Is faith a choice?

[Kuzushi]

Ordination or final vows, valid marriage, is the final stable sign and the point at which we have total assurance of God’s Will for our lives. Until then assurance of God’s Will is relative only.

I am not following you here. Are you saying that we can not know what we are to do till we are married? That can’t be right because those who become priests in lieu of marriage would not be sure if holy orders are right for them. Most people today make such important decisions as career choice before they are married as well.

The Bible and the CCC does lay out a moral framework for leading a moral life, but I just don’t see how so many Christians can clearly say that God is “leading them to go into this or that field”, to “marry this person,” or to even “talk to” a specific person. All through history people have claimed to be doing God’s will and chaos has often resulted.

Moses and other prophets could not be envied for their conversational dialogues with God

You made some good points about the people who had physical conversations with God, but those dire endings had more to do with God’s plan for them. Now you are right that if one starts to audibly hear voices they would have to be sure it is not Satan himself. However, given that one was certain it is God who speaks it would certainly be much much easier to KNOW God’s will then the way things are now.

Life can indeed be hard, life can be cruel and it can be confusing. We need hopefully to go on the journey of our own lives and all it entails and with courage, fortitude and the sure knowledge, I pray for myself and all, that we will always know that our Loving Father looks upon us with Love and Understanding and Compassion - with Mercy

Yes, life can be very hard for atheist, non-Christians, and Christians alike. It does not seem to make a difference. That is why I do not know what people mean when they claim God is “looking out for them.” Looking out for what? At any time any one of us could be the victims of tragedy. First, it is just mathematical probability that works for us or against us. Secondly, I happen to live in the United States and this country’s strong military and capitalist system works well to protect me from tyranny and poverty. I am fortunate, but I just don’st see what God has to do with any of that.

The first Christians were thrown to the lions for the Roman’s entertainment. Now we read that in the confines of our warm homes and think “oh how terrible for them.” Terrible indeed! Can you imagine having your child or other loved one pried from your hands by a centurion and then listening as this poor person is brought to the coliseum. Here the lion attacks and probably eats their arms off first before it shreds their throat. Can you imagine the terror and the pain? Now go back to the unfortunate first person and they realize they are NEXT. How did God help them? I just DO NOT get it.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Kuzushi

Hi again! What I mean is that the final confirmation of God’s Will is valid sacramental marriage, ordination or final vows for those vocations or unique calls and that until then, discerning of God’s Will is relative. One may be more and more relatively sure to whatever personal level, but final confirmation is not until then that this is God’s Will for one as an assured matter.

For example I am under perpetual life private vows - hence my understanding of God’s Will can only be relative in actual fact re those vows and God’s Will, while for my part since I have made perpetual life vows, they stand for life come what may. I may die that way and general indications are I will. Perpetual canonical vows would be another matter entirely. However, I am assured since I am Baptized that my call is to commit totally to Christ and follow His Gospel taking up my cross daily. Since I made the private vows after spiritual advice and careful and prayerful thought over a period and there is nothing sinful about them, I can be assured that it IS God’s Will on a relative level at whatever level of personal assurance. Most cannot live with that insecurity. I hope that is not all too confused (and my poverty) and confusing.

To be honest and in connection with the claims of others re God leading them and telling them, talking to them etc etc…neither do I understand it - certainly never been in my scope of experience. Perhaps such claims are so, perhaps fanciful thinking and the imagination. With hindsight and looking back, I can sometimes and perhaps even often see ‘God’s Hand’ and this may even give me hints to possible future - but as to the actual future, it is mystery.

You made some good points about the people who had physical conversations with God, but those dire endings had more to do with God’s plan for them. Now you are right that if one starts to audibly hear voices they would have to be sure it is not Satan himself. However, given that one was certain it is God who speaks it would certainly be much much easier to KNOW God’s will then the way things are now.

For sure if one could be absolutely certain it would be assurance. But then I think we tend to make God after our human nature and not absolute mystery. God is not going to beat me mercilessly over the head for not guessing His Will (which is not like that!)and something of a human quality at times I think to beat others over the head when our will is not done. We can be sure, very sure, that ***anything at all not sinful ***IS God’s Will to further confuse things I fear …but keeping picking holes in what I say and questioning - eventually I am sure we will arrive at a happy place

Yes, life can be very hard for atheist, non-Christians, and Christians alike. It does not seem to make a difference. That is why I do not know what people mean when they claim God is “looking out for them.” Looking out for what? At any time any one of us could be the victims of tragedy. First, it is just mathematical probability that works for us or against us. Secondly, I happen to live in the United States and this country’s strong military and capitalist system works well to protect me from tyranny and poverty. I am fortunate, but I just don’st see what God has to do with any of that.

Again, I dont understand either the claims of some that God is “looking out for them” meaning protecting them in a physical sense although God can do anything and perhaps He is and does for some. I would not know. Certainly not in my scope of experience.
Most of us Christian or nay, good or bad, live in a completely insecure world and very bad even ugly and evil things happen to the very best of people. We do not want to face that reality and that insecurity. What God does guarantee is our spiritual safety insofar as we allow Him to protect us spiritually. Our human nature is scared silly by the knowledge that we are totally physically insecure in this world and human nature invents all sorts of illusions and delusions to fool itself into thinking that it is safe and secure. But as I say perhaps some do get some sort of guarantee of physical safety and wellbeing from God, I would not know.

