaining a PhD in Math at Berkeley right now.

An article published in a scientific journal by a living doctor, verifying that the Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano was in fact a miracle, documented in Pub Med, a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729?ordinalpos=128&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

A New York Times article verifying that the Immaculate Heart of Mary appeared to people before the Rwandan Genocide and warned them that if they did not convert and repent, a “river of blood” would occur. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E4D81738F93BA35757C0A96F958260 Maybe that is case, shut, and point that God tries to stop evil. The people were warned. They just didn’t change their ways. It’s been happening like that since Sodom and Gomorrah. The Miracle at Fatima seen by 50,000 to 70,000 also forecasted the Holocaust.

Maybe faith is very scientific.

Maybe one should consider that perhaps God prefers to work through suffering, sacrifice, and people. His grand plan to save the world was for his Son to come down to earth and die on a Cross, which is why we celebrate the Crucifix. If that is what he intends for his Son, why wouldn’t he intend that for all the rest of us? Maybe we Christians should be glad they haven’t yet crucified us all instead of wondering why natural disasters happen to us. Please help me to understand where in the Bible it says that natural disasters will not happen to us or why we should believe we will avoid suffering as a Christian, when Jesus, Paul, and every apostle except John was crucified. Many of the Saints say that all Christians have a daily cross to bear and they love and pray for suffering, seeing it as a way to prove their love for Christ.

Thank you for your interesting points. By causing me to research things such as the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle for the first time, I have learned a lot. 👍

For the glory of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary!! To Proclaim throughout the Earth the MERCY and LOVE of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
ASM:
Maybe we Christians should be glad they haven’t yet crucified us all instead of wondering why natural disasters happen to us. Please help me to understand where in the Bible it says that natural disasters will not happen to us or why we should believe we will avoid suffering as a Christian, when Jesus, Paul, and every apostle except John was crucified. Many of the Saints say that all Christians have a daily cross to bear and they love and pray for suffering, seeing it as a way to prove their love for Christ.
Sure it is true that disasters do indeed happen to Christians. My point all along is that this fact begs the question as to why we should pray for help for things like finding a job, curing a tumor, etc. Why do it? God will not help. Go look at the forum for prayer request. These people are often desperate and in dire need. What good does it do for these people to pray for help? If you read the Bible there are many verses that seem to give these people hope that God will intervene, but yet this is not the reality.

I am NOT saying that God is necessarily wrong, but rather that our approach and belief in God, i.e. religion, MUST be wrong. If you want to have a god life here on earth we should encourage a strong background in science, engineering, and technology. If we want to be safe we should encourage a strong military. The above people do the job they do for fair compensation, so in short we primarily need to encourage a strong independent capitalist system. For this I gravitate to Ayn Rand’s objectivist philosophy. She basically says that by being “selfish” we end up helping our fellow man. This makes sense to me so long as I do what is required to go to heaven in the afterlife.
 
ASM
Thank you for your interesting points. By causing me to research things such as the Lanciano Eucharistic miracle for the first time, I have learned a lot.
Why are you so convinced he did these “miracles”? As we have already discussed above if you were an early Christian God would stand by and watch as you were devoured by lions. If you were an Irish Catholic during the potato famine he would watch as you, your children, and your entire village slowly starved to death. In the current day he would watch as you and anyone in your household died at the brutal hands of some heartless attacker or even if you choked to death on a chicken bone. As I have already pointed out; if all these miracles you believe in were really occurring one would certainly expect to see some chopped off limbs restored. Where are they?

Why is it that God gets all the benefit of the doubt? When some one unlikely thing like a person finding their lost keys occurs they “praise the lord,” but when something terrible occurs “it is just God’s will.” I am not saying that God causes the bad stuff to occur but rather I do not see any evidence that he is involved in any of it.
 
