Is faith a choice?

[Kuzushi]

Best to you in finding healing for your injuries of heart and mind so that love and truth can become for you worship-worthy in the future.

I have no “injuries” other than the usual bumps and bruises we all encounter. Actually, I was just saying to my wife today that despite this crazy stock market we have been quite fortunate. Things could have been much worse.

It is common for Christians to automatically assume that one who says some of the things I have written above must, by default, have serious pain or a crisis of faith, etc. This is not the case with me. I have simply done some serious examination of the facts and found that there are some glaring holes in what many people believe. I recommend that you do the same some day.

It has been interesting and educational to have this exchange with you. I would say that I will pray for you, but…well you know.

 

[St_Gregory]

So what would you say to the claim that I shouldn’t parcitpate in the sacraments nor the credo if I have severe religious doubts or if I simply cannot see why Christianity is the one true faith?

Btw thanks to all who replied to my post.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

So what would you say to the claim that I shouldn’t participate in the sacraments nor the credo if I have severe religious doubts or if I simply cannot see why Christianity is the one true faith?

Btw thanks to all who replied to my post

The sacraments are powerful even if you don’t believe in them if you are not committing mortal sins. Besides, who are the great moral leaders of this century? To the best of my imperfect knowledge, I put: Mother Teresa, Reverend Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela. How many of these are religious people? 3 out of the 4. Mother Teresa, Reverend Martin Luther King, and Mahatma Gandhi. How many of these are Christians? Mother Teresa and Reverend Martin Luther King, for sure. Mahatma Gandhi practiced Hinduism but he also said when asked whether he was a Hindu. “Yes, I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew,” as well as: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike Christ.” Did these people influence each other? Well, Mother Teresa seems to have been mostly influenced by the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, the Immaculate Heart of Mary, St. Francis of Assisi, and St. Therese of Liseux.

However, the rest did learn from each other. Mahatma Gandhi is known for his concept of nonviolence, which he used to help secure the liberation of India, just as Reverend Martin Luther King used nonviolence to secure the civil rights for African Americans and Nelson Mandela used nonviolence to secure the end of apartheid in South Africa. What did the Sacred Heart of Jesus say about non-violence in the New Testament. “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who cruse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone stikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind of the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” (Luke 6:27-36)

I think it is up to you to weigh the evidence of each religion as Gandhi did if you want to decide, he read about Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and other religions, and see which religion has the most genuine evidence for it - historically which is accurate? And are the ones who completely devote themselves to this religion holy people? At least for Christiniaty, the first principle is “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul.” So reading historical evidence and great works and science will never be at odds with Christianity. Have you read these works, for example The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune and Master of Laws graduate of Yale Law School? Please do if you don’t believe? Maybe you like to see thoroughly researched historical evidence - interviews and archival research.

Not all Catholics follow the Sacred Heart of Jesus. As Jesus himself said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons aand perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”(Luke 7:21-23) So it is at disservice to oneself that one evaluate Christianity or Catholicism by those who are not recognized by the religion to have truly followed Jesus. In Catholicism, it is the lives of the saints that one should examine. In my ignorance, I am under the impression that these are the only people that our Church certifies are in Heaven.

I would also research miracles. Our Lady of Fatima, to the best of my knowledge, predicted the Holocaust. Our Lady of Sorrows in Rwanda predicted the Rwandan genocide. The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano is published in a scientific medical journal…etc etc

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[St_Gregory]

AveSantaMaria, thanks for your post which I shall respond to.
– I’ve decided not to receive at least Eucharist while I do not really believe Christianity.

I have read The case for Faith by L.S.
And as far as Historical Christ, I’ve read all the historical evidence bits of: “Who on Earth was Jesus?: The Modern Quest for the Historical Jesus” (D.Boulton; a journalist and Baptist Christian) — being honest I see no way to show the truth of Christianity by history, yes it possible and there’s no hard evidence against the Resurrection and the like but there’s not enough evidence to really base one’s faith solely on history. It’s plausible that Jesus died as you’d think and then the teachings and live of Jesus lived on in the early Christians hearts and then communities wrote literature on their believes of which some became scripture - it’s worth noting that the gospels may not have been written by their ascribed authors at all, and also that their were other 1st century gospels which never made it into the NT.