The first Christians were thrown to the lions for the Roman’s entertainment. Now we read that in the confines of our warm homes and think “oh how terrible for them.” Terrible indeed! Can you imagine having your child or other loved one pried from your hands by a centurion and then listening as this poor person is brought to the coliseum. Here the lion attacks and probably eats their arms off first before it shreds their throat. Can you imagine the terror and the pain? Now go back to the unfortunate first person and they realize they are NEXT. How did God help them? I just DO NOT get it.

I know what you mean and I have pondered such horror back then and at times equal horror inflicted on some today. Perhaps God at that very moment does help them (and early martyrs were said to sing hymns as the died and prepared to die), I don’t know. I can only look reality in the face as it appears to me and tremble. Faith does assure me that I will never be tempted beyond my means, but still I look at what others suffer and it inflicts me too, I wonder and I tremble. The question can never be “Why me?” Rather the question is forever and always “If them, him or her, then why indeed not me?”

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I think generally we misunderstand the nature of God’s Will which is not always one thing to the exclusion of all else, although most tend to think it is always this. Certainly in the case of valid sacramental marriage and ordination and final vows, God’s Will is declared to be publicly to the exclusion of all else those vocations in life.

Even marriage, the priesthood and religious life are invitations from God to serve Him in The Mystical Body in certain roles. They are not Regal Commands to refuse which puts our soul in jeapordy…although any invitation refused for some reasons can be clearly insulting to the invitation giver.

It needs to be remembered however that God can do all things and is not limited by our human rules and regulations, understandings etc. etc.

Rather God’s Will gives us most often the choice between numerous goods - God’s Will is anything that is not sinful and certainly only mortal sin can separate us from God and His Will.

It is not a complex matter, I dont think, rather so simple I think it can be not understood by complex human beings …and we just love dealing in complexities and making things comlex. The paradox of the simplicities in life is that they often take more explaining than the complexities
Barb

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[BarbaraTherese]

I am not following you here. Are you saying that we can not know what we are to do till we are married? That can’t be right because those who become priests in lieu of marriage would not be sure if holy orders are right for them. Most people today make such important decisions as career choice before they are married as well.

I just want to try anyway to clarify something. The Holy Spirit builds on attraction and He sends attraction in the first place. That is, if I meet a person that I am deeply attracted to, it may well lead to valid sacramental marriage and if it does this is clear indication that this is God’s Will and particular special call to me in the Mystical Body.
A man may be attracted to the priesthood and this may lead to his valid ordination. In his journey to that valid ordination and public declaration by God of His Will for the man’s life, there can be relative assurance by that man of God’s Will for his life, of where God is leading him, to whatever level of personal assurance. It would be totally foolish, imprudent and unwise and a level of spiritual immaturity for sure, for a man on the journey to the priesthood to be so personally assured that it IS God’s Will that he will not listen or hear clear indications that it is not or may well be not, hiding such from those in charge of his formation…most often this leads to tragedy even scandal. Such a person is not abiding by God’s Will but rather his own. And the same all applies for religious life.

After he is ordained then he can be assured it is God’s Will no matter what happens…and those in charge of him or his superiors in The Church are obliged by that valid ordination to do absolutely everything in their power to help the man who is ordained, and before God it is their responsibility and accountability, no matter the problem that presents…insofar anyway as it is problem and not clearly a matter and fact and reality of serious sin. That may well take other considerations by superiors.

Superiors are asked before God to assume a ‘juggling match’ and balance the good of the individual and the common good of which the common good is the superior and the individual is within the common good. Those who do have leadership positions in The Church also have all the Graces necessary to carry out their duties well and effectively.

Barb

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[BarbaraTherese]

I just want to try anyway to clarify something. The Holy Spirit builds on attraction and He sends attraction in the first place. That is, if I meet a person that I am deeply attracted to, it may well lead to valid sacramental marriage and if it does this is clear indication that this is God’s Will and particular special call to me in the Mystical Body.

I felt at first on a reread that I had confused things by using myself as an example of one led by attraction to a valid sacramental marriage, since I am under private life vows for life.

But a second thought occured to me that it is a good opportunity to explain something. A priest once asked me what I would do in light of my life private vows if I met a man and fell in love. I told Father that I would be in a real quandry and difficult situation asking much prayer, advice and thought…I would be on a journey. To fall in love is a great gift of God since God IS Love. But then my private vows for life are indeed vows though private and vows I made to God through a priest with the reasoned and mature intention of keeping them for life. It was a decision I made for the rest of my life. That would be the quandry and the difficulty that would present…the conflict. The decision asked. I told Father I would not know what I would do unless it occured. Father replied that I seemed “pretty altogether” to him.
Private vows for life can be dispensed from by a priest.

If however I was a religious under canonical vows…my decision would be a far more serious matter indeed than the one I would need to make from a strictly moral point of view. Be that as it may I would be just as much personally distressed and in a quandry as any religious. Which would be the more serious decision before God…only the Good Lord can answer that.
Religious pereptual or life vows can only be dispensed from through Rome.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Most people today make such important decisions as career choice before they are married as well.

A career choice is totally different from the call and vocation to marriage or the priesthood which are states in life and sacraments. Religious life is confirmed by Canon Law but not a sacrament. Each of these three are vocations are to a certain state in life and for the whole of one’s life at a certain point i.e. after marriage, ordination and final vows.