ASM

Why are you so convinced he did these “miracles”? As we have already discussed above if you were an early Christian God would stand by and watch as you were devoured by lions. If you were an Irish Catholic during the potato famine he would watch as you, your children, and your entire village slowly starved to death. In the current day he would watch as you and anyone in your household died at the brutal hands of some heartless attacker or even if you choked to death on a chicken bone. As I have already pointed out; if all these miracles you believe in were really occurring one would certainly expect to see some chopped off limbs restored. Where are they?

Why is it that God gets all the benefit of the doubt? When some one unlikely thing like a person finding their lost keys occurs they “praise the lord,” but when something terrible occurs “it is just God’s will.” I am not saying that God causes the bad stuff to occur but rather I do not see any evidence that he is involved in any of it.
You’re projecting a secular humanist outlook into Christian situations. Many of the early Christians fed to the lions were more than happy to go. We know this, not from pious speculation, but from the actual letters of the saints (e.g. St. Ignatius of Antioch) who knew they were about to die, and who rejoiced in their sufferings. Stories like this can be found earlier, in Jewish history, as in the case of the Jewish mother whose seven sons died in front of her rather than violate the traditions of their ancestors. Disease, war, famine, accidents–all these are results of the Fall. They are unfortunate, but God uses them to bring people back to Him. Perhaps the most grievous result of the Fall is not natural disasters, war, illness and so forth, but man’s descent into seeking sensual pleasure from created objects rather than from God. Christians are to praise God for all things, whether perceived good or bad according to our limited knowledge. The same God who watches people die, ushers them into his Heavenly Kingdom, where joy surpasses anything of attainment in this world.
 
Sure it is true that disasters do indeed happen to Christians. My point all along is that this fact begs the question as to why we should pray for help for things like finding a job, curing a tumor, etc. Why do it? God will not help.
Dear one, you despair of God’s help because God does not behave in the way you think He should. You think God should take away all suffering. You think God should heal all illness and injury, or eliminate them completely. Who are you to tell God what He should or should not do? Were you there when He created the earth or set the stars in their courses?
Go look at the forum for prayer request. These people are often desperate and in dire need. What good does it do for these people to pray for help? If you read the Bible there are many verses that seem to give these people hope that God will intervene, but yet this is not the reality.
What good does it do to pray? Prayer brings peace. Prayer sets one’s mind on God and on things outside of the matters of this earthly life. You love science – scientists have studied the correlation between prayer and physical symptoms such as blood pressure and heart rate. Check it out if you want to know what good it might do to pray.
If you want to have a good life here on earth we should encourage a strong background in science, engineering, and technology. If we want to be safe we should encourage a strong military. The above people do the job they do for fair compensation, so in short we primarily need to encourage a strong independent capitalist system. For this I gravitate to Ayn Rand’s objectivist philosophy. She basically says that by being “selfish” we end up helping our fellow man.
Well, if you can’t trust thousands of years of spiritual leaders, Ayn Rand would probably be a good choice. :eek: So was Ghandi “selfish?” Was Martin Luther King, Jr., just being “selfish?” Was Blessed Mother Teresa just being “selfish?”

People who want to think only about themselves without having to spend time thinking about those unpleasant things like starving children would probably really like Rand’s philosophy. After all, in Rand’s world, you could do whatever you want and trust that it’s really helping people. Unfortunately, our current financial situation would show you that there is no limit to human greed, regardless of anyone else’s suffering.
This makes sense to me so long as I do what is required to go to heaven in the afterlife.
And if you’re going to look down your nose at all religions as being wrong, just exactly how are you going to know what is required to go to heaven? Look, it’s your choice, but I find a disconnect in your “logic.”

God bless you. And regardless of what you choose to believe, I will be praying for you.