I think it is up to you to weigh the evidence of each religion as Gandhi did if you want to decide, he read about Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and other religions, and see which religion has the most genuine evidence for it - historically which is accurate? And are the ones who completely devote themselves to this religion holy people?

I don’t like the idea of “weighing evidence” - if a religion is ABSOLUTELY true, then there must be a way towards certainty of it’s truth - not probability. T. Aquinas maintained that faith leads us to a certainty of Christian truth, not mear probability.
Furthermore, my way of thinking has been shaped by Christian thought, and so I cannot completely be objective in evaluating religious belief.

Sorry to be so critical

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

St. Gregory, the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary commands us to serve the Lord our God with our whole heart, mind, and soul. That’s the first commandment. However, before I go on further with more proofs, which I will be happy to post I want to ask you a question first

Imagine that there really does exist up in Heaven, where all desires are satisifed, a King of Glory with power, truth, wisdom, justice, love and mercy whose greatest attributes are love and mercy. What would he have to do to get you to believe that he loves you and for you to serve him with all of your mind, heart, and soul? That means: serving him as a “living sacrifice,” “praying always,”. placing all your hopes in this life on him and him alone, being willing to carry His cross with him and suffering greatly for this sake of this King? For you as a person, how could you come to believe, and not only believe, but love greatly and suffer greatly?

Kuzuchi, I ask the same question of you. However, I think that I can guess Kuzuchi’s answer: if God healed an amputee that you could verify, you would be willing to be a living sacrifice for God, imitate the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary in desiring to carrying his cross every instant of your life?

Thank you for your time, patience, and consideration!
Remember, I am a poor, ignorant, blind, stupid, weak, and miserable fool - so if my defenses of the Sacred Heart of Jesus are not sufficient, don’t blame it on the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, blame it on my own stupidity!

A beautiful Marian promise on the Most Holy Rosary:

Sister Lucia from Fatima told Father Fuentes in a 1957 interview. “Look, Father, the Most Holy Virgin in these last times in which we live has given a new efficacy to the recitation of the Holy Rosary. She has given this efficacy to such an extent that there is no problem, no matter how difficult it is, whether temporal or above all, spiritual, in the personal life of each one of us, of our families, of the families of the world, or of the religious communities, or even of the life of peoples and nations that cannot be solved by the Rosary. There is no problem I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we cannot resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary. With the Holy Rosary, we will save ourselves. We will sanctify ourselves. We will console Our Lord and obtain the salvation of many souls.”

Free information on devoting oneself to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
Online Adoration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament http://louisville-catholic.net/WebCameras/AdorationChapel/tabid/825/Default.aspx
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin montfort.org.uk/Writings/TrueDev.html
**Secret of the Rosary ** montfort.org.uk/Writings/Rosary.html
Preparation for 33 day consecration to the Blessed Virgin saintlouisdemontfort.com/consecration.cfm
Reflections on True Devotion to Mary by His Holiness Pope John Paul II http://www.michaeljournal.org/montfort.htm
**The Glories of Mary, ** by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, one of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church, explains Hail Holy Queen http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm
On the Dolors of Mary by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, one of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church, explains the sufferings of Our Lady http://writer.zoho.com/public/immaculate/Seven-dolors
Marialis Cultus (Apostolic Exhortation for the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary of His Holiness, February 2, 1974 by His Holiness Pope Paul VI ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6MARIAL.HTM
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devotion_to_the_Sacred_Heart_of_Jesus#FIRST_POINT._.E2.80.94_The_ardent_desire_Jesus_Christ_feels_to_be_with_us.
Divine Mercy Chaplet ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm
Cathechism of the Catholic Church vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

​

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[St_Gregory]

Okay, AveSantaMaria, you’re clearly an exceptionally kind and loving person so God Bless you!

In response to your question: I do not know. I appreciate that God cannot give us “proof” in any sense of the word except in our hearts - yes I’m well informed in T. Aquinas Faith and Reason in harmony.
I guess some kind of spiritual certainty that many saints talk about, but whatever it takes I haven’t got it.
I should note I am still a practicing Catholic as far as mass attendance and prayer is concerned - even if I don’t feel I have true faith in the Church’s Teaching for to receive Eucharist.