A career choice can be a very important decision asking prayer and even seeking spiritual advice - but the choice of career does not morally bind one to it for life come what may, as with marriage, priesthood and religious life. A career can be changed at will more or less. Could a career choice be a call and vocation from God - yes, I think that it could…this however would be a personal and private matter between the person and God.

Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

For example I am under perpetual life private vows - hence my understanding of God’s Will can only be relative in actual fact re those vows and God’s Will, while for my part since I have made perpetual life vows, they stand for life come what may.

I googled the vows you mentioned, but I could not get anything specific. I once went to a retreat house where I was told that all the women were “consecrated” and had “taken vows,” but I do not know the extent of these vows. Is it for poverty or never getting married?

Again, I dont understand either the claims of some that God is “looking out for them” meaning protecting them in a physical sense although God can do anything and perhaps He is and does for some. I would not know. Certainly not in my scope of experience. Most of us Christian or nay, good or bad, live in a completely insecure world and very bad even ugly and evil things happen to the very best of people. We do not want to face that reality and that insecurity. What God does guarantee is our spiritual safety insofar as we allow Him to protect us spiritually. Our human nature is scared silly by the knowledge that we are totally physically insecure in this world and human nature invents all sorts of illusions and delusions to fool itself into thinking that it is safe and secure. But as I say perhaps some do get some sort of guarantee of physical safety and wellbeing from God, I would not know.

Yes, this is very intellectually honest on your part. Most Christians seem to think they have guarantees of safety from criminals, disease, accidents, etc, but they do not. So would you say that most of the people in the prayer request forum are wasting their time or believing in a false hope? I think that they are, but since you have one moniker of “prayer warrior” you have obviously come to a different conclusion.

I believe in warriorship as well, but it is in the interest of defending myself and my loved ones as best I can. In fact if there are any fellow judo people out there they will recognize that my nickname is an important concept regarding taking your opponent’s balance. I do the same with some aggressive financial planning to protect my family on that front.

To be honest and in connection with the claims of others re God leading them and telling them, talking to them etc etc…neither do I understand it - certainly never been in my scope of experience.

We can be sure, very sure, that anything at all not sinful IS God’s Will

Yep, me too, but I must say I am surprised that you and I are on the same page here. This is why I have asked if God intervenes to obtain jobs or heals tumors why are there no severed arms and legs growing back.

Why did you take on the very serious vows you mentioned?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I googled the vows you mentioned, but I could not get anything exit for wordcount\

Every baptized person has taken vows and these are renewed at Easter every year - in our parish with every baptism too. What is known as the “evangelical counsels” and the traditional and ancient vows taken by religious are : poverty, celibate chastity and obedience. These vows by religious (to me) are meant to be very literal and very radical vows. We are all called to poverty, chastity and obedience (to The Church) spiritually. Religious ideally take a far more radical step and ideally commit themselves to these vows very radically in every way. “Consecrated women” usually means religious women under vows. But it gives a false impression that only religious women are consecrated…we are all consecrated to Christ and espoused to Him through Baptism. Religious life is a call to a particular role in The Church and a more radical commitment to their Baptism…it is a public witness by virtue of their public consecration by The Church.

Yes, this is very intellectually honest on your part. Most Christians seem to think they have guarantees of safety exit for wordcount prayer warrior” you have obviously come to a different conclusion.

No, I dont think people who pray for their own needs and hopes and those of others, including those in the Prayer Forum, are wasting their time. God does not experience things as we do - this we can say for sure, which is included in the knowledge that God is total mystery to we humans. We are more sure of what God is not than what God actually is - i.e. I can know God does not experience as I do, while finding it difficult to explain or even know, how actually God actually does experience/as it were:

God at the very beginning of time ‘sees’ all that is to come as an Eternal Now in Him.

“It is going to happen (or not happen) anyway, why pray about it?” can be a question answered by the fact that Jesus tells us that The Father wants us to entrust our needs to Him. “Whatsoever you ask of The Father in My Name will be granted to you”. But then some argue “I never get what I have asked for!” Because, Jesus tells us, that no Good Father will give His Son poison if asked for food. And sometimes what we ask for is not the best for us…God always gives what is best. As humans we only think we know what is best for us.

In the final analysis Faith is going to come down to an actual choice and decision and on many frontiers indeed!

Prayer is always in essence about growth in relationship to God, to The Blessed Trinity…with “relationship” very much operative!!!

I believe in warriorship as well, but it is in the interest of defending edit for wordcount \

We are called by the virtues of wisdom and prudence to act as you are above…common sense and the guide of all virtue tells us that God expects us to use the Gifts He Gives to mankind…but common sense too tells us that bad things very can happen to the best of people. Hence while acting above, we are aware of potential realities. We have not been promised a rose garden in this world, which can be the tremendous mistake that many good people do make in their relationship to God. We are asked “to take up our cross” and follow Jesus - and Jesus’ life ended overwhelmingly tragically. The cross is the emblem of Christianity and yet it is quite often Christians who have problems “marching underneath the cross”. And cross is very much what it spells out as with no rationalizations!!! Our reward, again Jesus tells us, is kept safe where moths and rain cannot destroy things i.e. in Heaven united for eternity to Him.