Gertie
 
Many of the early Christians fed to the lions were more than happy to go. We know this, not from pious speculation, but from the actual letters of the saints (e.g. St. Ignatius of Antioch) who knew they were about to die, and who rejoiced in their sufferings.
This is pretty presumptuous on your part. Do you really believe they were “more than happy to go?” It is easy to say this kind of thing from the safety of our homes while we are safe, warm and toasty in front of our computer. I have been to terrible scenes of pain, blood, death and mayhem. I assure you that I have NEVER seen anyone more than happy to be there. You read a letter from someone BEFORE the jaws closed and they wrote this to encourage other Christians. If you had been seated in the Roman Coliseum as these heinous events unfolded you would have seen a poor person subjected to terrible pain, fear, and eventual death. It was NOT pretty and you are naïve and over sheltered to think the way you do.
 
you despair of God’s help because God does not behave in the way you think He should.
Look, NONE of you are really reading what I have presented. I have NEVER said the above. I do not think God “should” do anything. I just wonder why there are so many prayers of petition for God’s help when it is quite clear God does not intervene in the affairs of man. Now I did say that when you read certain texts from scripture it seems that God is promising to give to those who ask. There are many many hopeful and optimistic verses from the Bible that simply do not work in real life. I just remain AMAZED that Christians do not see this!
What good does it do to pray? Prayer brings peace. Prayer sets one’s mind on God and on things outside of the matters of this earthly life. You love science – scientists have studied the correlation between prayer and physical symptoms such as blood pressure and heart rate. Check it out if you want to know what good it might do to pray.
No, you are mischaracterizing my contentions. I love truth. The benefits you list for prayer include new age prayer to some weird Oprah inspired god as well as Moslems, etc. It is the result of positive thinking and has no basis in what you as a Christian believe is prayer. I am surprised you even mentioned this.
People who want to think only about themselves without having to spend time thinking about those unpleasant things like starving children would probably really like Rand’s philosophy. After all, in Rand’s world, you could do whatever you want and trust that it’s really helping people. Unfortunately, our current financial situation would show you that there is no limit to human greed, regardless of anyone else’s suffering.
Stop getting your information about Rand and other people from internet sites that write ABOUT these people. Go to the source. Rand does NOT say one can “do what ever they want.” Where did you get that from? It is not accurate.

Actually this financial mess shows what happens when the government over regulates the free market. Congress made mortgage companies give money to people who could not afford to pay them back in the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA). Well duhh! What happens when these people inevitably default? Answer: disaster.
God bless you. And regardless of what you choose to believe, I will be praying for you.
I admit that is nice of you to pray for me. I just wish it is possible for that to do any good. Sorry my friend….we are on our own.
 
As we have already discussed above if you were an early Christian God would stand by and watch as you were devoured by lions. If you were an Irish Catholic during the potato famine he would watch as you, your children, and your entire village slowly starved to death. In the current day he would watch as you and anyone in your household died at the brutal hands of some heartless attacker or even if you choked to death on a chicken bone
Kuzuchi, you bring up insightful and deep points and demonstrate empathy for the Irish Catholics :o JREducation posted a thread where he said that St. Francis of Assisi and his disciples would fast for 40 days to imitate Christ. One of them woke up screaming in the middle of the night out of hunger so St. Francis broke the fast and served all food. Why? Why did Christ start the practice in the first place? St. Faustina also wanted to fast 40 days eating only bread & water but was not permitted saint-faustina.com/Diary/DMIMS12.shtml

In St. Louis Mary de Montfort’s, The Love of Eternal Wisdom" ewtn.com/library/Montfort/lew.htm#Fourteen “175… It was a greater happiness for St. Peter,” says St. John Chrysostom, “to be imprisoned for Jesus Christ than to be a witness of his glory on Mount Thabor; he was more glorious bound in chains than holding the keys of paradise in his hand.” (Acts 12:3-7; Mt 16:19) St. Paul esteemed it a greater glory to wear a prisoner’s chains for his Saviour than to be raised to the third heaven (Eph 3.1; 4.1; 2 Cor 12.2) God bestowed a greater favour on the Apostles and martyrs in giving them his Cross to carry in their humiliations, privations and cruel tortures than in conferring on them the gift of miracles or the grace to convert the world. All those to whom Eternal Wisdom gave himself have desired the Cross, sought after it, welcomed it. Whatever sufferings came their way, they exclaimed from the depths of their heart with St. Andrew, “O wonderful Cross, so long have I yearned for you!”

