Is faith a choice?

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

BarbaraTherese, THANK YOU for the wonderful description of what spiritual poverty is!!

I guess that is what the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary means when he says something along the lines of this: “then when you have done all that I have asked, say we are worthless and useless servants, we have only done what our Master commanded” because even the ability to serve and to work and to have good health is a precious gift in and of itself!!

Free information on devoting oneself to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
Online Adoration of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament
louisville-catholic.net/WebCameras/AdorationChapel/tabid/825/Default.aspx
True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin
montfort.org.uk/Writings/TrueDev.html
**Secret of the Rosary ** montfort.org.uk/Writings/Rosary.html
Preparation for 33 day consecration to the Blessed Virgin
saintlouisdemontfort.com/consecration.cfm
Reflections on True Devotion to Mary by His Holiness Pope John Paul II http://www.michaeljournal.org/montfort.htm
**The Glories of Mary, ** by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, one of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church, explains Hail Holy Queen http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories.htm
On the Dolors of Mary by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, one of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church, explains the sufferings of Our Lady http://writer.zoho.com/public/immaculate/Seven-dolors
Marialis Cultus (Apostolic Exhortation for the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary of His Holiness, February 2, 1974 by His Holiness Pope Paul VI
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6MARIAL.HTM
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devotion_to_the_Sacred_Heart_of_Jesus#FIRST_POINT._.E2.80.94_The_ardent_desire_Jesus_Christ_feels_to_be_with_us.
Divine Mercy Chaplet ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm
Rosary Confraternity Enrollment rosary-center.org/nconform.htm (As Pope Leo XIII said in his encyclical on the Confraternity, *“Whenever a person fulfills his obligation of reciting the Rosary according to the rule of the Confraternity, he includes in his intentions all its members and they render him the same service many times over.” * Each member includes deceased fellow members as well; and thus he knows that in turn he will be included in the prayers of hundreds of thousands both now and hereafter.
Cathechism of the Catholic Church vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
Litany of Humility ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/humility.htm

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother. To thee do I come, before thee I kneel, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer them. Amen.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

Of course aptitude and work put into a business by the owner play an important part in a successful business - but Faith tells me that that aptitude and health to be able to work etc. etc. flows from God in the first place and hence belong to Him

So why would God intervene to give someone the resources to be rich, but not bless someone overtly with things like restored limbs? Every time I see Christians mention the “blessings of God” they are always subjective qualities or vague references to the disappearance of mysterious pains etc. Either miracles occur or they do not. Lets be honest about what is really going on.

What I said previously is that God does indeed intervene since all prayers are answered, what God may or may not do is intervene as I or anyone thinks or hopes that He should.

I refer you back to the post I made above the one you quoted from when I invited you to peruse the Bible and note the various promises God makes in the Old and New Testaments. Any reasonable person reading these MUST conclude that God should and would intervene in the lives of Christians quite often. Yet he does not.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Whether reality behaves as I think it should or whether it does not is never a sound logical basis for discerning what is real and what is not real.

If one wishes to address the subject of whether God is real or whether God is not and why God does not behave in ways one thinks God should behave, it probably belongs in another thread and forum. My response to the subject of this thread “Is Faith a Choice?” is that Faith is a pure Gift to whomsoever God may please - and that the Gift of Faith needs to be accepted or chosen by that person and an investment ever renewed.

There is no use answering your Posts any more, Kuzushi, I am very sorry. We are going over ground already covered in this thread and addressed in previous posts andnot on topic anyway.

God’sblessings…Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

Whether reality behaves as I think it should or whether it does not is never a sound logical basis for discerning what is real and what is not real.

Well you have as your source the Bible and the teachings of the Church. Clearly, I have given tons of examples where what is actually going on in the lives of Christians does not adhere to the way Christianity is advertised. Don’t sell humanity short. God gave us common sense and intelligence, and you certainly appear to be a bright person. Use those smarts to see reality rather than how you wish it to be.

Good luck. It was nice posting with you.

 

[kurtmasur]

Can we really control what we believe?