Yep, me too, but I must say I am surprised . wordcount edit

I do not know to be honest. The question, I think, needs to be addressed to The Lord. Certainly I know for a fact that while there are no actual cases of severed arms and legs growing back to my knowledge, there are cases of healed tumors for which medicine has no explanation. But more importantly there are very often cases of healed spirits gifting great courage and fortitude and with Peace and with Joy…where before there was only sadness and despair or near despair.

As Jesus said “It is a faithless generation that asks for a sign”. And we are very much in very many ways a faithless generation.
We do not experience our call as a call to the cross…rather we interpret our call to a peace and joy experienced anywhere and everywhere but through the cross.

Where the Good News? One really can arrive (journey) at that place where all is Peace and Joy regardless, which does not mean one does not suffer humanly. Paradox! It is an experience that has to be experienced, then you know.

St. Paul said that the cross “is a stumbling block to many” and it still is! Continued next post and forgive me please for the heavy editing of your Post

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Two things I think present huge problems to humanity. The first is death and the second is human suffering of any kind. To this, Christ can give an answer and while not eradicating them in a physical or worldly sense…they are eradicated in a spiritual sense in this world and united to the physical and wordly sense in eternity. Our worldly sufferings and our death are given meaning and purpose. This is our Faith and this is our Hope.

It is very obvious as history has unfolded that nothing can eradicate human suffering in this world. What can be testified to is that many indeed do go through extremes of human suffering with a Peaceful, even Joyful heart…very often strongly witnessed to by our saints - the heralded and unheralded. And nothing is so remarked or wondered upon by society generally than heroism and fortitude, courage, in suffering. It is something to aspire towards indeed with God’s Help and Grace if it should come our way.

Why did you take on the very serious vows?

Unable to enter religious life because of impediments - and to be honest because I felt that very often religious life was not what I felt religious life ideally is all about and this confirmed by my betters - I decided to make private vows and accept the advice of my betters, and live the way I thought I should and a lifestyle was opening in my path. It was a long and at times overwhelmingly difficult journey for many years. Heaps of missteps up a creek, and back to the drawing board, then back ‘on the road’ again. I still very much miss community or companionshiup and the support it can be…I never did experience a call to live alone, it has simply unfolded that way. I certainly did feel a call to very radical celibate chastity, poverty and obedience - and a radical, very radical, commitment to The Gospel as a way of life. I never had a call or attraction to the married state - even in childhood I played the nun who went visiting. Back then unheard of ,

Long and short of it is I made life vows because I felt called to it and because I was attracted to this way of life and way of living in this world. The affirmation if I needed any for me at this point in my life is that hindsight tells me, no matter what I went through, no matter what difficulty etc., I never considered living any other way really. I would perhaps consider entering enclosed contemplative life if a community would accept me, but it would need to be living very radically indeed or I simply would not stay for long. It would not be my vocation nor call.

Thank you for the questions…this is helpful to me too - to actually define where I am at and what I do believe

Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

We are all called to poverty, chastity and obedience (to The Church) spiritually.

I don’t know if I am misunderstanding you or not, but surely not EVERY Catholic is called to poverty. Are you saying that they are? If we were all impoverished no one would pay for the lights. Some religious orders take vows of poverty, but their headquarters have retirement homes for the priests and/or nuns so they are taken care of all through their lives. I have to be honest and say that I think any individual who takes these vows on purpose is being irresponsible in that eventually they may need long term health care, and it will be the taxpayers who foot the bill. Of coarse if this person is somehow independently wealthy first and he or she makes financial preparations for his later years then it would be their choice to live a life of poverty.

No, I dont think people who pray for their own needs and hopes and those of others, including those in the Prayer Forum, are wasting their time.

Well, we both agree that in our experiences God does not intervene in most peoples lives as you have written in your prior post. With that in mind I just do not see what is accomplished by such prayer requests.

But then some argue “I never get what I have asked for!” Because, Jesus tells us, that no Good Father will give His Son poison if asked for food. And sometimes what we ask for is not the best for us…God always gives what is best. As humans we only think we know what is best for us.

So was it “best” for the early Christians to be torn apart by lions? Is it “best” when a school bus full of children coming home from a church functions falls off a bridge and they all die from incineration? Sure, you could always give God the benefit of the doubt, but this fails the logic test. We are to assume that God is both loving and logical. I think it makes far more sense to just accept that we are all on our own and realize that God has nothing to do with it either way. God does not do evil to us, but he does not prevent it when it comes. Therefore it is up to us to be strong and ready to provide for and protect ourselves and our families. If not us then who?

I do not know to be honest. The question, I think, needs to be addressed to The Lord. Certainly I know for a fact that while there are no actual cases of severed arms and legs growing back to my knowledge, there are cases of healed tumors for which medicine has no explanation. But more importantly there are very often cases of healed spirits gifting great courage and fortitude and with Peace and with Joy

As I have said,a miracle is a miracle. If God has indeed healed tumors and spirits then why not severed limbs as well? To one who has created the universe it would not make a difference. The only logical conclusion to be made is that these other “miracles” had a natural explanation. Creating a severed limb where there was none would mean that it was made out of thin air, and we know that matter is neither created nor destroyed. There fore we must conclude that true miracles, i.e. acts of intervention by a supernatural being, simply do not happen.

As Jesus said “It is a faithless generation that asks for a sign”. And we are very much in very many ways a faithless generation.
We do not experience our call as a call to the cross…rather we interpret our call to a peace and joy experienced anywhere and everywhere but through the cross.