“If anyone wishes to come after me, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Mt 16:24; Lk 9:23)
“In this sign you will conquer. Have confidence, soldiers of mine, I am your leader; I have conquered my enemies by the cross and by it you also will be victorious.” (Jn 16:33)

Why did Jesus desire suffering, torture, mental and physical pain for saints?
Maybe is it is similar to a guy I met who used to smuggle himself in carts into African countries suffering from civil war and later won a Rhodes Scholarship, or McCain in Vietnam who chose torture to leaving when he had the chance and dignified himself as a Senator: Heavenly glory, love of God, character-formation, to have a work to present to Christ at Judgment day - whether it be gold, hay, or straw?

More Montfort:
176. 1. Because it makes us resemble Jesus Christ
2. Because it makes us worthy children of the eternal Father, worthy members of Jesus Christ, worthy temples of the Holy Spirit. “God the Father chastises every son he accepts;”** (Heb 12:6) Jesus Christ accepts as his own only those who carry their crosses. The Holy Spirit cuts and polishes all the living stones of the heavenly Jerusalem, that is, the elect (cf. 1 Pet 2:5; Apoc 21.2, 10). These are revealed truths.
3. The Cross is precious because it enlightens the mind and gives it an understanding which no book in the world can give. “He who has not been tried, what can he know?”
(Sir 34.9) **
4. Because when it is well carried it is the source, the food and the proof of love. The Cross enkindles the fire of divine love in the heart by detaching it from creatures. It keeps this love alive and intensifies it; as wood is the food of flames, so the Cross is the food of love. And it is the soundest proof that we love God. The Cross was the proof God gave us of his love for us; and it is also the proof which God requires to show our love for him.
5. The Cross is precious because it is an abundant source of every delight and consolation; it brings joy, peace and grace to our souls.
6. The Cross is precious because it brings the one who carries it “a weight of everlasting glory.”(2 Cor 4.17)

May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts that we most desperately need!! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be understood, venerated, respected, loved, and adored for all of time, in all creation!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be belived, loved, respected, and venerated throughout all creation, throughout all time!! AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
If I think a guy will make me happy, how can I have him? Maybe I have to convince him to want me and can’t force his free will: so I must be sweet, be attractive, be smart, have money, be loving enough to be desirable to him. So it’s a gift for him to love me since I could exert 100% effort and still not get him but its also merit because he thinks I deserve it for some reasons and if those reasons didn’t exist (even if unintentional on my part), we wouldn’t be together. The effort I put in may be suffering, especially for those women who undergo plastic surgery or rigorous weight programs. Maybe that’s why many marriages break up when one spouse loses money or gains a lot of weight.

If I want to go to an elite university, I need to take a standardized test and make good grades in the preceding years. Spending money to buy the books to study, taking the time to prepare for the test and my classes, that might be suffering. And the more money I want, the more elite school I should go to, the safer and more profitable subject I study - like engineering or medicine -, then the more I must suffer.

And when I want to get a job, the higher paying jobs often involve more risk and more hard work. Those jobs might also be suffering, especially if I am working 80 hour weeks as a doctor or I-banker.

An international prize or a political office might require suffering in some way.

So if God created these things and they are good, maybe it is a natural law to help us know Merit.