–Rico

My girlfriend comes from an atheist family. In fact, she grew up in one of the former communist countries in Eastern Europe where religion, faith and belief in God were suppressed by the regimes. So pretty much everybody in her society was (and still is) atheist. Yet, when she was a little girl (around 4-5 years old) she began to believe in God suddenly on her own. Nobody had ever spoken to her about God or religion, so it was like a sudden revelation for her. Because of her belief in God, growing up she felt alienated from her family. Not surprisingly she didn’t have an easy childhood nor easy teen years because of this. It wasn’t until her late teens that she finally met other believers for the first time in her life.

When I ask her what exactly did she feel that made her know about God as a little girl, she is unable to explain it in words. It was just a feeling she felt inside and it made her know that a higher power was out there.

What about the rest of you on this forum? Has anybody else felt similar experiences?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

My girlfriend comes from an atheist family. In fact, she grew up in one of the former communist countries in Eastern Europe where religion, faith and belief in God were suppressed by the regimes. So pretty much everybody in her society was (and still is) atheist. Yet, when she was a little girl (around 4-5 years old) she began to believe in God suddenly on her own. Nobody had ever spoken to her about God or religion, so it was like a sudden revelation for her. Because of her belief in God, growing up she felt alienated from her family. Not surprisingly she didn’t have an easy childhood nor easy teen years because of this. It wasn’t until her late teens that she finally met other believers for the first time in her life.

When I ask her what exactly did she feel that made her know about God as a little girl, she is unable to explain it in words. It was just a feeling she felt inside and it made her know that a higher power was out there.

What about the rest of you on this forum? Has anybody else felt similar experiences?

What a beautiful story and thank you for sharing it!

My story is not so dramatic. My mother used to say that I was religious before I opened my eyes and that “God” was my first word. I think this was all really poetic licence of a mother and not to be taken literally, although for as long as I can remember anyway I have believed in and had a relationship with The Lord - but then I was raised in a Catholic family. Certainly I had an unusual understanding of some matters connected to Faith and spirituality from very young, which was remarked by the nuns that taught me in my early years in school. Later in my college years, the nuns noted on my school reference that “she has strength of Faith unusual in girls of her age”. I believe that God thus gifted because of the very difficult road that was to be my journey in life and The Lord always gifts Graces for what is necessary for life and no matter the course life may take.

Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

When I ask her what exactly did she feel that made her know about God as a little girl, she is unable to explain it in words. It was just a feeling she felt inside and it made her know that a higher power was out there.

“Feelings” are unreliable and are often not logical. What she most likely had was a HOPE that there is a God. Wishing just does not make it so.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

“Feelings” are unreliable and are often not logical. What she most likely had was a HOPE that there is a God. Wishing just does not make it so.

Reality with great simplicity simply is - to reflect what God said to Moses on being asked who He was “I Am Who Am”. Perspectives and attitudes about reality cannot create nor destroy that reality in its simplicity - cannot add to nor take away from it…any perspective or attitudehttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_12.gif

Religion is a group of perspectives and attitudes about reality. And the lack of religion and religous belief is simply another group of perspectives and attitudes about reality…and a sort of ‘religion’ of its own it could be said since it is a ‘a belief/group of beliefs’ about reality.

Over and above that is what reality is in itself.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

You are right Kuzushi that feelings are unreliable. St. Faustina says a similar thing in her diary, Divine Mercy in My Soul.

The enlightened mind sees clearly and distinguishes the various degrees of the spiritual life. It recognizes (that state) when its union with God was imperfect; where the senses were involved, and the spirit was linked with the senses in a manner - exalted and special, to be sure - but not yet perfect. There is a higher and more perfect union with God; namely, intellectual union. Here, the soul is safer from illusions; its spirituality is purer and more profound. In a life where the senses are involved, there is more danger of illusion. Both for the soul and for its confessor, prudence must play a great part. There are moments when God introduces the soul to a purely spiritual state. The senses dim and are seemingly dead. The soul is most closely united to God; it is immersed in the Deity; its knowledge is complete and perfect, not sporadic as before, but total and absolute. It rejoices in this. But I want to say more about those moments of trial; at those times the confessor must have patience with such a soul. But the soul must have even greater patience with itself.

saint-faustina.com/Diary/DMIMS3.shtml

Thank you for posting on I AM WHO I AM, BarbaraTherese. In my own spiritual life sometimes I feel like a Jonah who deeply believes in the LORD and I have been reflecting a lot on how the LORD’s will is the LORD’s will so maybe I better get with the picture. Have you read any of the Jewish or Catholic texts on Jonah, BarbaraTherese? May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary bless and keep you!