Yes, many others on this forum thought that I am seeking or even demanding a “sign.” That simply is not true. I am merely pointing out a fault in the logic of Christian thought. There is nothing nefarious on my part.

Unable to enter religious life because of impediments - and to be honest because I felt that very often religious life was not what I felt religious life ideally is all about and this confirmed by my betters - I decided to make private vows and accept the advice of my betters, and live the way I thought I should and a lifestyle was opening in my path. It was a long and at times overwhelmingly difficult journey for many years. Heaps of missteps up a creek, and back to the drawing board, then back ‘on the road’ again. I still very much miss community or companionshiup and the support it can be

Look, I respect everyone’s right to do as they wish so long as it does not negatively harm others, but why make your life more difficult then it has to be? Life will kick you in the teeth enough on its own so why look for ways to make it harder? I just do not get people like those in Opus Dei who intentionally flog themselves. Why? If you want to join a community I think you should just do it. You seem like a nice and intelligent person, but I see you creating more problems for yourself then is necessary. I hope you find happiness.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

We are all called through our Baptism to poverty of spirit. To live in the knowledge that all good, all that we have be it spiritual or material, is not ours but that it is God’s and we merely exercise stewardship over it and a stewardship for which we are accountable and reponsible.

Those in religious life are responsible for their own material and physical up keep in every way, including the medical and all associated costs and expenses. They are not helped by The Church as an organization either. Perhaps some do embrace the life as a way of being materially secure - I cannot say for sure. It is a perhaps.

Quote:

Well, we both agree that in our experiences God does not intervene in most peoples lives as you have written in your prior post. With that in mind I just do not see what is accomplished by such prayer requests.

Rather, if you read my entire statement into its context, I do not say that God does not invervene, rather that He does, perhaps not as we expect even demand perhaps.

So was it “best” for the early Christians to be torn apart by lions? Is it “best” when a school bus full of children coming home from a church functions falls off a bridge and they all die from incineration? Sure, you could always give God the benefit of the doubt, but this fails the logic test. We are to assume that God is both loving and logical. I think it makes far more sense to just accept that we are all on our own and realize that God has nothing to do with it either way. God does not do evil to us, but he does not prevent it when it comes. Therefore it is up to us to be strong and ready to provide for and protect ourselves and our families. If not us then who?

Of course we mustbe strong and ready to provde for and to protect ourselves and our families. Very often God will not pass the human logic test, but them my belief is that the human logic test is not my point of reference as prime point.

As I have said,a miracle is a miracle. If God has indeed healed tumors and spirits then why not severed limbs as well? To one who has created the universe it would not make a difference. The only logical conclusion to be made is that these other “miracles” had a natural explanation. Creating a severed limb where there was none would mean that it was made out of thin air, and we know that matter is neither created nor destroyed. There fore we must conclude that true miracles, i.e. acts of intervention by a supernatural being, simply do not happen.

I think that you have concluded one thing…I have concluded something else and that our points of reference differ.

Yes, many others on this forum thought that I am seeking or even demanding a “sign.” That simply is not true. I am merely pointing out a fault in the logic of Christian thought. There is nothing nefarious on my part.

I think that perhaps you are asking God for a specific sign that He does intervene in human affairs and in a loving way and the sign you are asking is a particular sign to the exclusion of any others that Christians recognize and accept. These you reject.
I did not mean at all to imply any sort of “nefariousness” on your part. Merely that our points of reference, even consciousness of reality differs. As a Christian, my consciousnes of reality is that God indeed exists and as a Loving Father concerned in all human affairs. Your consciousness differs. No nefarious motives anywhere.

Look, I respect everyone’s right to do as they wish so long as it does not negatively harm others, but why make your life more difficult then it has to be? Life will kick you in the teeth enough on its own so why look for ways to make it harder? I just do not get people like those in Opus Dei who intentionally flog themselves. Why? If you want to join a community I think you should just do it. You seem like a nice and intelligent person, but I see you creating more problems for yourself then is necessary. I hope you find happiness./

QUOTE]

Thank you for the respect and acceptance, which is mutual. I do not, however, see life as something that is going to kick me in the teeth, I have a different view and consciousness of life.
Undoubtedly every person has the right to live their life as they choose providing they are hurting neither themselves nor others. Certainly I am not either…and am happy in my way of life - and the long and short of it is that if I were not, I would not be living it since it is entirely a matter of choosing and deciding. It has had and does have its challenges - which way of life does not.

I wish you Peace and I wish you Joy in your own journey…our problem is I think that we experience reality in different ways and every person is indeed entitled to experience reality from their own ground of being…God bless and happy sailing…Barb

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[Kuzushi]

Those in religious life are responsible for their own material and physical up keep in every way, including the medical and all associated costs and expenses. They are not helped by The Church as an organization either.

Without health insurance I don’t see how someone could deal with the costs now associated with long term care. Of course, health insurance premiums are also very expensive. People live longer today, so I just don’t see how anyone could do this in a practical way.

Rather, if you read my entire statement into its context, I do not say that God does not invervene, rather that He does, perhaps not as we expect even demand perhaps

I have heard this theory before, but I do not see how it can be proven. When good things happen in the lives of Christians they say “praise God, look what he did for me,” but when nothing happens they assume it is God saying no. When a bad result occurs some Christians blame themselves for not being faithful, too sinful, etc. Either way the benefit of the doubt is always given to God.