But those are for this earthly life which is only 60-90 years for most of us, and all these things are unstable. Maybe I marry the guy of my dreams and he dies the next day. This week a suicide occurred (MAY HIS SOUL REST IN PEACE) because of the Madoff fiasco, so earthly wealth is fragile. And if you are born in a developing country you may be out of luck no matter how hard you work. uk.reuters.com/article/companyNewsMolt/idUKN2354355520081223

But - if God does not change, his natural law in the world concerns Merit, Jesus says not one iota of the law will pass away, and we might conclude that the ultimate good is eternal life in Heaven compared to this fragile, short, and brutal life on earth. But how do we get to Heaven? Maybe I am horribly wrong but my best understanding of Catholic teaching is that it is a combination of both Merit and Grace just like how we get a spouse. We are supposed to be spouses of Christ, just like in Song of Songs and Christ is the Bridegroom.

Different levels of Heaven may exist according to the saints and also Protestants show this from Scripture.
#I learned in the Heart of Jesus that in Heaven itself there is a Heaven, to which not all, but only chosen souls, have access. St. Faustina’s Diary: saint-faustina.com/Diary/DMIMS12.shtml

And our Blessed and Holy Church teaches:
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness."
1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.”
Cathechism of the Catholic Church vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
"In my Father’s house there are many mansions."John 14:2

Now, for marriage, we know maybe there will be a difficult and perhaps painful dating stage where we may experience heartbreak before we find the right person. Or getting to that elite school or that top job with much money, there will be pain.

St. Louis Mary de Montfort writes in The Love of Eternal Wisdom that St. John of the Cross said to a saintly person after his death, Heaven esteems nothing in this world except for the Cross ewtn.com/library/Montfort/lew.htm#Fourteen
So maybe our currency to make ourselves desirable to Christ and merit Heaven is suffering for love of Christ. Maybe this is fair since everyone can suffer whether in Zimbabwe or Canada but not everyone is beautiful or smart or wealthy. No wonder Christ says, It is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
Maybe the issue is not the concept of suffering temporally on earth, living happily forever in Heaven. Maybe we don’t really belive that God is GOOD. Maybe we don’t have enough faith in Heaven to suffer in the present. HOW DO WE KNOW?

(P.S, maybe this relates to abstinence before marriage. It may help us know delayed gratification + genuine surprise and delight at an unexpected Heaven if we waited and experienced that same feeling in smaller degree on earth)

Maybe a way:
Did the people, saints, who took God seriously have testimony to show. Just as we wouldn’t judge whether or not being a doctor is a worthy job by observing someone who hadn’t gone to medical school, residency, and then practiced for some time, we might not want to judge the effects of living for Christ by people who haven’t followed God’s will to God’s pleasure for a long enough period of time - why we should not judge God by a random stranger on this site as who knows what kind of life that person is leading.
E.G. the bible, When Mary told Jesus about the problems at the Wedding of Cana, Jesus said “my time has not yet come” but turned the water into the best wine anyone had ever tasted.
When James and Zebedee wanted to sit and Jesus’s right and left hand in the Bible, the answer was pretty much no. 😊

St. Teresa of Avila pretty much experienced Heaven on Earth and it was better than physical intimacy as she writes in her Autobiography **The Life of St. Teresa of Avila: ** catholicfirst.com/TheFaith/CatholicClassics/StTeresa/life/teresaofavila.cfmas well as Interior Castle. Her experiences were seen by the people around her and even captured in a picture The Ectasy of St. Teresa So we have at least one testimony.

What about all those promises?
Jesus said, "Amen I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come."Mark 10:29-30

Did they happen? I once gave up a lot of stuff for God and a few years later maybe I had gotten some back, but I definitely did not feel that I had gotten a hundredfold back. Then I realized I had missed the words with persecutions in these promises, and I also realized that God may have a 400 year time span unlike my 5 year time span.

For example, St. Francis of Assisi gave up his house to start following Christ devoutly. Well, I’m named after him. San Francisco is named after him. There must be tons of hospitals, churches, schools, and orphanages named after him all over the world and he has an order that has existed for centuries. So maybe he got all these things back, but not in the way I would have thought.