In response to the rosary promise: again, I just don’t know that’s true do I. Sorry to be so critical - I mean no rudeness.

~thanks

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

All praise given to me is reflected back to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Maybe you do not have less faith than the greatest of saints anyways

Exhibit A:
"I call, I cling, I want… and there is no One to answer…no One on Whom I can cling …no, No One, Alone…

Where is my Faith… even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness and darkness… My God…how painful is this unknown pain…I have no Faith…I dare not utter the words and thoughts that crowd in my heart… and make suffer untold agony.

So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them… because of the blasphemy… If there be God…please forgive me…When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven there is such convincing emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. I am told God loves me… and yet the reality of darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul." Mother Teresa’s Crisis of Faith time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1655415,00.html

Exhibit B
Yet, Father Joseph Langford, cofounder with Mother Teresa of her community of priests said, “Our Lady would help her to not only believe in the night, but to love the night – to transform the mystery of the cross, both within her and around her, into seeds of ressurection.” Mary’s light in Mother Teresa’s Dark Night zenit.org/article-22398?I=english

Just follow this: 1 Corinthians 13:1-13
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish things behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

It’s a good word

Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[St_Gregory]

Okay thanks for that:

did Mother Teresa receive Communion do you know? How long did her doubts persist?

I’m unsure what ex B meant,

As for Corinthians: okay that’s all well and good - but I still cannot claim to truely “believe” in Christianity if all I have is a loving spirit - I could surly be a loving person through Theistic Agnosticism.

I dunno lol

 

[Kuzushi]

In response to your question: I do not know. I appreciate that God cannot give us “proof” in any sense of the word except in our hearts

When you say “in our hearts” don’t you really mean our emotions? That is SO unreliable and it is subject to so many interpretations.

You have made some excellent posts here.

 

[Kuzushi]

As for Corinthians: okay that’s all well and good - but I still cannot claim to truely “believe” in Christianity if all I have is a loving spirit - I could surly be a loving person through Theistic Agnosticism.

This very true, and there are many highly moral atheist. One does not have to be “Christian” to be kind, companionate, or loving. I have tried to convey this many times before , but you have said it quite well.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

When you say “in our hearts” don’t you really mean our emotions? That is SO unreliable and it is subject to so many interpretations.

You have made some excellent posts here.

Good comment. Emotions can and most often do fluctuate and are never a good foundation for discerning reality - they are based often on many variables ( in some instances unconscious) that can and often do change. Feelings in part can tell us who we are, but they are never the whole of us.

Faith will be a choice and decision at some point - and our particular spiritual path and our Faith is a choice and decision that is a daily renewed commitment - simply because it can be on most days we waver somewhat somewhere…called “human nature”. Faith and reason are not incompatible and Faith seeking to understand is of immense value - even invaluable and vital, necessary.
Certainly if one intends to evangelize one needs to be able to explain the why’s and wherefore’s of what one does believe.

Barb

 

[St_Gregory]

When you say “in our hearts” don’t you really mean our emotions? That is SO unreliable and it is subject to so many interpretations.

You have made some excellent posts here…
This very true, and there are many highly moral atheist. One does not have to be “Christian” to be kind, companionate, or loving. I have tried to convey this many times before , but you have said it quite well.

Thanks ,
I dunno what religious background you’re coming from thought but okay.
Barb:

Faith will be a choice and decision at some point - and our particular spiritual path and our Faith is a choice and decision that is a daily renewed commitment - simply because it can be on most days we waver somewhat somewhere…called “human nature”. Faith and reason are not incompatible and Faith seeking to understand is of immense value - even invaluable and vital, necessary.
Certainly if one intends to evangelize one needs to be able to explain the why’s and wherefore’s of what one does believe.

Okay, i guess that’s largely my position at the moment but I’m still learning.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Thanks ,

Originally Posted by Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

Emotions can and most often do fluctuate and are never a good foundation for discerning reality - they are based often on many variables ( in some instances unconscious) that can and often do change.