The Bible is a VERY optimistic book. In the Old Testament the “righteous” are almost guaranteed prosperity, and a good long life. Read Psalms and Proverbs. The New Testament says ask and you shall receive. Lets be honest none of this is reality. Isn’t’ it time Christians acknowledge that something has changed or that a mistake has been made somewhere down the line? It seems it is always heads God wins, tails Christians loose.

Of course we mustbe strong and ready to provde for and to protect ourselves and our families.

I am glad you acknowledge this, because many “sheepeople” do not.

I wish you Peace and I wish you Joy in your own journey…our problem is I think that we experience reality in different ways and every person is indeed entitled to experience reality from their own ground of being

Thanks, and same to you. As far as reality goes I just try to look at things logically and objectively. Things HAVE to make sense. It is easy to say that God’s logic or his point of reference is different from ours, but he did make certain promises to us mere humans in the Bible. I am not hostile to God for not coming through I just think it is our belief in God that may be flawed.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Kuzuski:

Without health insurance I don’t see how someone could deal with the costs now associated with long term care. Of course, health insurance premiums are also very expensive. People live longer today, so I just don’t see how anyone could do this in a practical way.

I am not sure what may operate in other countries, but here in Australia those in religious life must support themselves as religious organizations fully in all medical costs, including long term care. There are private medical funds here for these purposes. Certainly insofar as I know for a religious organization to be viable, it needs to be absolutely self supporting, including all medical costs and this does apply here in Australia.

I have heard this theory before, but I do not see how it can be proven. When good things happen in the lives of Christians they say “praise God, look what he did for me,” but when nothing happens they assume it is God saying no. When a bad result occurs some Christians blame themselves for not being faithful, too sinful, etc. Either way the benefit of the doubt is always given to God.

To prove it an acceptable logical sense is not possible because God is not bound by our laws or boundaries imposed by logic. It takes Faith, Supernatural Faith to unsight and to grasp and to live by it in all Peace and Joy in all things. This is not an impossibility but daily proven by the many.

The Bible is a VERY optimistic book. In the Old Testament the “righteous” are almost guaranteed prosperity, and a good long life. Read Psalms and Proverbs. The New Testament says ask and you shall receive. Lets be honest none of this is reality. Isn’t’ it time Christians acknowledge that something has changed or that a mistake has been made somewhere down the line? It seems it is always heads God wins, tails Christians loose.

If we take Bible passages out of context of THE WHOLE BIBLE and the fulfillment and crisis culminating point of Jesus and His Life, Death, Resurrection and His Message, then we are going to misunderstand. God reveals to us that life does not end in death but that human life is life on earth and then life after death as one whole. This is what Christians believe and that there is no guarantee about life here on earth in which we are subject to all the variables etc. that all human life is subect to - except spiritually - and Peace and Joy are spiritual dispositions and can be experienced midst human suffering, but certainly there are guarantees for life after death, in which “every tear shall be wiped away”.
In the Old Testament, look at our prophets for only one who served God so outstandingly and most came to a martyr’s death a dreadful one…no guarantees there about life here on earth.

Barb said:
Of course we mustbe strong and ready to provde for and to protect ourselves and our families.

I am glad you acknowledge this, because many “sheepeople” do not.

Well if there are any indeed who do not understand this call from God to provide for ourselves and our families insofar as we are able which ability is God’s Gift in the first place, then they are mistaken very much so. Remember too, that God is not obliged nor can we demand that He disperses ANY of His Gifts how we think they should be dispersed.

Thanks, and same to you. As far as reality goes I just try to look at things logically and objectively. Things HAVE to make sense. It is easy to say that God’s logic or his point of reference is different from ours, but he did make certain promises to us mere humans in the Bible. I am not hostile to God for not coming through I just think it is our belief in God that may be flawed

You have hit it on the head, I think - very often what we believe about God can be flawed and mistaken…this cannot be said to be the fault of God nor The Bible - but rather the fault of our misunderstanding of these. The fault lies in our wanting/demanding God to fit into our human ways of understanding and determining…He does not and will not.

Barb

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother. To thee do I come, before thee I kneel, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions but in thy mercy hear and answer them. Amen.

Kuzuchi, you bring up excellent points that I myself am struggling with! Maybe BarbaraTherese will be our light in the dark

The evangelical counsels in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church are poverty, obedience, and chastity.

How can we all be poor, who will take care of everyone else if all the people in the world are to become poor? What does this poverty mean? How do we get our money? By borrowing, grants? How in the world do I help someone else if I am poor? Say I want to end starvation, corruption, crime, and lack of health care services in Nigeria - how do I do this if I am poor myself?

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercesion of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

Yes, there is lots of evidence that poverty is good. Now I have faith seeking understanding. Why does it work? I follow it whether or not I understand why but try to find out why.

It is true that the Sacred Heart of Jesus was poor. When you read On the Seven Dolors (Sorrows) of Our Lady http://writer.zoho.com/public/immaculate/Seven-dolors , you get a sense of just how poor by reflecting on the poverty of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and St. Joseph when they flee out of Egypt as beggars in suffering. Or when I investigated the Fourth Joyful Mystery: The Presentation, I realized that this holy family was poor even for their time. “In addition, if the parents were wealthy, they were to bring a lamb and a young pigeon or a turtle dove to be offered as a sacrifice at the Temple. The custom provided that if the parents were poor, they were to offer two pigeons or two turtle doves for the sacrifice.” goarch.org/special/listen_learn_share/presentation/index_html

And St. Francis of Assisi was certainly poor if he was walking around bare-footed in the snow. But to what level of poverty is the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary calling us… or is this a case of → the more you love the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the poorer you will be - there is no limit?

Truly, I can understand the “love of poverty,” as valuable, not because we ourselves understand them or naturally desire them as I am a sinful woman and may never naturally (only supernaturally) and without great effort come to desire these things, but because the Lord chose in his life to be closely associated with them, and we should love anything that he was closely associated with out of respect for him, kind of like how we keep relics of the saints due to the fact that they were close to the saints. That is in fact the same logic by which Marian devotion is promoted so I can relate to it. As St. Louis Mary de Montfort writes,

"**139. ** Our good Master stooped to enclose himself in the womb of the Blessed Virgin, a captive and loving slave, and to make himself subject to her for thirty years. As I said earlier, the human mind is bewildered when it reflects seriously upon this conduct of Incarnate Wisdom. He did not choose to give himself in a direct manner to the human race though he could easily have done so. He chose to come through the Virgin Mary. Thus he did not come into this world independently of others in the flower of his manhood, but he came as a frail little child dependent on the care and attention of his Mother. Consumed with the desire to give glory to God, his Father, and save the human race, he saw no better or shorter way to do so than by submitting completely to Mary.

He did this not just for the first eight, ten or fifteen years of his life like other children, but for thirty years. He game more glory to God, his Father, during all those years of submission and dependence than he would have given by spending them working miracles, preaching far and wide, and converting all mankind. Otherwise he would have done all these things.

What immeasurable glory then do we give to God when, following the example of Jesus, we submit to Mary! With such a convincing and well-known example before us, can we be so foolish as to believe that there is a better and shorter way of giving God glory than by submitting ourselves to Mary, as Jesus did?

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O My Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls into heaven especially those most in need.

Remember, we do not believe because we understand or we agree. We believe because it is true. Do we believe in President Bush because we want to believe in President Bush or because President Bush’s actions happened and we saw them happen? Should we believe in the Virgin Mary because we like her or because we have documented and videotaped evidence of her existence, going so far as being documented in the New York Times. Or will we have faith in everything else the New York Times says and not have faith in her as well?

She came to Rwanda in the 1970s. She predicted the “river of blood” if people did not repent, pray the Most Holy Rosary, the Chaplet of Seven Sorrows, and convert. Did Rwanda listen? No. Did the river of blood happen? Yes.

This New York Times article documents her apparitions: query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E4D81738F93BA35757C0A96F958260

So, should we be the same way? Refuse to believe because we don’t understand or we don’t like it and then… face the consequences that will be much worse than the Holocaust and Rwandan Genocide?

The first consequence was the Holocaust, predicted by the Fatima apparitions. The second consequence was the Rwandan Genocide, predicted by the Kibeho apparitions. Now there are more apparitions that we still do not believe! What will be the consequence?

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The evangelical counsels in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church are poverty, obedience, and chastity.

How can we all be poor, who will take care of everyone else if all the people in the world are to become poor? What does this poverty mean? How do we get our money? By borrowing, grants? How in the world do I help someone else if I am poor? Say I want to end starvation, corruption, crime, and lack of health care services in Nigeria - how do I do this if I am poor myself?

The virtue of Poverty is all about owning whatever we do own as if we own nothing and as if it were all God’s…for indeed this is our human situation. We own absolutely nothing whatsoever…if I am healthy and able to work and have a good job or a successful business, these are all gifts of God that belong to all - since God has given me the health and ability etc. in the first place.

We own nothing in this world…we are servants of The Lord and stewards of His Gifts for which we are accountable and responsible…

Religious speak to this truth and situation by renouncing what we understand to be humanly as our ownership. Religious own nothing and ideally are totally materially poor in every way dependant on God alone for their survival. Ideally!!! For in fact this is the real situation for every single person!

For example if a person is exceptionally wealthy. If God did not put them into the circumstances they are through ability or whatever…they would not be wealthy in the first place. Hence the wealthy person has a very real and living responsibilty and accountability to use his/her wealth wisely - especially towards the poor - as a servant of God and His steward.

And in the Mystical Body, the Gifts of God are not for individuals but for the good of the whole Body, The Church…and The Church embraces lovingly the whole of mankind…this whole universe.

Blessings…and regards…Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

I am not sure what may operate in other countries, but here in Australia those in religious life must support themselves as religious organizations fully in all medical costs, including long term care.

But I don’t see how they can do this with what they are paid. We in the United States have things like midciare/medicade and other safety nets for those who can not afford medical care. Ultimately it is the taxpayer who has to support indigent patients. I doubt if your country would simply let someone die because they do not have the funds. I only mentioned this because it is a pet peeve of mine to see someone get praised for “giving it all up and becoming a missionary” or such while those of us with regular jobs will end up paying for them in the long run.

If we take Bible passages out of context of THE WHOLE BIBLE and the fulfillment and crisis culminating point of Jesus and His Life, Death, Resurrection and His Message, then we are going to misunderstand.

I do not think I am taking the Bible out of context with my original statements. Most Christians do not realize that the New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church over many years. There was much disagreement as to what got in and what was excluded. We do not even have any of the original writings, but rather copies of copies. I have always seen this as a problem. However, we have to work with what we have and when one reads the Old Testament it does indeed make some very optimistic promises for the “righteous.” Similarly, the New Testament often lists grand promises that would honestly make a reasonable person believe that Jesus is looking out for us in our daily lives.

God reveals to us that life does not end in death but that human life is life on earth and then life after death as one whole. This is what Christians believe and that there is no guarantee about life here on earth in which we are subject to all the variables etc. that all human life is subect to - except spiritually - and Peace and Joy are spiritual dispositions and can be experienced midst human suffering, but certainly there are guarantees for life after death

Yes, this is indeed how life REALLY seems to be. We are on our own in this world and it is the next world which Christians are to look. However, as I said in my above statement that really is not how the Christian faith is represented in the Bible. I guess we could thoroughly examine all these promises I speak of, but I think you know which ones I mean. Just peruse the Bible any time and they are everywhere.

Realistically, most Christians do not live their life as if it is only heaven that matters. They worry about their 401 (k) plans and this devastating market. They want their kids to get paid scholarships and get into Ivy League schools. Now I suppose that someone like you who has taken vows to give up most of what people have could say that we should all follow your lead. However, I would argue that many of these everyday Christians are relying on many of God’s promises in the Bible to help them in their daily lives. The problem of coarse is that you and I realize that God has decided not to intervene in this world.

You look at this fact and say “look to the afterlife.” I look at it and say there is a problem or disconnect with the Bible, the Church and the way things really work. I don’t know what it is; maybe the Catholics have made gross errors in the books it compiled and included in scripture and in its teachings. Again, I just do not see any benefit to prayers of petition. Go look in some of the other forums and you will see them by the hundreds. What good are they?

Remember too, that God is not obliged nor can we demand that He disperses ANY of His Gifts how we think they should be dispersed.

Sure, but then why are so many wonderful things promised? Ultimately, God does or does not disperse as he wishes because he is God. However, I think it is time for us to modify our system of beliefs and worship in light of reality.

You have hit it on the head, I think - very often what we believe about God can be flawed and mistaken…this cannot be said to be the fault of God nor The Bible - but rather the fault of our misunderstanding of these. The fault lies in our wanting/demanding God to fit into our human ways of understanding and determining…

Yes, this is well stated and this is why I wonder if we as Catholics and all of Christianity are correct. Our “human ways of understanding and determining” IS religion. We Christians can not even agree among ourselves, so I think the chances that ANY of us have it right are very slim.

 

[Kuzushi]

The virtue of Poverty is all about owning whatever we do own as if we own nothing and as if it were all God’s…for indeed this is our human situation. We own absolutely nothing whatsoever…if I am healthy and able to work and have a good job or a successful business, these are all gifts of God that belong to all

Now this sounds a lot like socialism or even communism. I am sure you did not mean for it to come out this way. One thing you did not mention is the hard work put in by the business owner. He or she earned their pay and ONLY they are entitled to enjoy it. Of coarse it is between the business owner and God as to the amount he tithes.

For example if a person is exceptionally wealthy. If God did not put them into the circumstances they are through ability or whatever…they would not be wealthy in the first place.

Well in your posts to me you have agreed that there is no certainty of God’s intervention. Some time things happen with or without God’s approval. God may be simply neutral on it. Do you believe that we all have free will or are you a determinist? There are some evil wealthy people in this world. Did God make them rich? Of coarse not; it just happened.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Kuzushi:

Now this sounds a lot like socialism or even communism. I am sure you did not mean for it to come out this way. One thing you did not mention is the hard work put in by the business owner. He or she earned their pay and ONLY they are entitled to enjoy it. Of coarse it is between the business owner and God as to the amount he tithes.

My poverty, but you will never hear me speaking or writing in terms of any “isms” whatsoever, since this can sidetrack completely into definitions…or worse, people have different definutions and hence are not ‘talking’ about the same thing.

Of course aptitude and work put into a business by the owner play an important part in a successful business - but Faith tells me that that aptitude and health to be able to work etc. etc. flows from God in the first place and hence belong to Him…we remain only stewards as I said previously and we are all accountable and responsible to God and the more I insight that the more accountable and responsible I am to God.

Well in your posts to me you have agreed that there is no certainty of God’s intervention. Some time things happen with or without God’s approval. God may be simply neutral on it. Do you believe that we all have free will or are you a determinist? There are some evil wealthy people in this world. Did God make them rich? Of coarse not; it just happened.

What I said previously is that God does indeed intervene since all prayers are answered, what God may or may not do is intervene as I or anyone thinks or hopes that He should. I have no idea, nor to be honest, any interest in what a ‘determinist’ may be - perhaps a member of determinism??? I am certainly not powerless to change my destiny, nor is anyone else…and this is a teaching of Scripture, of The Gospel, The Church…of Faith. While to some degree we are tossed about by destiny with some things beyond our control at least in the occuring.

True that there are terribly evil and wealthy people in this world. Their riches do indeed flow from God since riches can do much good in this world and God’s ownership of riches asks that stewardship be in goodness and accountable and responsible to him. The evil person and God’s gift used for evil flows from that person of free will.

Our problem remains, I am convinced, that I view reality through the eyes of Faith…and you view it differently.

Barb