Might anyone have read this newspaper article by the New York Times on the Marian apparitions in Kibeho, Rwanda predicting the Rwandan genocide before it happened? query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E4D81738F93BA35757C0A96F958260

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hello ASM…Yes, I am familiar with the story of Jonah and have a working knowledge of Scripture I think.

May God every bless you and yours also…Barb

 

[Kuzushi]

Religion is a group of perspectives and attitudes about reality.

Then how are you or any other religious person supposed to be certain about anything? Can we then say that suicidal Moslem extremist who blow up a bus load off innocents are correct because they perceive that god really does want them to do this terrible thing? I reject your entire thesis if this is what you mean.

“Feelings” are based upon human emotions. I have no problem with emotions per se because they make being human enjoyable. Emotions can be a driving force for good. I just do not advocate making serious decisions based upon feelings alone. I also do not accept emotions as “proof.”

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Then how are you or any other religious person supposed to be certain about anything? Can we then say that suicidal Moslem extremist who blow up a bus load off innocents are correct because they perceive that god really does want them to do this terrible thing? I reject your entire thesis if this is what you mean.

Perspectives and attitudes are based usually on various matters including logical reasonings about reality. Perhaps even experiential knowledge. Perpsectives and attitudes can be based on various matters some of which are sound, some unsound.

Of course I do not mean that a belief or grouping of beliefs and perspectives and attitudes about reality are therefore necessarily correct and true. Ovbiously if one group believes one thing and another something else about reality, one of these groups has to be wrong in the ‘correct and true stakes’. And I certainly do not subscribe to terrorist religious theories and claim they are very wrong indeed and are against God.

“Feelings” are based upon human emotions. I have no problem with emotions per se because they make being human enjoyable. Emotions can be a driving force for good. I just do not advocate making serious decisions based upon feelings alone. I also do not accept emotions as “proof"

I commented on the above and feelings quite some time back in this Post, which is why I was not commenting again:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4483616&postcount=191

In short and as I have already said quite some time back, feelings and emotions are not reliable sole guides to reality especially, nor make a good sole basis for decision making since they are based on many variables. Emotions and feelings however are important and tell me in part who I am in relation to reality - for one.

Barb

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese View Post
Religion is a group of perspectives and attitudes about reality.

Then how are you or any other religious person supposed to be certain about anything? Can we then say that suicidal Moslem extremist who blow up a bus load off innocents are correct because they perceive that god really does want them to do this terrible thing? I reject your entire thesis if this is what you mean.

We (religious people) are certain about religious things dependent on the source of our religious information.

Only the Catholic religious source is the correct one, therefore making decisions (religious/moral/ethical) based on anything other than that source is using bad religious information, and will produce bad results.

Thus, the moslem extremist are incorrect in blowing up buses due to his/her bad decision making process.

“Feelings” are based upon human emotions. … I just do not advocate making serious decisions based upon feelings alone. I also do not accept emotions as “proof.”

Catholics are specifically commanded NOT to make decisions, religious or otherwise, based on feelings alone.

We don’t accept emotions as proof of anything, other than as a reaction to some “emotional” stimulus.

You seem to think that there are two types of experience:
*) materialistic/“reasonable” evidence
*) nonsense which isn’t “evidence” at all

You refuse to admit to the third type:
*) divine revelation (public and private) (from God, obviously )

Why are you even HERE if you don’t accept revelation as a possibility? Just trying to proselytize for the “church of atheism”?

:shamrock2:

 

[kurtmasur]

“Feelings” are unreliable and are often not logical. What she most likely had was a HOPE that there is a God. Wishing just does not make it so.

I guess. But nevertheless she was always sure of God’s presence (i.e. his existence). Even when others would try to dissuade her against her beliefs, she held firmly on to them. Considering this concerns the beliefs of a little girl with nobody else to tell her about God, I think this suggests this goes well beyond having just mere human feelings of hope.