This is SO true. That is why I do not understand how so many Christians appear to be so sure on discernment issues in regard to “God’s will” in their life. Moses and some of the saints are said to have had active conversational dialogs with God. That would make it much easier to at least know what one is supposed to do.

It is good that you and I agree on this issue, yet I am sure we have drawn entirely different conclusions about faith.

Certainly if one intends to evangelize one needs to be able to explain the why’s and wherefore’s of what one does believe.

Yes, and this is where the Catholic Church has done a good job.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

This is SO true. That is why I do not understand how so many Christians appear to be so sure on discernment issues in regard to “God’s will” in their life. Moses and some of the saints are said to have had active conversational dialogs with God. That would make it much easier to at least know what one is supposed to do.

It is good that you and I agree on this issue, yet I am sure we have drawn entirely different conclusions about faith.

Yes, and this is where the Catholic Church has done a good job.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I was just about to respond to the above Post when the doorbell went and I thought I had clicked “Preview” but must have clicked onto “Submit” accidentally …apologies!
Thank you for the comments, Kuzushi, and though I cannot completely agree on all points, I most certainly did and do appreciate and value them…sincere and logical conflict to me means most often that the whole truth of the matter is yet to surface and unfold and as such is entirely healthy. ……………of course being female of the species – I always without fail hold that whole truth ………LOL!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese
Emotions can and most often do fluctuate and are never a good foundation for discerning reality - they are based often on many variables ( in some instances unconscious) that can and often do change.

Kuzushi replies:

Quote:
This is SO true. That is why I do not understand how so many Christians appear to be so sure on discernment issues in regard to “God’s will” in their life. Moses and some of the saints are said to have had active conversational dialogs with God. That would make it much easier to at least know what one is supposed to do.

We can have assurances re God’s Will in a unique vocation for our life rooted in our Baptism as there are stable signs re such a special vocation besides variable ones of which emotion is. The final stable sign, however, does not occur until valid sacramental marriage, ordination or final vows and that is quite a few years after the recognized discernment period. In the case of valid sacramental marriage, wisdom and prudence would normally certainly ask that a lapse of some years has passed in discerning while this obviously is not absolutely necessary for a valid sacramentally and successful marriage. Experience of some married others tells me this.

Ordination or final vows, valid marriage, is the final stable sign and the point at which we have total assurance of God’s Will for our lives. Until then assurance of God’s Will is relative only. This tells one that valid sacramental marriage should not be entered into lightly as it is for life, no exceptions allowed under any circumstances except proof furnished to The Church of a non valid sacramental marriage at the time of marriage. Until then (valid sacramental marriage, orindation or final vows), in truth actually, discernment and discerning is ongoing. And even once our special and unique vocation has been finally discerned if such is God’s Will for a life, God may be calling to some special work within that vocation, and this will ask a discerning process of varying lengths also. Once also, the discernment is finalized, God’s Will for a life are the duties of that particular unique vocation of that we can be always most assured without doubt!

Having been assured to final assurance of one’s unique and special call and vocation in life, can it change? “God can do all things” I think is the appropriate answer.

We need to be ever alert and sensitive to The Holy Spirit, praying for this Grace always: for our “meat is to do the Will of He who sent” us into this world with purpose and a purpose for each life in this world.

Baptism is our intial and prime vocation and special call from God to each and all baptized persons. It is a call to take up one’s cross and follow Christ in the living out of His Gospel…it is a call to Unity with God. Hence no Baptised person is without a vocation and a call from God…special and unique calls and vocations in life flow from our prime vocation of Baptism.

Moses and other prophets could not be envied for their conversational dialogues with God in what God was asking them to do. And most met a sticky and violent end. As for our saints and their supernatural conversational dialogues, my imagination tells me that probably the overwhelming humility that such would effect, would almost be unbearable and palpably painful. I am not at all envious of any of them I must admit! and happily choof along with the usual problems discerning God’s Will at times and most always in following it.