St. Therese of Liseux wanted to be a missionary but couldn’t because she was too sickly. She died at 24 of tuberculosis in a Carmelite convent and became patron saint of missionaries. She suffered a great deal and was so holy that some call her the “the greatest saint of modern times.” What did she get out of it? At her death she is reputed to have said, “I have reached the point of not being to suffer any more for all suffering is sweet to me.” Can we buy that? Then I learned something. But guess what, Mother Teresa’s original name isn’t Mother Teresa, it’s Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu. Mother Teresa renamed herself after St. Therese. Mother Teresa is also the only missionary I know of in my ignorance who has also won a Nobel Peace Prize and been voted the greatest person in India (not including Ghandi) in the vote by the Indian people. But Mother Teresa didn’t even start off Indian - She is an Albanian born in Britain. So maybe God did fulfill his promise, just not in the way I would have expected.
Autobiography of St. Therese of Liseux: The Story of a Soul gutenberg.org/etext/16772 (In my stupid opinion, her words are highly similar to Mother Teresa’s advice books)

There has been a lot of evil in the world: slavery, colonialism, genocide, but it seems that it may take 400 years (as it did even in the Bible when the Israelites stayed 400 years in slavery in Egypt) but it falls down eventually. Maybe the Kingdom of God is coming on earth, just about 1000 times slower than we tend to think it should. And if it is coming on Earth and His promises are true, maybe there is truth that Heaven is a worthy goal.

But maybe the painful propehcies that came true are more convincing evidence than my weak conjectures.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
Sorry guys that this is so long and confusing 😦

NEW YORK TIMES EVIDENCE OF TRUTH OF APPARITIONS

In Kibeho, Rwanda prior to the genocide, the Mother of the Word appeared. She said a “river of blood” would happen if people did not convert, repent,pray the Rosary, the Chaplet of Seven Sorrows, and stop committing various moral sins, such as the girls sleeping with certain men. Did a river of blood happen? This New York Times Article on the Rwandan genocide documents the apparitions of Mary prior to the genocide. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E4D81738F93BA35757C0A96F958260

Then we look at Fatima, Portugal. See some of the messages from Mary to the three little children: The war [World War I was still raging] is going to end. But if people do not stop offending God, another and worse one will begin in the reign of Pius XI… When you shall see a night illuminated by an unknown light [on January 25-26, 1938 from 9PM to 2AM there appeared over the Northern Hemisphere a very unusual light that scared many people. The New York Times devoted almost an entire page to the event. Scientists attributed it to an exceptional aurora borealis] “know that this is the great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its many crimes by means of war, hunger and persecution of the Church and the Holy Father” [Within two months of the sign, in March of 1938, Hitler invaded his first country, Austria.] loveandmercy.org/loveandmercy/fatima.htm

New York Times article: January 26, 1938
Aurura Borealis Startles Europe; People Flee in Fear, Call Firemen; Britons Thought Windsor Castle Ablaze–Scots See Ill Omen-Snow-Clad Swiss Alps Glow–Short-Wave Radio Halts The most brilliant display of an aurora borealis in fifty years held Britons spellbound over a wide area of this country tonight. From 6:30 to 8:30 P.M. the people of London watched two magnificent arcs rising in the east and west, from which radiated pulsating beams like searchlights in dark red, greenish blue and purple. [End of First Paragraph] Buy This Article, Single Article $3.95 select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00817FB355A157A93C4AB178AD85F4C8385F9

Other articles
Los Angeles Times, Jan 26, 1938 Aurora Borealis Upsets Europeans pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/743927742.html?dids=743927742:743927742&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&date=Jan+26%2C+1938&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Aurora+Borealis+Upsets+Europeans&pqatl=google

Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 26, 1938Aurora Borealis Glows in Widest Area Since 1709Abstract (Document Summary) Radio and telegraphic communication was disrupted and persons in many parts of the world were awed tonight as the aurora borealis [northern lights] flamed brilliantly farther south than the phenomenon ever has been seen by this generation.
pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/441756312.html?dids=441756312:441756312&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Jan+26%2C+1938&author=&pub=Chicago+Daily+Tribune&desc=AURORA+BOREALIS+GLOWS+IN+WIDEST+AREA+SINCE+1709&pqatl=google
Why was the church punished?