 

[Kuzushi]

Of course I do not mean that a belief or grouping of beliefs and perspectives and attitudes about reality are therefore necessarily correct and true. Ovbiously if one group believes one thing and another something else about reality, one of these groups has to be wrong in the ‘correct and true stakes’. And I certainly do not subscribe to terrorist religious theories and claim they are very wrong indeed and are against God.

Okay, but you did originally write: “Religion is a group of perspectives and attitudes about reality.” I occasionally encounter posters who SEEM to be saying something extreme, but when I ask them for clarification they almost change their viewpoint. I often suspect that people who do this really have extremist viewpoints, but when someone re-states what they said they suddenly realize they have gone too far. I am not saying that this is you, but I have trouble reconciling what your first post said with what you are writing above.

For example, in one of our prior exchanges you said that money really does not belong to rich people, and they must share it with others. That sounds like you are advocating socialist wealth re-distribution policies. Later you played your original contention down. Again, I am not being argumentative, but rather I am just trying to figure out where you are really coming from.

 

[Kuzushi]

You seem to think that there are two types of experience:
*) materialistic/“reasonable” evidence
*) nonsense which isn’t “evidence” at all

You refuse to admit to the third type:
*) divine revelation (public and private) (from God, obviously )

People who claim to have had “divine revelation” have done some terrible things throughout history. Do you think that you somehow have a direct and excusive pipeline to the almighty? That kind of thinking frankly scares me! As I have already asked; if all these miracles are being performed please show me the PROVEN case where a severed limb has been restored. This should be an easy thing to do if God works in the way you say.

Why are you even HERE if you don’t accept revelation as a possibility? Just trying to proselytize for the “church of atheism”?

I am trying to discern the truth. An omnipotent omnipresent supernatural being performing miracles would be wonderful. I am just looking for one of these “miracles.” I also think you should ask yourself if all you want in this forum is like minded people saying “right on you are so brilliant,” or do you want the occasional poster who questions the norm? Are you afraid of something? Why ask why?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
Of course I do not mean that a belief or grouping of beliefs and perspectives and attitudes about reality are therefore necessarily correct and true. Ovbiously if one group believes one thing and another something else about reality, one of these groups has to be wrong in the ‘correct and true stakes’. And I certainly do not subscribe to terrorist religious theories and claim they are very wrong indeed and are against God.

Okay, but you did originally write: “Religion is a group of perspectives and attitudes about reality.” I occasionally encounter posters who SEEM to be saying something extreme, but when I ask them for clarification they almost change their viewpoint. I often suspect that people who do this really have extremist viewpoints, but when someone re-states what they said they suddenly realize they have gone too far. I am not saying that this is you, but I have trouble reconciling what your first post said with what you are writing above.

For example, in one of our prior exchanges you said that money really does not belong to rich people, and they must share it with others. That sounds like you are advocating socialist wealth re-distribution policies. Later you played your original contention down. Again, I am not being argumentative, but rather I am just trying to figure out where you are really coming from.

Unless you quote actual details or posts or the link, I cannot be sure of to what you may be referrring re what I may have stated previously; however, religion very obviously is a group of perspectives and/or attitudes about reality…and it goes without saying and is again obvious that these groups of beliefs are either true or false, accurage or inaccurate understandings of reality.

Beats me truly why you have problems with what I originally stated and my later underscoring and spelling out the obvious about that statement. I think you may be clutching at straws.

Of course money does not belong to the rich, from my perspective, since all good flows from God who is the owner - we only stewards to repeat what I said before. I do hold however that the rich do have obligations towards the genuinely poor…this however remains of their own personal free choice and decision and volition and accountability and responsibility (according to level of insight) of good stewardship. The rest of your statements are your own conclusions about what I said. Please do quote Posts with links or details of the actual post, reference details, as I would not play down any of my statements anywhere unless I was up front and stating I was actually playing them down and giving reasons. I’m that sort of a person - my Catholicism and stewardship of God’s Truth asks it. Without quoting reference details of my Posts, all conclusions remain simply that, your own conclusions which may be correct, or may be incorrect…but certainly only conclusions that are not good source references for accurate information necessarily.