St. Teresa of Avila who was blessed with astounding frequent, often quite relaxed, conversations with Jesus was plagued most all her life with doubts about their validity on a pretty stable on and off basis and sought the advice of many wise and learned, holy priests seeking assurance she could hang on to, it seems. Such conversations she declares herself in her writings should never be desired as they are too open to self deception and the deceptions of the devil. They are also, she declares, not at all necessary to true mysticism and the mystical … rather, she states, they are sent in order to support the weak in Faith. The true necessity for the mystical and mysticism in truth, she relates, is love of neighbour. St. Teresa herself states in the Seventh Mansion that all these astounding supernatural phenomena disappears…and it was in this Seventh Mansion and in the absence of all such matters that St. Teresa states she was to experience nothing but Absolute Lasting and Unfluctuating Peace for the first time.

It is good that you and I agree on this issue, yet I am sure we have drawn entirely different conclusions about faith.

Faith is a spiritual disposition like Hope or Charity, Fortitude or Wisdom etc. It is a supernatural virtue. What actually we place our Faith in is again based on variables, some of which are unconscious. Be that as it may, I do believe that there is Ultimate Truth - and expressions of Ultimate Truth flowing directly from Ultimate Truth. Alleluia Amen. The former (based on variables) is human and fallible, while the latter (Ultimate Truth and expressions of) is infallible by nature … … .

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

**Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese **
Certainly if one intends to evangelize one needs to be able to explain the why’s and wherefore’s of what one does believe.

Kuzushi replies: Yes, and this is where the Catholic Church has done a good job.

I truly do not mean to be argumentative , but in truth I am unsure if The Church has done a good job and is doing one, at least where the average Catholic person in the street type of person………and in reaching out to ordinary average people. Most faithful Catholics are just ordinary everyday sort of people…although the ranks are thinning.

The most common comment I think I have heard from those interested in Catholicism is that “it is all so complex and confusing”. I do feel that down the centuries of Her existence, The Catholic Church has been called upon so often to defend Herself, Her Teachings and Beliefs, and to defend Herself against highly gifted intellectually persons and organizations…that Catholicism in many instances is complex!………that Catholicism has become to the average Catholic and person a complex matter and is a very complex matter to such ordinary people. Most are unable to explain their beliefs to logical conclusions and take refuge most often in pious utterances in which there may be truth or there may not be. This is a very safe and valid refuge for many that I am sure The Lord embraces with Great Love as The Good Shepherd. However, it does not make for good evangelizing in most cases I don’t think. Although undoubtedly what will speak the very loudest and primarily in the evangelizing stakes is the people that we intrinsically are as Catholics. But problems there I seem to see too

This, it is my thinking, is why we have had so many leave since Vatican2. Many Catholics pre V2 had come to grips with what they believed and why. Suddenly we have a Vatican Council and all this seems to be under threat, even no longer existing in the why’s and wherefores of various matters. It all got too much for many and they left disillusioned, disappointed, even dejected, feeling like abandoned children………that Catholicism was abandoning them, but that God would not…………… and there can be real truth in this too!
As change continues to pervade Catholicism and in very radical even alarming ways…and much change a force of circumstance also…people no longer feel a stable foundation in Catholicism for their lives and living…too many questions unanswered, too many uncertainties without a certainty offered, too much instability - and this is causing people to abandon The Church. And I don’t think they can be blamed. It does not mean necessarily they have lost the Supernatural Gift of Faith…merely that in what it is placed is in question. This may be valid…and it may well be a problem in Catholicism of formation in what we do believe. I heard a very holy priest I respect say something about the crisis everywhere here in Australia in The church…and alarming but perhaps very insightful “Maybe now we will start to find God”.

What is the answer? I really don’t know! Undoubtedly I know The Lord has one. Catholicism is in a process of purgation, or purification, and much needed too I think. How far it will go and what will be the final result and when. The face of the future Catholic Church? Again, I have no idea. I watch and wait with trust, knowing answers may never be in my lifetime.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Okay, AveSantaMaria, you’re clearly an exceptionally kind and loving person so God Bless you!

In response to your question: I do not know. I appreciate that God cannot give us “proof” in any sense of the word except in our hearts - yes I’m well informed in T. Aquinas Faith and Reason in harmony.
I guess some kind of spiritual certainty that many saints talk about, but whatever it takes I haven’t got it.
I should note I am still a practicing Catholic as far as mass attendance and prayer is concerned - even if I don’t feel I have true faith in the Church’s Teaching for to receive Eucharist.

In response to the rosary promise: again, I just don’t know that’s true do I. Sorry to be so critical - I mean no rudeness.

~thanks

I admire your personal integrity and would uphold such for admiration. We need to be true to what is in our hearts or wherever that ground of being exists in the human person and psyche. Poetically of long standing I guess we call it our heart. - we cannot invest in another’s ground of being (I dont think!) and adopt it as our own - although many may do this and no blame to them attached to my mind. Life can indeed be hard, life can be cruel and it can be confusing. We need hopefully to go on the journey of our own lives and all it entails and with courage, fortitude and the sure knowledge, I pray for myself and all, that we will always know that our Loving Father looks upon us with Love and Understanding and Compassion - with Mercy - as our human and faulted selfhood stumbles along searching for our own interior truth and an objective Ultimate Truth…what a quest for such faulted and totally infallible creatures so often swayed this way and that by so much beyond our control, The Lord knows…we may not be able to express it as such - but mostly I think this is very much often what it is all about.

…and life can be fun, it can be joyous and happy, it can be the greatest adventure and challenge we will ever know…midst the difficulties and stumbles midst the painful at times…life is very much about attitude and perspective…choice…

My take only!

.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

So, how on earth do you call yourself a Catholic?

:shamrock2:

What is a Catholic I really wonder…in reality. Is it about what I believe and proclaim or dont proclaim. Or is it about the behaviours I adopt. Or perhaps it is about the person I intrinsically am when I adopt the behaviours I adopt. Or is it something else? Or is it all of them? I know quite a few true blue practising Catholics most loyal to Rome and the Magisterium that I would go to great steps to avoid in my life and in my living of it and perhaps wisely and advisedly so.

Heresy alone undoubtedly, not referring to anyone at all as a heretic, will warrant one being kicked out of The Church i.e. excommunication. Mortal sin is a form of automatic self excommunication also in that one chooses to separate oneself from the community of The Church and also God Himself. But none of this means that God kicks the person out of His Heart and Compassion, Understanding - His Love and His Mercy, of which we are all without exception in dire need.
That is - we are going to strip you of most everything humanly and spiritually, mate, and excommunicate you one way or the other. But rest assured that God loves you and cares for you. My question would be - so how come you have the right to strip me humanly and spiritually of almost everything?

Blessed Mary MacKillop, Aussie of fame and holiness, stated on her excommuncation…“I have never felt closer to God in my whole life”. But ahh feelings, Mary my dear, they are often based on variables, some unconscious http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_11.gif

It can all be most confusing indeed when you really think about it overall trying to actually figure things out for oneself and just being an ordinary person in the street sort of Catholic. …or perhaps I am not a true Catholic with the right to call myself Catholic?

.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Last comment for today you will be relieved to know (6.50pm here in Sth. Aust.) and duty is calling.
Name calling of which “Cafeteria Catholic” is one particularly insulting and derogatory term is a great way to attempt to behaviour modify almost in terms of “Clockwork Orange” and get a person to pull the head in for safety reasons. Hear no evil, see no evil and speak none, is a very good way of getting by with safety of kind through life avoiding the particularly nasties of various kinds.

But difficulties and questions are not doubts. They are complete opposites and not interchangeable. And ten thousand million difficulties and questions can never make one single small doubt.
And even if a person does doubt and is doubting…it can be a journey and process to lasting conviction. St. Paul was not only a denier in fact but also a murderer of The Faithful…but he went on a remarkable journey and process that lead him to be one of the greatest missionaries and theologians in the history of Christianity or The Way as it was first called - a great saint and Catholic and a martyr. And we can never be just too sure of who we actually are sitting next to on the bus as it were.

Even her own sisters in religious and in fact with whom she lived very closely for eight years on a monastic cloister thought of St. Therese of Lisieux as nothing but a good but very ordinary nun. Her autobiography read after her death absolutely blew them all over at her great and absolutely intense holiness. Nope we can never be sure of that person next to us we know so well.

Bon soir and have a great day wherever you are…

Edit: In a previous post I stated “infallible creature” this should have read “fallible creature” and my mistake was nothing but a Freudian slip

.