Now, there are more apparitions. As far as I can tell the Church is silent. But they warn about the punishments the world will receive. Jesus and Mary specifically mention abortion and gay marriage. Maybe they mention other things, I don’t know. We don’t have to listen. However, when did the Church approve Kibeho, Rwanda apparitions - was it before or after the Rwandan genocide. Do we want to take the chance that these Georgia apparitions will have to take place and the world be punished before we figure out that we should listen? To me, when I read these messages or hear quotes by Mother Teresa by others (haven’t verified for myself the truth though), it sounds like the punishment is nuclear war and she said “The fruit of abortion is nuclear War.” ourlovingmother.org/

May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts that we desperately need! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be glorified, love, adored, honored, believed, and venerated forever and ever, by every person, in all of time!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be respected, believed, and loved in all of time, through all of space and creation, by all!!

And also Happy Holidays to you 😉

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
So? Having wrongly attributed supposedly divine revelation is not an impossibility. Acting wrongly, according to ACTUAL divine revelation, on that BAD INFO is what makes it WRONG!
Right and what worries me is that you are one of these people who think they have the market cornered on “truth.” You do not seem to understand that there is nothing wrong with admitting you do not know the answer to something. When you start with the presumption that you know it all there is nothing more you can learn. That is so sad for you.
info I get from God via my private revelation must be checked against the understanding of the public revelation of the Church.
Again, this is subjective so unless your name has Pope in front of it you will have to forgive me if I take what you say with a grain of salt.
How is that any scarier than someone like yourself who can decide “authoritatively for yourself” what is and isn’t evil or good?
Please give me examples of where I have done that. You are the judgmental one who claims to know the private reflections and motivations of atheist and other sinners you have condemned to Hades.
You can turn on a dime, with no accountability whatsoever! Your idea of “moral decision making”
Since you and I have never discussed specific morals, morality, or my inclination to “turn on a dime” I wonder how you could possibly know that. Please do elaborate.
So, once again it comes down to “God must be (and do) as I say or I won’t believe in Him!”
Nope, not at all. I have stated this very simply before. If miracles really are occurring then the restoration of severed limbs should, as a matter of course, be one of them. Why are you and others so willing to accept nebulous miracles like the disappearance of mysterious pain without at least wondering if they are legitimate? You are so needy and hopeful that you will jump at ANY chance to give God credit for just about anything.
You’ve shown that you’re not listening to understand what we’re saying, but only ranting against what you hear so as to drown out the truth so that you don’t have to “deal with it”.
WE? You have to be kidding. I have seen several of your compatriots disagree with you on this very thread. LOL!

It is you that is refusing to see things as they really are.
 
When you start with the presumption that you know it all there is nothing more you can learn. That is so sad for you.
Hi Kuzushi…but it seems to me that you do presume that you know it all?😉
It is you that is refusing to see things as they really are.
…and knowing it all, seem to presume that you can see all things as they really are in essence. Can you be totally and absolutely sure you have not missed something?..and perhaps something that others can see? After all, I could be looking at the tree…and someone else says “Can you see the cat and the tree”. And I tell them that they are imagining things. Then I shift my perspective slightly towards theirs and see the cat standing behind the tree.😉

Every person is entitled to experience reality from their own ground of being…can this alter or change reality, know it cannot - only the way a person receives and understands it, which after all is an aspect of reality.👍

Happy Christmas, Kuzusi, to you and to yours…sincerely:thumbsup: …Barb:)
 
About miracles, you claim (Kuzushki) that because limbs do not grow back on that miracles do not happen and in order for you to believe that miracles do happen, you need to know that limbs have grown back on…can you not see that you are asking God to behave after your demands? (see quotation from Isaias below)

And again and firstly, because you have no knowledge of (exterior?) limbs growing back on can you be asolutely sure that they categorically never have? There are certainly proven incidences of diseased internal organs being completely healed without any medical explanation. Secondly, by demanding that a miracle be inclusive of (exterior?)limbs growing back on, you discard the many miracles that actually do occur in that there are inexexplicable medically cures connected to Lourdes for one only.

You also discount as irrelevant prayers that may not have produced cures asked, but have produced a sense of lasting Peace that is totally all inclusive and inexplicable in that there is no obvious reason for the sense of all pervading Peace other than prayer. These are the overrriding miracles of Lourdes…far in excess of the proven scientific and medical cures that have no explanation and pronounced by science and medicine as miracles. This ruling has now been changed by Rome. Scientists and medicine are to supply all facts in connection with any one claim of a miracle, but Rome proclaims if a miracle or not. Previously investigating science and/or medicine proclaimed miraculous or not. It was thought that once the ruling was changed there would be a rush of people claiming miracles to Rome, but no new miracles have been claimed since the new ruling.

Sometimes your logic does not make sense…sort of like saying “I wont believe in God unless I see roses of gold if God can do all things”. Why don’t we see roses made of Gold if God can do all things and miracles occur:shrug: …dunno frankly!😊

Why dont exterior limbs grow back if God can do all things and miracles occur:shrug: …dunno frankly!😊

That all means that God does not behave as some pondering roses and exterior limbs think that He should. Why:shrug: …dunno frankly:shrug: …and such ponderings cannot disprove the existence of God only that God doe not behave as some humans think that He should.

[sign]You also say that Scripture is full of incidences where God does not fulfill His Word…please quote:) [/sign]

Prophecy of Isaias - Chapter 55:
6 Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: *

nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
  • 9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. 10 And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it. 12 For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall sing praise before yen, and all the trees of the country shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the shrub, shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the nettle, shall come up the myrtle tree: and the Lord shall be named for an everlasting sign, that shall not be taken away.

Barb:)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
So? Having wrongly attributed supposedly divine revelation is not an impossibility. Acting wrongly, according to ACTUAL divine revelation, on that BAD INFO is what makes it WRONG!

Right and what worries me is that you are one of these people who think they have the market cornered on “truth.”
You apparently have no capacity to actually hear what is told to you, do you?

Only the Church has the “market cornered” on a very tiny (but massively important) aspect of “the truth”. That would be only the truth of what is right and what is wrong within the boundaries of faith and morals.

I certainly have no authority whatsoever to speak about actual truths other than as a “vehicle” for the Church. And even when I do that, I have to be very diligent that I’m not “filtering” those truths with my own “inspirations”. 🙂
You do not seem to understand that there is nothing wrong with admitting you do not know the answer to something.
The entire thinking process of a Catholic is one of admitting that they personally have no (absolute) answers at all about anything, and that the only firm source of any answers in the realm of faith and morals is with the Church.

We, Catholics, who invented the scientific method, are also quite aware that scientific theories are “what works” truths, that they are predicatively useful and ARE a better-or-worse description of physical reality, but that “scientific quasi-truths” (theories) are subservient to the ACTUAL truths (absolute ones) of faith and morals, which are “findable” only via the Church and dedicated listening-attentiveness to natural law.
When you start with the presumption that you know it all there is nothing more you can learn. That is so sad for you.
The Catholic would never presume to say they’ve got God’s creation and intentions all “figured out”. 🙂

Once again, your desperate need to make God, and His people, evil is dragging you gleefully (at the moment) down that staircase into a posthumous suffering that you’ll find most unpleasant.

:shamrock2:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top