Rather than playing things down, I am at deliberate elaborate pains to try to get you to insight what it is I am actually saying, which either rightly or wrongly you seem to have problems grasping.

Where am I coming from…from a Catholic perspective…I wont be contributing to this thread again very possibly, as it is just round and round in circles and a waste of time with some on one side of the fence and others on the other side and neither prepared to concede anything, or very little…and simply because we are each coming from totally different perspectives and attitudes about reality and hold to these…Barb

 

[Gertabelle]

Can we really control what we believe?

–Rico

Faith is a choice. I have very little in the way of emotional experience with God. My senses are of little help, since I cannot experience God with my senses (separate from faith in the Blessed Sacrament).

Like love, faith is not an emotion. And, like love, faith is a commitment, it is a choice, it is the underlying source of our actions.

Just my two, sleepy cents…

Gert

 

[Michael_David]

Faith is a choice. I have very little in the way of emotional experience with God. My senses are of little help, since I cannot experience God with my senses (separate from faith in the Blessed Sacrament).

Like love, faith is not an emotion. And, like love, faith is a commitment, it is a choice, it is the underlying source of our actions.

Just my two, sleepy cents…

Gert

Why can’t faith and love be felt on the ‘emotional’ level? I believe it can. If it is the “underlying source” of certain actions, why then doesn’t it come to the surface as emotions in it’s very wholeness of being?

Feelings and emotions are driven from sources within and without… how are they to be simply disregarded as irrelevant to anything else? They do not exist in a vacuum, they are coming from somewhere… where? Faith can stir the whole body, feelings and emotions too, as can love… should the intellect simply rationalize them away as nothing to pay attention to… thereby nullifying the full effect of either?

Aren’t we whole beings? Body, mind and spirit (soul)? What is it worth to live only in the body, or only in the mind… while dismissing the soul as nothing that can be trusted? Faith and love reside in the soul… what is one missing in life by not letting it have full effect on our being? The intellect can reason what faith or love is… but it does not feel it nor spark the emotions to know it, this comes from the soul.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
You seem to think that there are two types of experience:
*) materialistic/“reasonable” evidence
*) nonsense which isn’t “evidence” at all

You refuse to admit to the third type:
*) divine revelation (public and private) (from God, obviously )

People who claim to have had “divine revelation” have done some terrible things throughout history.

Yes. So? Having wrongly attributed supposedly divine revelation is not an impossibility. Acting wrongly, according to ACTUAL divine revelation, on that BAD INFO is what makes it WRONG!

It is WRONG (bad) because it is wrong, not because it is based on an attributed “divine revelation”. The actual reason that it is wrong is because it is contrary to the dictates of ACTUAL divine revelation (public or verified-against-the-Church private revelation).

Do you think that you somehow have a direct and excusive pipeline to the almighty?

I do, actually.

It is through the Church. I have no personal Me-to-God pipeline that I can trust, of course, as any info I get from God via my private revelation must be checked against the understanding of the public revelation of the Church.

That kind of thinking frankly scares me!

How is that any scarier than someone like yourself who can decide “authoritatively for yourself” what is and isn’t evil or good?

I have to check my private revelations against the massive inertia of the 2000 year old “buffalo” of the Church.

You can turn on a dime, with no accountability whatsoever! Your idea of “moral decision making” is MUCH more scary to me than mine should be to you.

As I have already asked; if all these miracles are being performed please show me the PROVEN case where a severed limb has been restored.

So, once again it comes down to “God must be (and do) as I say or I won’t believe in Him!”

Since we (Catholics) are commanded to pray for the salvation for those who won’t do it for themselves, you’ve got my prayers mo chara.

This should be an easy thing to do if God works in the way you say.

Then you, once again, have utterly misunderstood how God works “in the way I say”.

Not particularly surprising. You’ve obviously QUITE A BIT at stake in your ill informed conceptions being true, which is not unusual for one of your “distant communion” with the Church.

I’m not here to convert you. Only you can convert you. You’ve shown that you’re not listening to understand what we’re saying, but only ranting against what you hear so as to drown out the truth so that you don’t have to “deal with it”.

Best to you.

:shamrock2: